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DevBlog: The Maneuver Tool and Disconnecting Ships - DUscussion thread

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Last night I warped. I'd got 1/3rd of the way to my destination when the game stalled.

 

I'm in the EU and this was around midnight UTC, so I believe more server resource sent to other side of Atlantic?

 

I ended up out of game after around five to ten minutes of frozen screen, just so I could get some progress, which was slow boating my cargo back to Sanctuary.

 

Anyway, my question is, what happens to me in the post update world in that scenario? 

 

Do I log back in, not in my pilot seat, with my ship travelling at warp speed? 

 

Will the ship carry me along at that speed, or am I likely to fall off if I'm on a hover seat or command chair that isn't enclosed?

 

Will my ship brake the way it normally does in a warp jump, or do I now crash into a planet at warp speed, as no amount of turn and burn or retro brakes will slow me down from that speed to anything resembling a safe speed? 

 

Oh, and thanks for trying to fix manuever tool and logout issues, but it does sound very much like fixing one issue is creating others here. 

 

On the journey out we warped with a space only dynamic core and deployed the landing craft, with space only held on ECU. 

 

The docking failed and I had to chase the lander. When I finally caught up to it it was 18km away from the space core. 

 

The only thing that stopped us crashing was that I'd used manuever to hold the ship in place when we noticed it falling, while my friend filled up the fuel tanks.

 

Fix docking before nerfing manuever please. :)

 

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Just now, Doommachine said:

THIS^  What happens if you log out when engaged in PVP or being perused and not even fired on yet?  This could be so game breaking I would just give up playing.  There has to be no way to do this if there is even a ship within 2 SU of you!  Maybe you don't have to use more fuel but now the person perusing you has to fully brake then never be able to catch you again because you shoot right back up to full speed.   INSANITY!

As was already said ...The ship you are chasing will not stop when they alt+f4 because your presence keeps them moving even when they are longed off .

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The changes seem a bit excessive for the maneuver tool, only being able to lift the ship slightly will not cut it in some of the harsher terrain with peaks and valleys etc. Wreck recovery will suffer from these maneuver tool changes. It often takes more than the tool limit height to recover wrecks. With these changes I assume it will be even more difficult. The coming back to the game from a disconnect while flying change seems like a really bad idea to me. I don't have  a current modern PC this game does not load up in a timely fashion for me. This will result in "X" amount of faith flying until the game actually loads up. Probably not a huge problem for someone with the latest hardware but for me that will be difficult.  

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2 minutes ago, Emptiness said:

The proposed changes would keep the forward speed of the ship when you log back in.


Now, the question is: is the speed kept when you log in, or when you get back into the control seat?

Or it will crash me into the market because there is always someone at market and control of physics will switch to someone.

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1 minute ago, XKentX said:

Or it will crash me into the market because there is always someone at market and control of physics will switch to someone.

but at least you will be at a market to replace the modules that exploded because of game issues

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9 minutes ago, XKentX said:

Scenario 1) you crash when flying heavy ship in atmosphere (usually near market)

If you login you don't have forward speed so you fall down a little and alt+f4 to stop it again. Repeat until you are safely landed and take off.

 

Scenario 2) You kill a ship, he stops instantly, you alt+f4 to follow his maneuver. There is no other way.

 

Scenario 3) You get up from your seat at 30,000 km in space. When you sit down you get script error. Game unloads part of your ship at high speed. The only way to get back in control I found is to alt+f4 it will stop the ship and i can enter seat without getting script error. Yea i lose fuel but at least i can get control of the ship.

 

Fix those issues then disable alt+f4 or disconnect stops. 

 

Currently it will make more problems than it fixes.

You're the best. Thank you for this explanation! 

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2 hours ago, TheGeek said:

If I can't maneuver tool the voxel board that Yeeted itself 10km away back to my base, then what do I do? Fix game breaking bugs before nerfing the tools we would use to compensate for those bugs.

The Alt-F4 was used to compensate for flaky mechanics. Fix your game before nerfing the tools we use to make this game bearable to play.

 

And nearly nobody travels at sublight speeds anymore, EVERYONE warps. So this nerfing of Alt-F4 only hurts those trying to not have to repair their ships over and over because of game-breaking bugs. And combined with the fact that elements will have a fixed repair amount, you are going to have people ragequitting in droves...

Agreed.  NQ’s arrogant (or just willfully optimistic) comments in their release notes always make me smile.. I’m working from memory here, but one of them was something along the lines of,   “fetch tool removed because it is no longer necessary since we fixed the bugs.”  Hahahaaahahhhahaha funny stuff. 

