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This game was fine as a sandbox building game


Sabretooth

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This game was fine as a sandbox building game, kind of a big empty LEGO world.

Lego builders dont need entertainment or gameplay, they just enjoy builds. Cities skylines players also just like builds, they like to just follow an npc and just look around.

Train-set builders also do nothing but to watch their builds.

I think this game would attract so many builders from every corner around the world, that it would always have enough ingame players, and maybe not too many at once as some would always take a break.

 

Too bad nq didn't focus on the building/trading part and give us more things to build and trade with.

They gave us a false start with unrealistic sized doors, couches and beds, 3 types of toilets, the most useless empty plantcase and no xs space fueltank. Also crazy core sizes which make no sense to me, why 63(127-255-511) voxels and not 64 (128-256-512)?

Instead of adding more types of wings, doors, cockpits, trees, npc elements (ive made these myself with voxels later on, even made them interactive with detection zones and transparent screens), nq cut down on builders. 

There is lua for ships on water, something nq should have implemented themselves. I know for sure people would start digging canals (because of the ugly random generated planet with puddles) and just sail on them for fun. Videos of ingame builds would flood the tube channels.

The builders needed more things to easily make quests so we could make more adventures, to aquire items to open doors in mazes and labyrinths. Now it was only possible in lua.

I think, that players would subscribe just to see the amazing world that has been build by players. 

 

Nq could have focused on building(what this game started with). Expanding the game with the lua-ideas, just like other games implemented mods from the community, and adding elements that have a proper function.

But nq focused on destroying. Pvp, limiting and wiping that is.

And now you are here, a full wipe (so no world) and a few players.

 

Pvp bashing by me:

Pvp in this game is the fugliest version of space combat i have ever seen, even space invaders is more dynamic, at least you can dodge in space invaders! Territory warfare in this game would be just as ugly, boring and untactical as spacewar in this game is. You cant hide behind an asteroid, so why would you be able to hide behind a hill?

Pvp in this state kicks out the creativity of building. 

Pvp in this game reminds me of those old atari 5600 games, where the box art was nowhere near the ingame screenshots or the gameplay.

Tactics do not exist in this game.

 

In the end, I am sure that this game had more potential for a sandbox building game, than a pvp game.

But hey, nq is trying to proof me wrong, so ill keep an eye out.

 

 

Edit after 5 likes:

Its about this game being fine after 0.23

Edited by Sabretooth
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While I can see the purpose for PVP combat in a game like DU, IMO it is not what NQ has allowed to evolve. 

 

I agree with most of what OP says and I'd add that from that could follow conflicts can arise between player groups organically. Over territory, supply lanes, remote high value sites, strategic locations etc. Player groups would use diplomacy and negotiation to settle these and only if these fail and there are no options left the "military" option could be put in play. Pretty much, the game is designed to follow "normal" lines of how these things would go.

 

Yes, of course there would be "pirates" and small groups of bandits which is fine too, your average organisation would be able to counter that with some effort but never needed excessive or massive force.

 

That idea has all but abandoned because NQ is unable to design a game which accommodates this due to their very limited vision and their tendency to not be able to make tough calls and say no. There is a saying that if you try to please everyone, you please no one but if you design what you feel is right, then in general a good many people will follow and appreciate what you are doing.

 

NQ can't make up their mind about what kind of game DU should be and they do a bit of this, a bit of that and in the end do not finish anything. The core idea of the game was good and had NQ chosen a path to follow and stick to it, creating pillars in the game which all serve the game and not become a goal in and of itself, DU would be a different game now.

 

It's a shame as the potential and promise were always there, NQ just never really saw it or choose to ignore it. And the recent podcasts and half-baked attempts at PR and trying to justify pushing a massive part of what was pitched as the base game (well) beyond "release" is not helping.

 

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agreed

creating ships and buildings is the strongest aspect of this game and pvp is the weakest.

i was shocked when i saw the first pvp video on youtube, a clean 0/10 from me. i feel like only atmospheric combat around planets has potential. i would even like on foot combat like starbase has but this space combat over huge distances is the most boring "pvp" i have ever seen.

Edited by Niemand
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1 hour ago, blazemonger said:

While I can see the purpose for PVP combat in a game like DU, IMO it is not what NQ has allowed to evolve. 

