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Permanent Bubble? They nuts?


EntropicDuck
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The magic safe zone destroys the sand box and eventually kills the game, other than people logging on to create art projects.

 

Real fighting is confined to areas outside the bubble that are small. They are then what amounts to a slap fight in which one side is going to take advantage of exploits to get their ship to safety because they don't want to face consequences should they start to lose.

 It's annoying that as the big draw of space battle is forced further and further into a corner, people are fawning over territorial warfare and planetary fighting. And what's going to happen is, sure that there's going to be territorial warfare, but then the goal post will be moved again.  The creative lithovores start crying that Space City 1 is under attack, then they put in place a whole slew of stupid rules and mechanics to make the game protect them because they are too antisocial to protect themselves.

The other day on the main discord, I was watching the chat roll, and the most badass discussions I thought came up about people having to convoy their ships to defend each other! Massive emergent gaming is the concept of people banning together to face a common threat! Each rule or modification to appease the players who want to exert power over their environments that they have not won prevents individuals from grouping up in reality. It causes individuals not to want to be social.  Every inch ground the developers offer to the nerdlings who want to create their super duper death star in "peace", ruins the game for hundreds in the future.

 

1.) At the top of the development list, addressing the exploits in PVP should be ranked. As there is no PVE, PVP is what is going to push this game. And it would be an easy win. You don't need people to be programmed.

 

2.) Second on the list should be PVP balancing. It's got to remain a challenge, I guess. The curve for learning must be steep. And that's what makes it interesting! It provides people with the need to be innovative. But it should also be engaging and stimulating.

 

3.) The bubble has to go down. The only protected place is the Sanctuary Moon and the space surrounding it.

 

4.) Get the PVP right in space, then think about territorial warfare and PVP in the atmosphere.

 

People want voxel tools and all that stuff, though I would personally think that addressing this and things like the whole voxelmancy crap and actually incorporating it into the game would be fantastic. To foster team play and rivalry, it does NOTHING. The PVP will drive the game. It is the entropy that makes it possible for industry.

This was my long winded way of saying the JC interview was frustrating.  

 

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The safe zone started out as just a small portion of Alioth around the Arkship until carebears begged and cried and threatened to quit the game until devs caved in, all because they want to avoid any confrontation while also harvesting ores by the millions.

Put the game into creative mode so people don't have to leave their Sanctuary hugbox and let them play the building simulator they always wanted, who needs player interaction anyway?

Mastema takes a look at the kindergarten bubble.png

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There is 4 principal (and interconnected) reasons for this state of affairs currently:

 

1) NQ extreamly nervous on "attractivness" for new players, so they hecticly overdoing easy/safe mode.

2) Low development resources of NQ -- PvP is very hungry part, so any progress will be painfully slow (up to years upon years). Even if they want to improve something, they can't right now.

3) "Landmark lobby", that, generaly now comprise "shadow CMS" of DU and have most influence over decisions made (as far players can influence them).

3.1) Just a pinch of old good nepotism that starting to be noticeble.

4) JC himself, while great guy (and made this game for us!), I think lately saying/doing quite... misguided things over development.

 

In complex all this lead to quite of degradation of Kickstarter-era grand ambition of game to some cringy/swampy reality of Landmark in space. Yet, good news: its probably temporal and reversable with right additions of content/game rules and some purging of sins.

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The only hook this game has to impress a newbie is getting to their second planet under their own power, to see the actual scale of the game.   That’s not really something most newbies will pull off with just a Sanctuary Moon as the safe zone, considering that the moon is .6SU wide meaning it’s smaller than radar visibility range (for would be hunters).

 

considering how poorly and obviously poorly designed PvP is, I’m surprised that there are PvP fans that want Territory Control to roll out every where.   Seriously what does “gold is the best armor”, look like in a Territory Control system?  

 

likewise considering how well the recent aerospace show went,  it does a really good job at showing that there is a good number of “PvE players”.   So many ships that would be utterly pointless in PvP, along with the ships obviously designed by people that would quit rather quickly if a sanctuary moon was their only play area.