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I'm curious - I've been seeing a lot of chatter about the 50m restriction; some players really want this increased, and others are saying "no, please leave it at 50!!".

What are the arguments for/against having the 50m restriction?

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5 minutes ago, Doommachine said:

Also what are you supposed to do when your ship decides to start drifting off towards the planet when you had the ECU set but it unloads on you and you have to chase it with your jetpack several KM to try to grab it.  Then it keeps moving again because it's broken

 

18km I chased a ship falling to a planet three days ago. Kinda glad it's not just me the ECU does this to, but yes, they need to fix this first.

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About the maneuver tool: 

 

When you park your XS on say M core and all this when standing on your L core runway xs attaches to runway. There is no UI to say what you want to attach to. So i dance with maneuver tool until i ensure they docked properly or there is a big chance they can blow up when i start piloting. 

 

It doesn't matter much if i land xs on m or maneuver tool it there. I usually need to lift the M core above my runway and only then somehow maneuver tool the xs on top of it. It's really random or something. I had M core just blow up once when i entered seat.

 

50m maneuver tool will make this even worse.

 

No one abuses maneuver tool, why even fix anything there ?

 

 

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55 minutes ago, Apillion said:

I heard there is a talent rest coming..  ^^  NQ caters for everyone hehe..

Well since each size of core allows/allowed you to move a core further even with an M class Dynamic core 4-5 pushes was like 1km. I dont know about anyone else here but with the insanely low distance on container range and strip mined resrources on various moons/planets I was not about to constantly waste gas bounding around from tile to tile or hopping regions just to find ore. I just walked the ship from tile to tile. And mining even with a small crew of 4 was basically impossible on any sustained scale since you basically are forced to park between 2-3 tiles and have each person take a tile since for whatever reason people next to each other lags the hell out of this game for each of us. So dropping exp into the talent used to be worth it but if this change goes in it is no longer even necessary to even have the talent.

 

It aint my fault most moons/plaents I go to are swiss cheese strip mined out wastelands, I just roll with NQ punching me in the face constantly with bad game design.

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2 minutes ago, NQ-Naunet said:

I'm curious - I've been seeing a lot of chatter about the 50m restriction; some players really want this increased, and others are saying "no, please leave it at 50!!".

What are the arguments for/against having the 50m restriction?

shipwreck recovery and crashing in craters and or valleys, moving ships around at your base. 50m is not much distance. Wrecked ships are often 50+ meters in the air and you have to resort to terraforming in order to reach the ship. I understand your need to address the problem in question but the maneuver tool barely works as it is.   

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1 minute ago, XKentX said:

When you park your XS on say M core and all this when standing on your L core runway xs attaches to runway. There is no UI to say what you want to attach to. So i dance with maneuver tool until i ensure they docked properly or there is a big chance they can blow up when i start piloting. 

Another variant of this is you land one core too close to a smaller core on a space station landing platform, and when you fly off later you look around and see the smaller core attached itself to you and you've now hijacked it. ;) 

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9 minutes ago, NQ-Naunet said:

I'm curious - I've been seeing a lot of chatter about the 50m restriction; some players really want this increased, and others are saying "no, please leave it at 50!!".

What are the arguments for/against having the 50m restriction?

You need experience to sort out the genuine responses from the trolls who just want to incite heated 'discussion'.

 

 

The problem with 50m is that it's a universal constant when core sizes are so wildly disparate.

 

For an XS core, 16m max length, it's fine. 3x the length.

 

For an S core, 32m max length, it's still fine, but starting to get iffy. 1.5x length.

 

For an M core, 64m max length, it's now less than the max size of the ship. I foresee problems arising.

 

For an L core, 128m max length, it's now less than half the max size of the ship. I foresee significant problems arising.

 

And XL cores are planned, 256m max length. 50m would be less than a FIFTH of that.

 

 

My personal opinion is that maneuver tool "max movement distance per unit time" should be 3-4x the size of the core being maneuvered.

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1 minute ago, NQ-Naunet said:

I'm curious - I've been seeing a lot of chatter about the 50m restriction; some players really want this increased, and others are saying "no, please leave it at 50!!".

What are the arguments for/against having the 50m restriction?

I have a hangar that is 2 large cores. as it is now I have to move something 7 to 10 times even with skilled move tool to get across the hangar. Some of my ships are more than 50m tall. To move something on top of it now is a pain. 

