ostris

True, ultimately this discussion is hard because there really is no base to work off of, no existing exact match. I think I or place a lot of importance on the stated PvP availability and bias less PvP then more PvP, unless the dev is VERY committed to having heavy(widely available) pvp. Also i am very heavily referring to the stated final state of the game. you perhaps less so on the importance of PvP and are referring to the game as it is now? Correct me if I'm wrong. I really hope it breaks down the way you are saying in the long term. I just hope NQ doesn't compromise game play to make it happen. This is my primary concern and why i referenced FO76.

@blazemonger Once again you are attributing to me something i never said and arguing a point i never made. When I say the game wont be safe your response is essence is you probably won't die. Probably is not 0%. In other games you are 100% safe to mine, 100% safe to play the game loop(at least from other players). Not 99.99999% safe. I am not afraid of any type of player dominating the game. And never said i was. I'm "afraid" about the disconnect between the world NQ is putting out and the world I think they will get. The game can work with lots of pvpers everywhere or lots of p+e players everywhere. With things being safe OR nothing being safe. I'm ok with all of it. The game world should match the game they want to make. If they want it to be a civ building game first and pvp second then the game world should not be structured the exact opposite. PvP in 99% of the game world with small protected areas. It is also odd to me that you accused me of knowing the pvp systems etc which i never said i did. My entire argument is games that allow open world pvp tend to be dominated by it and that runs against the civ style game NQ sometimes markets. That's the beginning and end of my argument, because as you stated we don't know anything else about combat. Your entire post, for it to be true, has to make huge assumptions about how game play mechanics work. You are assuming you can easily hide from those that want to kill you because the world is so large. You are assuming that the game play will support this style of game yet we know nothing of why it will be that way. This is YOUR argument, that I couldn't know the details of the pvp system. Yet somehow you KNOW you can hide. My point does not require any of this, it only requires the clearly stated position of NQ towards pvp and p+e zones. @Borb_1 I appreciate the way you discuss things. As to your first paragraph, this would be the exact opposite of the stated position NQ has right now. They have stated if you want to gain something of value it must come with risk. The Moon Safe zones, clearly stated, will have NO resources in the ground and the arkship safezone is too small to be relevant in mining for the long term(i don't know if they have provided a clear answer to what resources will be in the arkship safe zone). What your saying in this first paragraph is pretty much what i am saying NQ should do to get the game you are stating DU is. Which is provide the complete or near complete P+E game loop to players with no threat of PvP. So i guess i kind of agree with this. Neither one of you have actually answered the question I asked. You talked about why it SHOULD be the way you say. Why the mechanics of the game, that none of us know, SHOULD lead to the P+E base you say. The point I am making is if primary P+E civ building is the game NQ wants, why implement stuff that SHOULD make it that way instead of implementing stuff that DOES make it that way. This game is vastly different then other games so I agree none of us can KNOW how it will work out(keep in mind you are both saying this is a civ game as if you KNOW it will be). But the question neither of you answered, if you have the opinion that this should be primarily a P+E civ building game with a smaller PvP top: "why have the game world as PvP with P+E zones, and not the opposite? Why force the PvP in to the P+E game loop? "

Great post and really well put. The large world will help, but i still disagree on the principal. Mostly because what you are classifying as P+E gameplay, in du with the current described way of handling where you can PvP, are actually P+E + PvP. There is no safe mining, there is no safe scanning, there is no safe hauling. And if you want the things you design and build to be usable in 99% of the game world, pvp must be considered when building and designing. To me what you are describing is a game world much more similar to what I am saying DU should be. Simply put a game world where the game loop can be satisfied without PvP. As it currently stands whatever form pvp may take it will be rooted in every P+E element you mentioned because of the fact that there are virtually no safe zones. The open world PvP style forces PvP in to the game loop. I guess my question to you is. If you see the game world as the pyramid you describe, why have the game world as PvP with P+E zones, and not the opposite? Why force the PvP in to the P+E game loop?

I honestly don't know if you do it intentionally or not or if you are just a troll or what, but every time you reply to pretty much anyone you pick one sentence out of context, greatly misrepresent it or completely miss the point. The only reason I bother replying is that maybe i need to clarify so that if someone else reads this topic they will understand what I am saying. To clarify the only game mechanics i am referring to are if the game is structured as a pvp game with pve zones or a pve game with pvp zones. Currently this is a pvp game with pve zones. The vast majority of the game world is pvp and all/most resources are mined in areas where people can fight. Even if a player doesn't pvp and stays in safe zones, the minerals they build with are acquired by someone who risked pvp. A pve game with pvp zones would be a game where certain planets or spaces are pvp and those planets have some advantage like large amount of high value resources. In that game you could choose to mine in pve zones and build in pve zones and ignore pvp completely.

