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NQ, are you removing shopping bots from T1?


Messaline

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7 minutes ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

 

Maybe because end of income = end of game?

You know and I know that bots are really not only income source.

 

Maybe because:

Heavy taxes, high costs fuel electricity, energy to heating homes and such are real life big problems. We do not want them into game we play.

I want to feel that at least a short moment in my life I do not have money problems. So I love easy income provided by bots. I really do. I was just wondering is there other reasons?

 

 

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1 hour ago, kulkija said:

You know and I know that bots are really not only income source.

 

Maybe because:

Heavy taxes, high costs fuel electricity, energy to heating homes and such are real life big problems. We do not want them into game we play.

I want to feel that at least a short moment in my life I do not have money problems. So I love easy income provided by bots. I really do. I was just wondering is there other reasons?

 

 

 

Amen.  I spent 45 years of my life working in Corporate America, fortunately with bosses I mostly liked, but always with Corporate requirements/ambitions/edicts that made life somewhat less pleasant.  No way do I want to spend my retirement reliving that via a game.

 

Started some Uncommon Military L Space Engines today.  They take me a bit over 6 hours to make each.  Felt about right.  Wasn't particularly happy with spend 4+ hours making schematics or paying 75,000 for each pair of them over and beyond the ore, industry, and other associated cost.   Of course, those cost were trivial to the Tier 3 things I'm starting to put together.  8 batches of Tier 3 Product schematics will set you back 450,000 and 25 hours - so that you can, eventually, make the alloys you need.  Why 8 batches?  4 consumers of those schematics, 8 batches will only supply them with 60 runs each....  Given that I easily go through 250 schematics per T1 product per day, I'm not looking forward to keeping those industries going, and am terrified what T4 and T5 will cost.  All this just so I can build a S Roid hunter with a shield...

 

ps.  Please don't tell me about just needing to plan better.  My factory currently has 225 industries (more-or-less) on it - I'll be dammed if I'm going to be building spreadsheets to manage them. Yeah, many of those produce T1 stuff and don't require schematics, but plenty of them do.

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1 hour ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

 

Well, if they wait long enough, they can forget the rest of the list as well. Pretty smart strategy.

 

Seems to work for support:  Once they "pass on" an issue they close the ticket.  No tracking to see if issues are resolved, just pass it on and close it.

 

Wouldn't it be nice to get an e-mail along the lines of "Dear Pleione - we wanted to let you know that your issues #12345 should be resolved in the patch that goes live this Saturday.  Thank you for reporting issues - it is key to making this a better game".

 

Lets not even start with wild concepts like "Report bug" automatically taking a screen shot, running a dx-diag if the output file is old or missing, grabbing the last 15 minutes of log files, and having all that ready as attachments when the screen requesting a description shows up.

 

Or, how about, and here is a shocker, having the debug option "clear cache" remove the shader cache file while it was at it.

 

You know, its not like they haven't had 6+ years to develop tools to help us help them.

 

Maybe, even, just a small doc that describes how to find an event in the log files?  Just documentation guys... no coding needed.

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1 hour ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

Maybe because end of income = end of game?

 

What needs to change so that income can be made from sources other than NPC/bot "Quanta faucets"? Obviously, "players with money need to start spending it on things other players have made/dug up". Why doesn't that happen (more/enough to make the "easy money" loop unnecessary)?

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8 hours ago, Kezzle said:

 

What needs to change so that income can be made from sources other than NPC/bot "Quanta faucets"? Obviously, "players with money need to start spending it on things other players have made/dug up". Why doesn't that happen (more/enough to make the "easy money" loop unnecessary)?

mmmm...
One question.
And without bots, where will the money come from those players who have to spend it?

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On 11/11/2022 at 3:11 PM, ColonkinYT said:

mmmm...
One question.
And without bots, where will the money come from those players who have to spend it?

 

I tried to have a discussion with people on DU Discord about this. It was like talking to six year olds...

 

 I asked, "where do the people who make things get their money from to buy ore and for their schematics?"

They said, "from selling things they don't use themselves to people who don't make things."

"And where does those people's money come from to buy the stuff?" I asked...

And they said, "from selling ore to people who make things..."

 

They literally couldn't comprehend the circular argument and the massive schematic (outgoing) faucet.


No wonder the world is in the current state it's in when people have no idea how simple maths works.

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6 hours ago, ColonkinYT said:

mmmm...
One question.
And without bots, where will the money come from those players who have to spend it?

 

Money / Quanta is already in the system. And lots of it.

 

NQ has tools to monitor whole economy and inject quanta by many ways, other than bots, if needed. They can also regulate economy by lowering taxes and other fees if they want.