 

Moving libraries and other tools to where I'm working is important because it's efficient. I don't rly know about any exploiting but I'm not sure what benefit a distance limitation would have serverside. Why 50m is the real question. Why not 200m. Is there a technical limitation?  

 

But it seems one of the patches broke the move tool and every time you move something it's a crap shoot if it's going to explode and fly off. Hence the large amount of port requests.  

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everything look nice, maybe I some case ALT-F4 is use to sole a probleme, but in 99% of the case it's use as a bug exploit (and I'm the first to use it to avoid a 20min braking befor landing)

 

but what happen to a destroyed ship, does it stop when it get out of range of every player arround, and we can come back close it  will never restore speed and rotation ?
 

 

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7 minutes ago, Aranol said:

everything look nice, maybe I some case ALT-F4 is use to sole a probleme, but in 99% of the case it's use as a bug exploit (and I'm the first to use it to avoid a 20min braking befor landing)

 

but what happen to a destroyed ship, does it stop when it get out of range of every player arround, and we can come back close it  will never restore speed and rotation ?
 

 

Fixing 20minute breaking avoidance exploit doesn't justify ruining ships due to disconnects/crashes and removing workaround around other problems

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2 minutes ago, XKentX said:

Fixing 20minute breaking avoidance exploit doesn't justify ruining ships due to disconnects/crashes

OTOH, ships stopping mid journey and wasting the fuel used to accelerate them is infuriating.

 

How do we solve both problems?

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Flight anywhere near major markets right now will be more of an issue because of this (crashing out mid-flight because you cant load it all), but that is more the result of how overcrowded those locations are than it is unloading the physics. People can fly carefully and use an ECU like the rest of us already do when multi-crewing in to those areas.The only real questions I've seen so far for the speed fix will be related to pvp:


-"Will someone that has a ship locked continue to load its physics?" 
If the physics can be paused while a ship is being shot at, then it can be used to force a pursuer to burn huge amounts of fuel and/or lose a target entirely via the following: 
1) Pursued ship uses a logout-pause.

2) Pursuing ship slams on their own brakes and/or uses a retro-burn to slow down to keep the target on radar, possibly overshooting the ship they were chasing and forcing them to burn back toward the target.

3) Pursued ship's pilot logs back in and their ship instantly re-accelerates to its previous speed, forcing their pursuers to expend fuel to perform possibly another retro-burn and then re-accelerate after the ship they are chasing, possibly losing their target entirely as they are incapable of the same acceleration.

Solution: To prevent this I'd suggest that physics are kept loaded by people that have locked the ship.

 

-"Will a ship that has been killed continue to drift every time someone tries to get close to it?"
If the answer is yes, then pirating in space goes out the window for anything other than griefing, as pirates will not be able to raid a destroyed ship for parts (because it is effectively impossible to get in to the same loaded area as a drifting ship at even 4000kph due to frame of reference issues), and players will be unable to recover their destroyed ships because the ship will move when they get close to it and because it is effectively impossible to get in to the same loaded area as a drifting ship due to frame of reference issues.

Solution: To prevent this I'd suggest that the ship is stopped if its core is destroyed when in less than 1% atmosphere.

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Ah, and before I forget, will there be a method of preventing "loading traps" where in ya get in to an area and are suddenly rammed by a storm of logout-paused speeders that someone got away from via the "force respawn on login" function?

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Excellent news. We have been waiting for this for a long time.

However, a few points remain to be clarified.


I could make a long list of exploits that our small group of players have already imagined / planned to take advantage of your new mechanics.


To know how far these workarounds can go, there is a big question that needs to be answered clearly :

 

- When a group of players disconnects from one of their ships (the pilot and other people on board).
What will happen if a person unrelated to them arrives at the scene for several minutes (hours or days)?
Will the ship regain speed when we are within construction range?
Or will it stay completely still because we are strangers to the crew that flew it when it stopped?

 

This is really a very important question, once we get an answer we could send you a good (non-exhaustive) list of the possible workarounds we see for either method.

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13 minutes ago, Emptiness said:

OTOH, ships stopping mid journey and wasting the fuel used to accelerate them is infuriating.

 

How do we solve both problems?

You talk fuel i talk replacing all elements of the ship as crash means total loss next patch

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Underwater I used the Maneuver tool when mining (before AGG.) The only alternative is to popup all the way out of the water, fly, then go all the way back down. Maybe fix ships underwater so that they go down with C and up with SPACE, and can only "fly" very very slowly.

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