The information on this thread has me a bit worried. I have felt like for awhile that NQ's messaging on the game has not really matched the pvp/safezone system they have planned. If I had no knowledge of the pvp system in this game and i looked at the feedback in this thread I would assume the game is a PvE game with high value PvP planets or zones and mechanics to encourage building in those zones. Every game i have played that allows open world pvp with limited or no safe zones becomes almost entirely about the PvP. Everything in the game gets impacted by pvp. The iron to build a building is really expensive cause its also used in ammo and that pisses off the pve types, as an example. Ultimately, I'm ok with the current system, pvp game with pve zones OR the opposite pve game with pvp zones. I think both can work and make a fun game. But it concerns me when the developer implements one system and then hedges against it. So pvp anywhere except some zones with no resources......but its not just a pvp game guys its about civilization building and crafting. I get the same vibe i got from Fallout76. KILL OTHER PLAYERS - PVP, 2 months later. Well you can slap other players and they can choose to fight back and if they dont its nearly impossible to kill them and if you do kill them they will only drop junk ....soooo dueling we implemented dueling and called it PvP. I'm not getting that bad of a vibe from NQ but I guess I'm sensing it a bit. A clash between saying this is a PvP game, kill anyone, anywhere and trying to make it appealing to pve types by saying its not really a pvp game its a civ game. I don't really care what system they pick as long as its in line with the true direction of the game and the messaging NQ puts out. In short, as the game mechanics are now, I see this game as being a PvP oriented game with, say half the game being about pvp and half being PvE and that is a PVP game not a civ building game. If that's not the game NQ wants they should change the pvp system.

1) I am not moving the goal post you made a statement that players cannot form police. Why? Why can players not form police or at least police like structures? The point i was making is if players can do all this stuff why can they not form police, guards etc? i then listed several police like actions players can take. And piracy would be considered an act of evil. It was in OPs post about non consensual pvp and piracy. you literally used it as an example of evil: "What's been coming up here is risk vs reward, sure you need to take risk to get the rare stuff but at the same time, a pirate will need to accept the risk of losing free and safe access to markets and facilities in safe zones when choosing the life in game he/she does." So pirates commit acts of evil and the game should punish them by removing the only protection players have, pirates robbing a mining op would be an act of evil and punishable using your own example, or is it only certain kinds of piracy? or are we only talking about griefing now? 2/3) 2 to me is just a statement you made. It has no bearing on the discussion as presented. You could provide a reason WHY people need to be able to attack pirates in safe space. Not just state they cant. I literally said i dont understand 3 4) I guess i need to quote 4 again because i literally said " I'm not saying NQ should have no regulation or power in any aspect of the game. They should leave controlling piracy and other evil acts to players or at least try to before declaring it obviously not possible." Why do you literally ignore peoples statements when you offer counter points. You did it in two posts back to back. I said in 4 nq should be able to provide some mechanics but primarily piracy(the example you have used and OP has used) should be controlled by players or at the very least try to leave it to be controlled by players.

1) Why can players form pirate orgs but mining orgs cant have part of their org be guards or hire guards or hire mercs to kill the pirates, all of these actions are effectively policing. 2) Pirates have no means or methods to act against players inside the safe zones. Everyone has to leave the safe zone or use material from outside of safe zones to play the game. 3)I honestly don't know what point you are trying to make. Maybe miscommunication. I am saying players can hold pirates responsible for their actions by killing them for the fun of pvp or because they were paid too. 4)Not entirely sure what the point of this one is but maybe contract system? I'm not saying NQ should have no regulation or power in any aspect of the game. They should leave controlling piracy to players or at least try to before declaring it obviously not possible. I mean its literally the premise of his point that NQ can make ammo very expensive, as in there is no effective cheap ammo....arguments are never valid when you just ignore part of it.

I see, would one of the most aggressive pvp systems be more preferable? Cause I'm ok with that, i guess I am being a little loose with the absolute nature of my statements in that post. I was speaking very generically about full loot pvp systems being pretty hardcore by comparison to the vast majority of games that either offer non full loot pvp or pve only servers.

So just to be clear you think i want a PvE friendly environment?

i feel like saying "the player base can't control this obviously" about a game with really no basis of comparison without even attempting it in alpha/beta is rather silly. I guess ill challenge that statement. why can players not control this?

This to me is the bridge to what OP said and what many have been discussing. In my eyes its not just CAN you be evil. It's does the game abnormally punish or reward you for for being evil. If you can be evil but every time you kill an innocent ship your avatar is frozen for 7 days i really doubt you would see much pvp, conversely if it rains dacs every time you kill a noob the game would probably be unplayable. I think this is where me and @blazemonger disagree. I think its better left to the player base to control and he would like some intervention by nq in game mechanics to curb this(keeping out of safe zone). Ultimately though the balance of reward/punishment for evil behavior or protection from evil behavior will determine if being evil is really viable...even if it is allowed.

So with some understood elements such as the pirate being in a better ship, had more numbers and is otherwise capable of winning the fight and beating guards etc then yes. At least if NQ wants to implement the current system with our limited understanding of pvp.

Hmm yeah i guess we just have different standards. I consider any game in which i can kill you and take your hard earned stuff as, for lack of a better term, in the top 10% of hardcore pvp. Most games like wow you get nothing and many of the games that have full loot style pvp, have pvp and pve servers(ark/rust). A game that if you want to play required you to accept this type of pvp in my eyes in pretty hardcore. But with your standards of hardcore i can agree with what your saying.

I understand. ill edit the post.