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Khaymann

Is scamming going to be a thing?

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I definitely don't think scamming should simply be allowed.

 

I'm not exactly sure what we are defining as scamming here.  But in most of the games i have played scammers almost always take advantage of design flaws, like items having similar names or similar icons.  Or even just taking advantage of unavoidable aspects of games like pvp invulnerability areas or being able to log out of the game.

 

There's nothing realistic about someone pulling a bait and switch on you and then vanishing into thin air.  And being able to start new characters or change names easily means there's no danger of gaining the reputation of a scammer.

 

Being a Conman in a game might sound cool on paper, but when the actual act depends entirely on praying on confused new players.  That doesn't sound good to me at all.

 

The idea of players being able to match wits somehow in the game sounds great.  But it should be done in a way where everyone understands the rules and the stakes of what they're getting into.

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I definitely don't think scamming should simply be allowed.

 

I'm not exactly sure what we are defining as scamming here.  But in most of the games i have played scammers almost always take advantage of design flaws, like items having similar names or similar icons.  Or even just taking advantage of unavoidable aspects of games like pvp invulnerability areas or being able to log out of the game.

 

There's nothing realistic about someone pulling a bait and switch on you and then vanishing into thin air.  And being able to start new characters or change names easily means there's no danger of gaining the reputation of a scammer.

 

Being a Conman in a game might sound cool on paper, but when the actual act depends entirely on praying on confused new players.  That doesn't sound good to me at all.

 

The idea of players being able to match wits somehow in the game sounds great.  But it should be done in a way where everyone understands the rules and the stakes of what they're getting into.

You see, if you were not to read the EULA of a product and that product indicated "I got access to your personal messages, facebook and twitter account" and you signed up without looking at the EULA, you are silly and no legal ssstem can save you from being one. Same goes for scamming. If you have nothing standing on your shoulders, then good luck against scamming. And this doesn't extend in=game alone, but in the real world as well.

 

 

And being a Conman, takes CONFIDENCE. If a guy goes like "uhm.... and.... uhm.... yes...but, uhm... no, uhm...." you are not a Conman, that guy's a joke.

 

 

And what's wrong on using your verbal skills and mental faculties against another player to scam them? What's next? PvP is not fair because the other guy is skilled more at predicting your movements? Should the devs ban that guy as well because his/her Intelligence Quotient outmatches ours in its entirety? Should I be banned from the game because I can make a better LUA script than someone who is not trained in such a field? Should a designed be banned for having an external source of knowledge on building ships?

 

No. Noone will get banned.  If you are easy on trust, that's your issue good sir, NOT the Devs'.

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I have been playing on the Minecraft server NationsGlory since more than 1 year and there is a war system on it. To make a war we need one of the reasons listed in the rules. And one of these reasons is... scamming. If someone scam you, make him/her a war :D

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I have been playing on the Minecraft server NationsGlory since more than 1 year and there is a war system on it. To make a war we need one of the reasons listed in the rules. And one of these reasons is... scamming. If someone scam you, make him/her a war :D

Well, in EVE, you could go to war because an enemy pilot looked at you the wrong way, so... yeah, scamming won't be the prime reason for war, EGO will be :P

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I definitely don't think scamming should simply be allowed.

 

I'm not exactly sure what we are defining as scamming here.  But in most of the games i have played scammers almost always take advantage of design flaws, like items having similar names or similar icons.  Or even just taking advantage of unavoidable aspects of games like pvp invulnerability areas or being able to log out of the game.

 

There's nothing realistic about someone pulling a bait and switch on you and then vanishing into thin air.  And being able to start new characters or change names easily means there's no danger of gaining the reputation of a scammer.

 

Being a Conman in a game might sound cool on paper, but when the actual act depends entirely on praying on confused new players.  That doesn't sound good to me at all.

 

The idea of players being able to match wits somehow in the game sounds great.  But it should be done in a way where everyone understands the rules and the stakes of what they're getting into.

"The rules are simple: don't get scammed. It's not a question of what the developers are going to do about it. The fact is, they're going to do nothing. Is scamming going to be a thing? Yes. Is it going to be as bad as it is in other games, that's up to you and I to decide. Some people are always going to be smart, but the thing is, someone will always be smarter. We all have some bad side to ourselves: it's a matter of personal choice to exhibit it or not."

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Scamming will definitely be a part of the game, with a game where the devs will be probably be taking an off-hand approach regarding the expansion of "society", some people will be definitely taking advantage of other people, it is the same in real life.