 

I agree with most of what OP says and I'd add that from that could follow conflicts can arise between player groups organically. Over territory, supply lanes, remote high value sites, strategic locations etc. Player groups would use diplomacy and negotiation to settle these and only if these fail and there are no options left the "military" option could be put in play. Pretty much, the game is designed to follow "normal" lines of how these things would go.

 

Yes, of course there would be "pirates" and small groups of bandits which is fine too, your average organisation would be able to counter that with some effort but never needed excessive or massive force.

 

That idea has all but abandoned because NQ is unable to design a game which accommodates this due to their very limited vision and their tendency to not be able to make tough calls and say no. There is a saying that if you try to please everyone, you please no one but if you design what you feel is right, then in general a good many people will follow and appreciate what you are doing.

 

NQ can't make up their mind about what kind of game DU should be and they do a bit of this, a bit of that and in the end do not finish anything. The core idea of the game was good and had NQ chosen a path to follow and stick to it, creating pillars in the game which all serve the game and not become a goal in and of itself, DU would be a different game now.

 

It's a shame as the potential and promise were always there, NQ just never really saw it or choose to ignore it. And the recent podcasts and half-baked attempts at PR and trying to justify pushing a massive part of what was pitched as the base game (well) beyond "release" is not helping.

 

 

For this supply lines and "military force" as a last option if diplomacy fails means pvp needs to be everywhere.  You understand that right? What you wrote literally advocates removing all safe zones but haven.

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2 hours ago, CousinSal said:

 

For this supply lines and "military force" as a last option if diplomacy fails means pvp needs to be everywhere.  You understand that right? What you wrote literally advocates removing all safe zones but haven.

If all Safe Zones were removed, the game would disappear from the AMrkt faster than it came. But go ahead, you can see how many players are really interested in PvP or even full lootpvp play.

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5 hours ago, Sabretooth said:

Pvp in this state kicks out the creativity of building.

 Strongly disagree. Building within the confines of the PvP environment, making designs that both push the limits and still look good, balancing compromises across the board, is far more interesting for me as a ship builder than making yet another hauler or warp shuttle.

You work with cross sections, keeping an eye on mass the whole time so you can keep your max speed as high as possible, as a fast ship has many advantages over a slow one. You keep an eye on thrust, because the more Gs of thrust you can manage, the faster your ship will accelerate and reach the top speed. But more engines for most thrust means more weight and thus lower top speed. Using more military engines or higher-tier military engines means more fuel consumption. Your decision on which weapon-loadout you equip your ship with also impacts the ship's mass and thus its overall performance. If you pick cannons, you pick close-range weapons that require being able to catch up to targets and get in close to them quick, but cannon ammo is relatively heavy compared to other weapon types. So now you fight the compromises of best-as-can-be top speed, thrust and also your ship's dps.

In contrast you can go big tanky battleship, where top speed falls out of the equation and it's all up to the rest of the stats, with focus less on quickness but how tanky you can make the ship. Also, for the most part, ignores cross sections.

THIS requires you to find creative solutions. It provides challenge. You build a million LEGO things that all do the same, how dull would that be.
 

5 hours ago, Sabretooth said:

Tactics do not exist in this game


What an uninformed statement of someone who does not know what they are talking about. Always so quick to judge when you lack the insight to know better.

All I see here is someone who is willingly not involving themselves with PvP pinning all the blame and all their issues with the game onto this aspect of the game, because that's the easy thing to do. Addition of PvP and their future plans to add more mechanics to it is not something bad, just because you feel whatever you enjoy in this game feels neglected for it. NQ is incredibly slow developing this game, most of what they do nowadays is rosey talk of a dream-like future while at the same time shooting down community feedback to what the community wants to see, saying it's not planned, not happening, not possible, or whatever else excuses they can find. That is on NQ though, not on the fact that PvP exists in this game.

 

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5 hours ago, Sabretooth said:

 

Pvp bashing by me:

Pvp in this game is the fugliest version of space combat i have ever seen, even space invaders is more dynamic, at least you can dodge in space invaders! Territory warfare in this game would be just as ugly, boring and untactical as spacewar in this game is. You cant hide behind an asteroid, so why would you be able to hide behind a hill?

Pvp in this state kicks out the creativity of building. 

Pvp in this game reminds me of those old atari 5600 games, where the box art was nowhere near the ingame screenshots or the gameplay.