 

 

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The questions I have are:

 

Why are "PVP oriented players" so focused on being able to target those who have no counter/recourse? Are you looking for kills more than fight maybe?

 

Why is it that on a good number of occasions, a ship approaching me on an intercept course would turn tail and run as soon as I start moving in their general direction instead of staying on my intended heading? Are you afraid to actually encounter a fight maybe?

 

 

It's been well established by now that, while they may be the loudest, The player base looking for pewpew is in fact the minority. Not meant in a bad way but it is.

It appears to me that based on what many of these complain about, if the creatives and non combatant players would leave, there is nothing left for these players to do or shoot at.

 

The notion of fleets and escorts in game is not viable as there is n way for a fleet to move as a unit. Also If there were to be escorts, this would in effect do the same as using warp as you would not be interested in engaging due to the fact you may actually lose a fight and you are more interested in the kill.

 

 

Non combatant players right now choose the expensive route of Warp drives because there are no counters in the game to avoid being shot at. There is no deflection, jamming, stealth, decoys, flares, chaff. Saying "just bring friend and load guns" is not a viable options as this means losing room for cargo and generally being less cost effective than adding  a Warp Drive in the first place. And again, many "PVP players" would actually not engage if they find they may actually draw the short straw in a fight.

 

DU is not, and was never designed to be, a combat centric game. It plays a role in the game for sure, and is important as a pillar of the game, but it is not what the game is all about and anyone who has the expectation is is, should be or will be choose the wrong game to play.

 

Territory Warfare will favor the defenders versus the attackers, yes. I have no doubt NQ will implement EVE style mechanics which will prevent offline base raiding and allow for time zone co-ordination when getting into fights.

 

 

All that said, and while I personally have no interest in combat at all, I do agree that the choice to now let the existing Alioth/Madis/Thades safezone triangle in place is not good for the game and effectively creates a game within a game. It creates a whole set of new problems which I fear NQ has not considered yet and is a massive surrender of their initial vision for the game towards the creative part of the community, I think because they do not really know how to otherwise safeguard this group remaining in game. What may play into this is that NQ knows that this group is both bigger, gives them more exposure and may well be inclined to spend more money in the coming cosmetics cash shop than the PVP oriented player base which from a business POV does make sense.

 

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Stop blaming other players for the fact that NQ hasn't designed their game yet.

 

It is up to NQ to make good decisions, and I'm sick of people just deflecting blame onto a group of players they have a personal issue with. 

 

If you want to blame someone for "ruining" the game, blame NQ for putting virtually no thought into the design details of this game. The balance between building and PvP obviously needed careful consideration. Don't blame "carebears" for their utter lack of foresight. It's funny how NQ listens to no one ever....but when they make decisions you don't like, it's somehow the carebears' fault? 

 

Stop it with all the deflection and bashing "nerdlings" -- it's completely childish and devoid of any shred of logic. How about you hold the party solely responsible for making decisions responsible for their own decisions like adults instead of throwing tantrums blaming other consumers that have paid their fair share to enjoy the game...? 

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The people who insist on ONLY building eye candy are the actual minority and anyone other than alliance players is encouraged by game mechanics to mine their own ore as well as build their own factories and ships. You keep bashing the elusive PvP sicko mode gamer when the real PvP-focused people are dumping their parts at the same markets as you and building their own ships.  Nevermind the fact that warp is broken as hell so even if the entire system was safe, only noobs would be wasting time on manual flight.

2 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

And the problem with building vs destroying is that when it takes 5 minutes to destroy months of work, builders leave the game.

Then just don't build outside Sanctuary? It isn't and will never be subject to demolition so you can build your MLP statues or what have you and no one will bat an eyelid.

12 minutes ago, michaelk said:

I'm sick of people just deflecting blame onto a group of players they have a personal issue with. 

How's that radical centrism working out for you? Are you sure NQ just don't know what they are doing and aren't listening to any group in particular?  I, too, remember the time when PvP enthusiasts begged NQ to stretch the safe zone until you could build anything with safe zone resources. Yep, good times.