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Scamming should be allowed but the game systems shouldn't make it easy to do. As long as poor game mechanics don't lead to scamming I'm ok with it

 

Yes, scamming should not happen because of bad UI or poor game mechanics. If something is worded confusingly in the UI, or a mechanic is too confusing that it would be trivial to scam someone with it, then perhaps the UI or the mechanic should be revamped.

 

One might argue that Eve has this issue (or had, I haven't played it in over a year), in contract scams. 

 

They did eventually end up fixing part of the UI issue that was allowing me to run courier scams in Eve, but that was more of a change to make it more obvious to people that they were about to do something dangerous. The only thing the "fix" did was to try and stop people from being scammed that way, but CCP billed it as something that would add clarity to the details behind a courier contract. 

 

-shrug- 

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I remember the out-rage people had when scamming started getting rampant in Lineage 2 a bajillion years ago. It got to the point that the dev actually tried to present it as a feature of the game. They warned that other players might try to sabotage you economically and to always verify what you were trying to purchase and its appropriate value. 

 

I think even if we end up having some sort of auction house element to put in our cities, I almost guarantee that people are going to try and scam and price gouge. I would prefer that this doesn't happen, but sadly the cynic in me says it will. 

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I remember the out-rage people had when scamming started getting rampant in Lineage 2 a bajillion years ago. It got to the point that the dev actually tried to present it as a feature of the game. They warned that other players might try to sabotage you economically and to always verify what you were trying to purchase and its appropriate value. 

 

I think even if we end up having some sort of auction house element to put in our cities, I almost guarantee that people are going to try and scam and price gouge. I would prefer that this doesn't happen, but sadly the cynic in me says it will. 

Welcome to the world of sandbox games. If you don't check what you buy, it's the the seller's fault you got duped :V

 

And yes, I did do the "lag lag" BS on people in Lineage 2 and sold them an item of C grade for an S-10 grade item, because they were lazy and lazy is duped easily. :V

 

 

Always check what you buy. Always.

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I'm sure that i read or came across a video by NQ that suggested within tagging mechanics, their would be an option to set a forfeit or tax ect on a negotiation, for example, if I where to give some one 100,000 space bucks on a promise he/she would repay me every day a certain amount until the debt is settled, then i could also add to the agreement that if the payment was not satisfied within x time frame, i could seize x assets agreed by both parties covering the loan amount or more. the scammer may try and run away and not pay me, however after x days the game would know the repayment has not been made and that now the agreed asset is mine. it could even go as far as to make sure that agreed asset is in a form of stasis (the player is able to use the asset however they can no longer modify, sell or deconstruct the asset). They could still nuke the asset or have another player sab it for them but then the scammer never makes any money on the scam they just trolled you. even so that can be avoided by having it kept in a safe zone for the duration of the agreed time.

 

again depends on how deep this mechanic goes but I think it's a good way to iron out a lot of scamming issues and open new politics into the game.

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I'm sure that i read or came across a video by NQ that suggested within tagging mechanics, their would be an option to set a forfeit or tax ect on a negotiation, for example, if I where to give some one 100,000 space bucks on a promise he/she would repay me every day a certain amount until the debt is settled, then i could also add to the agreement that if the payment was not satisfied within x time frame, i could seize x assets agreed by both parties covering the loan amount or more. the scammer may try and run away and not pay me, however after x days the game would know the repayment has not been made and that now the agreed asset is mine. it could even go as far as to make sure that agreed asset is in a form of stasis (the player is able to use the asset however they can no longer modify, sell or deconstruct the asset). They could still nuke the asset or have another player sab it for them but then the scammer never makes any money on the scam they just trolled you. even so that can be avoided by having it kept in a safe zone for the duration of the agreed time.

 

again depends on how deep this mechanic goes but I think it's a good way to iron out a lot of scamming issues and open new politics into the game.

That's not how scams work.

 

 

There's nothing in the world preventing me from selling you a ship for 10 times its price and you buying it as is, no RDM involved, if you are naive enough to fall for it.

 

 

There's nothing preventing me from asking people for 100,000 Space Backs in promise of returning 200,000 Space Bucks.

 

 

The best defense against Scams, is a functional brain. Don't, trust, strangers.