Tactics do not exist in this game.

 

In the end, I am sure that this game had more potential for a sandbox building game, than a pvp game.

But hey, nq is trying to proof me wrong, so ill keep an eye out.

 

You seen a Video on youtube and decided that Du pvp was the worst ever. But did you I play DU PvP try it out by yourself?

I play DU PvP from the first day it went live back in Alpha. I would prefer it many times over let's say War Thunder PvP that I played for like 4 years non-stop before getting into DU.

You say there is no strategy in DU PvP which is absolutely wrong. In DU PvP you have a 3D space Map that is empty, yes but the composition of the forces fighting and their setup is very important.

Also to have many hours in combat favors the most experienced pilot in a Fight, not just the elements and talents you bring. This is the only game I know where you can bring your own Design to a Fight that it's not a template served already. In our Alliance we get exited each time there is a fight happening in DU.

If it is that bad how you state why is this so? DU PvP has been badly promoted and has not been made easy to learn for newcomers. 

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It depends on what kind of PvP you like. I don't like DualUniverse PvP either. It's just not fun for me.

What I did enjoy was PvP battles in WoW, whether it was arenas or battlegrounds or openpvp.
I found the battles in GW2 just as interesting and fun. The best I felt, however, Archeage, not only the class diversity itself in PvP, but also the ships, the equipment and the possibilities to use all systems there - first-class and provides many evenings of excitement and fun.

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3 hours ago, CousinSal said:

For this supply lines and "military force" as a last option if diplomacy fails means pvp needs to be everywhere.  You understand that right? What you wrote literally advocates removing all safe zones but haven.

 

I have never said I was against that, in fact I believe it needs to happen once the right mechanics are in the game.

Difference between you and me it seems, is that I see removal of these as a result of progreess in game design while for you it is what you need to make the world burn.

 

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2 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

I have never said I was against that, in fact I believe it needs to happen once the right mechanics are in the game.

Difference between you and me it seems, is that I see removal of these as a result of progreess in game design while for you it is what you need to make the world burn.

 

 

That makes literally no sense what you wrote. I see it as progress and only way to accomplish actually gameplay that you spoke about. Pvpers don't "want to see the world burn" they want a game where they can have freedom and pvp and player driven content like NQ promised us. If the world burned then there wouldn't be a game.  Get your shit together. 

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What also bothers me with this pvp-war thing, is that we have travelled halfway across the galaxy for 10.000 years to find a new home. Leaving our once beautiful earth behind. Finally we have found one, and within 2 months of arrival we are killing each other. Whats the point of saving our race?

Also, I get it if there are big factions that fight over large area's of space and planets that have been aquired over the passing of centuries. That have large factories, space stations and bases.

But the planets and space are still empty here, there is no legacy or anything to fight over. Its just fighting for the sake of fighting. Oh wait, they introduced alien cores. That piece of magic is what its all about after finding a new home, and at least its something.

 

The point of relocating to another galaxy was to build a new world, thats what that arc-ship was for. How are we supposed to build a new world, if nq keeps limiting things.

 

So, as some are claiming that pvp space fights in this game are very cool.

Good for you and enjoy this, what I call, discount space invaders. Everybody has got his own poison.

But for me it still should not be the focus of nq, it should be the building part. As we are BUILDING a new world, not fighting for a world. I like that there is PVP space combat, no matter how fugly, but (I repeat myself) the focus in building a new world should be building..

 

Edited by Sabretooth
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32 minutes ago, Sabretooth said:

 

 

So, as some are claiming that pvp space fights in this game are very cool.

Good for you and enjoy this, what I call, discount space invaders. Everybody has got his own poison.

But for me it still should not be the focus of nq, it should be the building part. As we are BUILDING a new world, not fighting for a world. I like that there is PVP space combat, no matter how fugly, but (I repeat myself) the focus in building a new world should be building..

 

People like different things like it seems you like Gundam from your Profile Picture and for me these the most ugly mechs in existence but me not going to a Mecha Anime Forum to complain about these and make them to be removed

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24 minutes ago, Walter said:

People like different things like it seems you like Gundam from your Profile Picture and for me these the most ugly mechs in existence but me not going to a Mecha Anime Forum to complain about these and make them to be removed

That would also not be purposeful. Here in DualUniverse it is worth discussing, because the development of the game itself is still very shaky and the main contents don't seem to be fixed yet.
What I find funny from the story, everyone who "dies" through their avatar is uploaded back into a new avatar. This starts from the main unit, the colonial ship. Means for me but also that you could at any time with renegade settlers delete this data or prevent the new upload into a new avatar and thus build a peaceful society.