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5 minutes ago, dumpeet said:

How's that radical centrism working out for you? Are you sure NQ just don't know what they are doing and aren't listening to any group in particular?  I, too, remember the time when PvP enthusiasts begged NQ to stretch the safe zone until you could build anything with safe zone resources. Yep, good times.

Right. Holding a company responsible for the decisions they make with their own property is somehow radical, whereas whining and crying about how "carebears" somehow "made" NQ do something is reasonable...? 

 

Give. Me. A. Break. 

 

Whining about how NQ isn't listening to you is a lot more "carebear" than people that prefer building to PvP.

 

It's utter madness to react to a decision made by a game dev by blaming other players for that decision. If anyone is a sensitive snowflake that can't handle reality, it's people that come here to whine about "carebears" and noobs instead of realizing the obvious fact that it's NQ's game and they are the only ones with the power to make decisions about it. If you think they are listening to any one group (which is amusing because they don't listen to anyone) it's their decision to do so. 

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5 minutes ago, michaelk said:

Whining about how NQ isn't listening to you is a lot more "carebear" than people that prefer building to PvP.

Why do you insist on joining discussions on subjects you know nothing about? Carebear is a slang term that is used to refer to a video gamer who avoids violence and competition.

9 minutes ago, michaelk said:

It's utter madness to react to a decision made by a game dev by blaming other players for that decision.

Just because you aren't aware of ATV and other groups that affect NQ's decision making doesn't mean they don't exist. You can do your own research by lurking or asking in #discussion on the official Discord server because I am not here to spoonfeed you.

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A non-pvp zone helps every player:
Non-PvP players know where they can safely move.

PvP players know where they find players that are (more or less) ready for PvP, which is important, because who wants to accedentially engage with another player who doesn't want any pvp?

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55 minutes ago, dumpeet said:

Why do you insist on joining discussions on subjects you know nothing about? Carebear is a slang term that is used to refer to a video gamer who avoids violence and competition.

Just because you aren't aware of ATV and other groups that affect NQ's decision making doesn't mean they don't exist. You can do your own research by lurking or asking in #discussion on the official Discord server because I am not here to spoonfeed you.

Again, you're 100% missing the point. Not a shock. I'm well aware of what Carebear means colloquially. People that love to throw that derogatory slang around tend to be some of the most sensitive whiners, and you're kind of proving that point. 

 

This idea that any player group is somehow responsible for NQ's decisions is completely baseless. 

 

People come here to waste their breath and attack noobs/carebears/whatever -- as if those players are the reason NQ hasn't given you the experience you want. I also dislike the direction NQ is taking toward PvP...but blaming some group for "influencing" NQ is pointlessly hostile and irrelevant. 

 

People ought to be responsible for their own decisions. This idea that NQ is helpless because "a bunch of carebears want safety" is completely meritless. 

 

Excusing NQ's decisions because "bad players want stuff" makes no sense. It's as if they have no responsibility and the only problem with DU is all the players you don't like. 

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3 minutes ago, michaelk said:

Excusing NQ's decisions because "bad players want stuff" makes no sense.

I don't recall having to pick between blaming NQ or carebears. We've been doing both the whole time and somehow only you didn't get the memo.

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2 minutes ago, dumpeet said:

I don't recall having to pick between blaming NQ or carebears. We've been doing both the whole time and somehow only you didn't get the memo.

And I'm saying it's stupid to do both. Blaming players for NQ's decisions is useless and becomes nothing more than people demeaning players that enjoy different things than you. Nothing of importance to say beyond value judgements.

 

The only party that matters is the one that actually has the power to make decisions. Not a hard concept. 

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2 minutes ago, dumpeet said:

I don't recall having to pick between blaming NQ or carebears. We've been doing both the whole time and somehow only you didn't get the memo.

The blame falls solely on NQ. They had 6 years to get this stuff right, and they can't. PVP should of been a fully fleshed out and fully implemented system as compared to what we have today. This goes with the rest of the game which is poorly designed as well. Finally, fun tip: blowing up people leaving the starter zone who can't fight against you is not pvp: its ganking. PVP is when  two people who are prepared for a fight -fight each other. So, when nq gets there **** together you can blame the carebears. Until then, blame NQ.