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Exactly. Emergent and organic. You scam someone? That someone might want revenge. Might send people after you. Might even have your account ID to tell when you are online on alt characters. Boom, faction wide K.O.S. on bounties and banned from being traded. Perhps a faction could "paint" an individual to be seen by its members with a red name to signify a hostile target towards them. Who knows.

 

 

possible solution. implement a jailing system or a trading ban system run by players of a sector. where the org or player who run the sector you are trading in can revoke your right to trade or not 

 

With reference to Rules 3 through 9, plus of course 12 - the Silent Legion exists for purposes such as this.

 

Make whatever you like to tag people  - we already know who they are. And they can try and hide - it won't matter. We'll still show up regardless. We don't want your bounties. Or your praise.

 

If asshattery is afoot it will be found.

 

So Asshats of the future DU reading this with your grubby scammer eyes. Hate us. And let the hate fire sustain you till we arrive. Because Rule 19.

 

Anonymous loves you.

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Absolutely agree with Astrolator - it's a Social Experiment by any name, so it's to us to work out how to deal with the inevitable. (Haxxors (not RP/in-game hackers but people trying to be naughty with bots or hacking game code / exploits) of course are NQ's to deal with a big ban stick)

 

It will be really interesting watching "law" evolve.

 

(Yeah but seriously - what that other random anonymous poster said like it was an in-game discussion... don't believe them. There's no mysterious Silent Legion who's going to show up and take care of scammers for you...  :ph34r:  <_<  )

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very likely that is you go for the wrong player, many organizations can team up to set permissions in their zones to stop you entering them and trading, which if done on a large scale where most of the markets that have the lucrative and sought after items are included, its going to be harder for that scammer to do much with what he scammed

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@Apex - Yeah - all jokes aside - while SL is in-game/on paper an idea for a sort of mysterious roaming vigilante/law enforcement/seven samurai style group that's about protecting the "little guy" and trying to prevent the ills of the world left behind from happening again - that will definitely be a risk in any player driven effort to enforce/stop scamming etc.

 

The only potential issue I see with the inevitable situation you succinctly describe:

 

 

 

- (many organizations can team up to set permissions in their zones to stop you entering them and trading, which if done on a large scale where most of the markets that have the lucrative and sought after items are included, its going to be harder for that scammer to do much with what he scammed)  

 

Is that this model in itself can lead to monopolistic trading practices which can make the game almost unplayable for new starters coming in later - it's one of the things that kept me off EvE - too hard to come in as an independent operator given the market state - the established big guys eat you up - and that's potentially just as bad as scamming.

 

We are damned if we do, and we are damned if we don't eh?

 

Of course - all of this is rampant speculation on the Community's part - Dec 18 is a looooong way off. Lots to happen between now and then.

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A loved one of mine has passed. Her last dying words were to give out her Credits. I will double no wait I will triple your credits. Send me 100mil I will send you 300mil back! 

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I'll be really interested to see what happens in regard to player driven law and criminality. 

 

Personally, I hope they allow nefarious activities so long as they don't involve a) exploiting glitches or flaw in the game, B) hacking the game or using bots or c) tricking people into spending real life money. 

 

I also hope they allow for a variety of emergent responses to it. For instance, I really liked the idea of being able to lock players out of things. It could make maintaining a reputation a very important part of the game.

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Even if the trade and contract mechanics are pretty solid, the scum of the community whll find a way. Sweet deal dor some cargo? Gotta fo to a spooky planet to pick it up? Ambush!

 

Plus there may be orgs that do everything by handshake..... Lol

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While I believe the devs can ban scammers even if not specifically stated in the EULA, for "player conduct un becoming" , sort of like UCMJ article 134,  I'm not sure they would.

 As stated before, they want this to be as much of a sandbox as possible, and don't want to hinder/help the player economy. We have all been scammed at one point in our lives. It's how we learned. The old days where your word was your honor and people took it as bond, no longer applies. I'm afraid it's now "caveat emptor".

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As you said: at some point everyone got scammed, so what. Sandbox = scamming allowed, nothing more to say.

 

There are easy ways to avoid being scammed, but when a scam hits you it's just hilarious

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Even if the trade and contract mechanics are pretty solid, the scum of the community whll find a way. Sweet deal dor some cargo? Gotta fo to a spooky planet to pick it up? Ambush!

 

Plus there may be orgs that do everything by handshake..... Lol

Even if we both whole-heartedly disagree on the DAC issue with each other, you do seem like the kind of guy I would have no issue to hang out with.

 

 

/raises_glass

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