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The goal is, and has always been, to attract both builders and pvpers. The main reason that building features in DU are more polished than the combat ones is simply because they were developed first and NQ has thus had more time to refine them. I think all the key features are now in place and pvp is already becoming quite enjoyable despite its shortcomings. What we really need is a pre-release balance pass for both PVE and PVP. The risk vs reward model needs to be tuned so that the influx of players are more willing to take risks and venture outside the safezone. Either reduce the penalties associated with losing a ship or teach new players, early on, that they should not fly what they can not afford to lose. Also the actual risk need to be relayed better. So many of the players I chat with assume that stepping outside the safezone means instant death when the reality is nothing like that. I know this sounds like common sense but I think it needs to be emphasized.

 

Maybe we need an advanced pvp tutorial or some sort of instanced battleground where players can get a more realistic perspective on pvp?

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1 hour ago, Walter said:

People like different things like it seems you like Gundam from your Profile Picture and for me these the most ugly mechs in existence but me not going to a Mecha Anime Forum to complain about these and make them to be removed

Nice trolling, its Abominus, an american transformer.

And I do not want pvp to be removed. If the story of this game is that we have found a new home and we must build our society, then focus and try to extent the building part. 

The reason people want to destroy, yes that is a complaint from me, but its still a free world and people should do as they please. But I can surely vent my opinion on this, can I?

If you want to wake up after a 10000 year sleep and the first thing you think is: how do I get to be the most powerful and be able to destroy my neighbour, then thats your free opinion. I just think thats nothing to be proud of.

 

49 minutes ago, Msoul said:

The goal is, and has always been, to attract both builders and pvpers. The main reason that building features in DU are more polished than the combat ones is simply because they were developed first and NQ has thus had more time to refine them. I think all the key features are now in place and pvp is already becoming quite enjoyable despite its shortcomings. What we really need is a pre-release balance pass for both PVE and PVP. The risk vs reward model needs to be tuned so that the influx of players are more willing to take risks and venture outside the safezone. Either reduce the penalties associated with losing a ship or teach new players, early on, that they should not fly what they can not afford to lose. Also the actual risk need to be relayed better. So many of the players I chat with assume that stepping outside the safezone means instant death when the reality is nothing like that. I know this sounds like common sense but I think it needs to be emphasized.

 

Maybe we need an advanced pvp tutorial or some sort of instanced battleground where players can get a more realistic perspective on pvp?

There is absolutely no need for players to ever get into the unsafe zone, since you can just warp to the outer planets.

But where are the extra building expansions? We can only make balls of soil, wtf??

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If eve was a PVP only game it would have never survived. If eve was a PVE only game it would have never survived.  I think the same thing applies to DU. If DU was a builders only game, it would not survive. And personally I think the game needs actual PVE content to survive. Because the more demographics you bring into the game the more robust you make it.  

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4 hours ago, blazemonger said:

And with that.. we have identified the problem ..

I am not sure if I would call that a problem. Maybe I am failing to understand your perspective here. Are you saying that incorporating both aspects actually makes the game appeal to a more niche crowd rather than diverse one, or that such a mixture has a reduced chance of success? Either way that was the pitch that got me hooked and I am fairly sure I would not be here had this been solely PvE or PvP oriented. I understand that my perspective is not necessarily representative of the majority but NQ has always been upfront about this intention so I would assume most players here are ok with it.

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4 hours ago, RugesV said:

If eve was a PVP only game it would have never survived. If eve was a PVE only game it would have never survived.  I think the same thing applies to DU. If DU was a builders only game, it would not survive. And personally I think the game needs actual PVE content to survive. Because the more demographics you bring into the game the more robust you make it.  

 

The thing with EvE tho is everyone exists in the "pvp world". When you undock your ship you consent to pvp, verbatim from the devs at CCP.  That matters. It means the whole game world is pvp. But I do agree it needed it's pve also, but once again, it's pve exists within the pvp world.  As shown by the millions that have played eve over 20 years and the 150 people that pvp in DU...that matters. It's everything.