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1 minute ago, michaelk said:

Blaming players for NQ's decisions is useless and becomes nothing more than people demeaning players that enjoy different things than you.

Without carebears NQ wouldn't get the stupid idea of pandering to them, I have every right to blame them. If you can't understand that much then you're beyond help.

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1 minute ago, Treelessrain said:

They had 6 years to get this stuff right, and they can't. PVP should of been a fully fleshed out and fully implemented system as compared to what we have today. This goes with the rest of the game which is poorly designed as well.

Now you're just preaching to the choir, only the NQ drones are defending them at this point as seen in 

 

2 minutes ago, Treelessrain said:

Finally, fun tip: blowing up people leaving the starter zone who can't fight against you is not pvp: its ganking.

Blowing up people leaving the starter zone is a player attacking another player aka PvP.

3 minutes ago, Treelessrain said:

PVP is when  two people who are prepared for a fight -fight each other.

No, that's a duel which is a subcategory of PvP. Don't get your terms mixed up or you'll end up like michaelk.

4 minutes ago, Treelessrain said:

So, when nq gets there **** together you can blame the carebears. Until then, blame NQ.

I don't think I will, thank you.

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1 minute ago, dumpeet said:

Now you're just preaching to the choir, only the NQ drones are defending them at this point as seen in 

 

Blowing up people leaving the starter zone is a player attacking another player aka PvP.

No, that's a duel which is a subcategory of PvP. Don't get your terms mixed up or you'll end up like michaelk.

I don't think I will, thank you.

Yeah, I am not preaching to the choir. I've been ******* about the games design ever since I started playing. People are finally starting to see the games numerous issues and hopefully propose solutions to them. Sorry, blowing up people who can't fight back is still ganking.  Especially, since unlike EVE ships are built from scratch, and can take days or weeks to build.  Sure, two people fighting is a duel, but it is still pvp between people who are ready and able to fight each other. Jumping noob ships as they leave the starter zone is not pvp-its ganking, especially since they probably won't be able to fight back.

Yeah, I am going to keep blaming NQ for this mess- let me know when they get their **** together.

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13 minutes ago, dumpeet said:

Without carebears NQ wouldn't get the stupid idea of pandering to them, I have every right to blame them. If you can't understand that much then you're beyond help.

Riiight...you have the "right" to blame random people not associated with a company for the decisions that company makes because those people have opinions which are different than your own....? 

 

And I'm the one beyond help...? 

 

It doesn't matter what "made" them decide things...NQ has decided they don't want your demographic in this game.

 

Grow up and move on or figure out how to "influence" them like those damned carebears -- or just keep whining because NQ isn't making the game you and your buddies want. 

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1 minute ago, Treelessrain said:

ships are built from scratch, and can take days or weeks to build.

Can I get a citation on these numbers? A standard space capable ship can be built under 500k which is vastly less than you can make just by running a factory in the background.

2 minutes ago, Treelessrain said:

Jumping noob ships as they leave the starter zone is not pvp-its ganking

I risk repeating myself but any sort of combat between ships owned by two or more players is PvP whether you like it or not. It's only not PvP if the other party is an NPC made construct that is either unmanned or operated by in-game AI.

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1 minute ago, dumpeet said:

Can I get a citation on these numbers? A standard space capable ship can be built under 500k which is vastly less than you can make just by running a factory in the background.

I risk repeating myself but any sort of combat between ships owned by two or more players is PvP whether you like it or not. It's only not PvP if the other party is an NPC made construct that is either unmanned or operated by in-game AI.

 

No citation for that, only based on what people have said on reddit about pictures of ships they built(ie, cost, build time) etc. Secondly, you and I seem to have a different definition of what pvp is:

 

1-New player leaves starting zone - gets ganked- that is ganking

2- New player leaves starting zone for the 2nd time- get ganked- that is  stupidity at its finest

3- New player leaves starting zone for the 3rd time and is prepared for a fight, and fights his attacker- that is pvp

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