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17 hours ago, kulkija said:

I just wonder why this Infinite ore -> infinite bots -> infinite quanta -> easy unlimited income is such an obsession to so many players

 

 

We have an edgelord among us... Where do you want your medal sent? Some of us play games to have fun and relax, not fk around with taxes.

 

22 minutes ago, kulkija said:

 

Money / Quanta is already in the system. And lots of it.

 

NQ has tools to monitor whole economy and inject quanta by many ways, other than bots, if needed. They can also regulate economy by lowering taxes and other fees if they want.

 

Dude, this is NQ we're talking about... That's like saying NQ has the tools to spot exploited bugs and roll back the server then ban the miscreants and regulate what players do in real time or at least within 24 hours of them exploiting a bug.

 

Quote

Remember MP15

 

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4 hours ago, Jinxed said:

 

I tried to have a discussion with people on DU Discord about this. It was like talking to six year olds...

 

 I asked, "where do the people who make things get their money from to buy ore and for their schematics?"

They said, "from selling things they don't use themselves to people who don't make things."

"And where does those people's money come from to buy the stuff?" I asked...

And they said, "from selling ore to people who make things..."

 

They literally couldn't comprehend the circular argument and the massive schematic faucet.


No wonder the world is in the current state it's in when people have no idea how simple maths works.

AFAIK, the only people with money to spend are the ones NOT producing anything, only involved in bot delivery missions.  Sure, they need ships and fuel but even with half or more of the population doing so it still would not provide enough demand to keep a fraction of the economy afloat.

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5 hours ago, Jinxed said:

They literally couldn't comprehend the circular argument and the massive schematic faucet.

 

Having artificial money sinks is certainly a great way to take the air our of a player-to-player economy. At any point, there needs to be a balance between money in and money out of the system. And the money supply needs to grow along with the size of the economy, or deflationary difficulties will arise.

 

That's not the same as the "easy money" scenario with full-on Q-faucets and abyssal Q-sinks that we currently have.

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16 hours ago, Kezzle said:

 

What needs to change so that income can be made from sources other than NPC/bot "Quanta faucets"? Obviously, "players with money need to start spending it on things other players have made/dug up". Why doesn't that happen (more/enough to make the "easy money" loop unnecessary)?

one of the reasons is the market system where you cannot see at once what is for sale per market. Second is that its too expensive to make stuff to actually put it on the market. third is lack of ores that matter for real stuff to craft and last is the lack of actual players since you need a critical mass to have a growing economy

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6 minutes ago, Bobbie said:

That's rather concerning btw. It didn't affect me, but for NQ to need a month to sort something so trivial...? This should be a fairly straightforward automated process. Like a medium-difficulty database query. Almost as trivial as refreshing bot orders...... 🥴

 

 

For what its worth... I reported the Sanctuary adjacency issue within a few hours of launch.  It took 3 weeks to get a response from support.  Once they got to it, we swapped e-mails for a couple of days and then they passed it on (I pointed out that 9 patches had been released since I reported the problem), it was fixed in the next patch.

 

So honestly, I blame management for understaffing the customer support group.

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Sink / faucet.  Significant faucet was T1 Bot orders. Sink is schematics / taxes.  The faucet is depleting, the sink will only be a little (less schematics), but taxes still remain for the ore, which are significant for those who have miner capital into the hexes.  We're also in major build mode due to the state of the game, so that plays a factor as well.

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On 11/11/2022 at 11:15 AM, Jinxed said:

 

I tried to have a discussion with people on DU Discord about this. It was like talking to six year olds...

 

 I asked, "where do the people who make things get their money from to buy ore and for their schematics?"

They said, "from selling things they don't use themselves to people who don't make things."

"And where does those people's money come from to buy the stuff?" I asked...

And they said, "from selling ore to people who make things..."

 

They literally couldn't comprehend the circular argument and the massive schematic (outgoing) faucet.


No wonder the world is in the current state it's in when people have no idea how simple maths works.

What am I talking about.
It's not even a question of mathematics.
And the fact that many seem to think like Pinocchio. That money grows on trees. And bread probably also grows in the garden. And cars reproduce by budding.
Of the sources of quanta in the system, in fact, only one remained - missions. Daily 100 thousand is just laughter.
As for the disposal of quanta from the system, there are many more of them: taxes on the territory, prices for schematics, taxes on the markets (by the way, so far a very small value).
Moreover, taxes on the territory are burned by the quantum, regardless of the character's economic activity.

 

And then everything is simple.
The influx of quants > the outflow of quants + produced goods - an inflationary economy.
Influx of quants < outflow of quants + produced goods - deflationary economy.

It's even simplified here. Because here it is necessary to understand that not all quanta that have come into the economy will participate in the economic turnover. Quite a significant part will be frozen on accounts, including inactive characters.

 

I draw your attention to the fact that at the moment we can say that the entire modern capitalist economy is developing according to an inflationary scenario (only high inflation is bad). This is the only way to ensure the reproduction of capital. With deflation, the reproduction of capital is not possible. You are facing a deflationary spiral. That is why in developed countries they prefer to distribute money to the population than to allow deflation.

The game economy is not much different from the real one. Simply because the same people operate there as in the real economy. with the same behavior.

 

P.S. The inflationary economy is easy enough for developers to control. It is enough to introduce a dynamic component of taxes in market transactions. There, even a change of 0.1% will have a significant impact with such volumes of transactions.

And with an inflationary model, everyone is much more willing to spend money. This revitalizes the market and interest for many professions.

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Hello,


I see that my post caused you problems, unfortunately it poses more problems for new players and old ones like me who only have the sale to bots to pay taxes and buy elements to evolve my ships.


Since my post, I have already lost a dozen friends.


So...

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On 11/11/2022 at 6:11 AM, ColonkinYT said:

mmmm...
One question.
And without bots, where will the money come from those players who have to spend it?

Mission running.  NQ Broke it again, now people are making hundreds of millions of quanta per day again and it will trash the economy.

 

But at least we won't run out of quanta.

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24 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:

Mission running.  NQ Broke it again, now people are making hundreds of millions of quanta per day again and it will trash the economy.

 

But at least we won't run out of quanta.

Wait, what? Did the RNG of missions brake or what?

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16 minutes ago, Yoarii said:

Wait, what? Did the RNG of missions brake or what?

The missions are still randomised, but taking away the other planets means they are essentially randomised so each character has one of safezone->jago, jago->safezone, safezone->teoma and teoma->safezone.  So if you do a loop from safe to one other and back 50% of your characters can run one of the biggest missions. If you do two loops at once they all can. 

There aren't beta accounts any more but NQ helpfully provided DAC so you can keep running missions, buying DAC from other players, signing up more characters and repeating.  I think the biggest mission runners are into double-digits now, I've certainly seen some screenshots of pre-nerf style giant ships with a double-digit number of XL engines on them.

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2 hours ago, Zeddrick said:

The missions are still randomised, but taking away the other planets means they are essentially randomised so each character has one of safezone->jago, jago->safezone, safezone->teoma and teoma->safezone.  So if you do a loop from safe to one other and back 50% of your characters can run one of the biggest missions. If you do two loops at once they all can. 

There aren't beta accounts any more but NQ helpfully provided DAC so you can keep running missions, buying DAC from other players, signing up more characters and repeating.  I think the biggest mission runners are into double-digits now, I've certainly seen some screenshots of pre-nerf style giant ships with a double-digit number of XL engines on them.

Well, wow. gg I guess.

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1 hour ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

 

If "we" means those who play this mission game, then yes. But a rich minority doesn't save the economy. It could even make it worse if some of them decide to flood the market with dumping prices just for lulz.

The mission runners will buy things.  The price of things will go up because there are some absurdly rich people buying everything.  Everyone will have a lot of quanta.

 

But everything will be expensive.

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1 hour ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

 

 But a rich minority doesn't save the economy. 


No.  It will break it more.  I'm just pointing out that there are various mis-implemented features which will break the economy but, IMO, lack of T1 bot orders is not one of them.  The price of T1 is holding up pretty well IMO, I'm paying between 16 and 21 for it.

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8 hours ago, Zeddrick said:


No.  It will break it more.  I'm just pointing out that there are various mis-implemented features which will break the economy but, IMO, lack of T1 bot orders is not one of them.  The price of T1 is holding up pretty well IMO, I'm paying between 16 and 21 for it.

Which is exactly what needed to be proven.
After 1.5 months of playing, ore prices have already dropped to 16.
This is despite the fact that many industries have not yet been fully saturated with components.
And then we go to 10.
Regarding missions - why the hell should I do something that I don't like? After all, it's not 1999 when games were linear. But even in the 90s, not all games were linear. Why the hell should I be stupid for 2-3 hours doing missions? Oh yes. This is the source of the quarts. So why is there only one source? Why are there no mining / production / destruction missions?
I don't believe they are hard to make.
This is called ill-conceived game design. It would be forgivable for a game that just went into early access. But not DU.

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Now when bots are almost depleted I can see more sell orders.

I think T1 ore prices are slowly leveling up to their real market value. Then it will be healthy.

If low amount of quanta is real concern, there are lots of other methods to inject it into system.

 

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