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6 hours ago, CousinSal said:

The thing with EvE tho is everyone exists in the "pvp world". When you undock your ship you consent to pvp, verbatim from the devs at CCP.  

While true, because of the many "safeties" build into the game and the many supportive mechanics and features allowing anyone to travel anywhere (outside of maybe wormholes) and pretty much know what is happening around them, EVE pretty much puts you in control of the amount of risk you are willing to take and will provide means and support to mitigate that risk at pretty much every step.

 

DU has none of that.

 

 

I've said this before, in EVE I would spend most  of my time in null and wormhole space because that is where my activities are and the rewards of these are such that, even when I consider the occasional loss, it's still massively profitable. 

 

DU has none of that.

 

 

In EVE, my activities in null or WH space pay well, they allow me to support my gameplay and enable me to not ever paying a subscription for gametime with $$. At the same time, what I do delivers high tier materials to market which are bought by industrialists who in turn build the modules and ships from the materials I sell to feed into the people playing a more PVP focussed game style.

 

DU has none of that.

 

 

Now, EVE has had many, many years of time to evolve and was released in a very different time. That said though, NQ is clearly trying to kickstart an EVE style MMO but forgot to add the crucial underlying and interconnecting mechanics and features which tie the top-level ones together. Many of which have been pointed out by a good few backers pretty much from the get go but were not once acknowledged by NQ.. not surprising obviously, but it's what happened.

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The theme in this post is to promote building just for the pleasure of building? I don't know if I missed something, but right now that's probably the most powered mechanic in the game, and I don't see the game as overflowing with builders, you don't need any kind of exotic material to build creatively, and there are in the game immense safe areas where to build for the pleasure of building.

 

The issue is that building for the pleasure of building has two problems, the first is that the builders need to show others their works, and the majority of large works built, never they will not be appreciated by anyone, that is why many builders left their ships parked in the markets so that the rest of the players could see them, or put VR stations in the hope that someone would visit their works, the second problem is that when there are no a practical reason to build something, and improve designs, the game ends when the artist's aesthetic inspiration runs out.

 

Honestly, I think it's having a very narrow vision, not realizing that what you're claiming for the game is precisely the only thing that it offers right now, with solvency, and that precisely what the game needs to offer is what attracts another type of players, with an interest in acquiring and admiring the designs of the builders for practical reasons, such as logistics and combat.

 

One of the few things that worked in Starbase were the ship shops designed by other players, and despite the fact that people bought aesthetically beautiful ships, they also chose them for their technical capabilities, I would even dare to say that the technical part weighed more in the decision If the game requires no technical ability of the ships, why is it a sand box, what is the point of building a ship? or buy a ship? enjoy the views? take a screenshot?

 

We are not talking about a minecraft server, where you build on a plot of a city and the rest of the players are dedicated to walking admiring your creation, the game is on a scale too large, so that it can be a creative sand box.

Edited by Sycopata
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3 hours ago, blazemonger said:

Now, EVE has had many, many years of time to evolve and was released in a very different time. That said though, NQ is clearly trying to kickstart an EVE style MMO but forgot to add the crucial underlying and interconnecting mechanics and features which tie the top-level ones together. Many of which have been pointed out by a good few backers pretty much from the get go but were not once acknowledged by NQ.. not surprising obviously, but it's what happened.

 

There has always been something off with NQ. The pace of dev, the tone deaf community interactions, the extreme manager overhead and still complete lack of sound strategic decisions made etc.

 

Like when they hired Hrafnkell Oskarsson back in 2018. And then he left after 8 months, which is more or less as short a time you can realistically stay at a company when it involves moving to a new country and then find a new job before you leave again. And in comparison he worked 16 years at CCP before that and is now closing in on 4 years at 1939 games, so he does not appear to be your typical frequent job switcher/career hunter.

 

And the same goes for many of the key developers that were tasked with building the core technology for NQ, not there anymore and instead we now have people who started in junior or basic roles being lead <some fancy title> after a few years.

 

And interestingly there was hardly any change at all after JC left, so what is it? And I personally hope that someone will come forward and tell the real story, after NQ collapses in a year or two (three?).. If nothing else but to give us closure on this whole mess.

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When Hrafnkell Oskarsson left NQ so quickly many of us saw that as a first major signal something was not going so well. He was probably the one person capable of seeing through the warped reality bubble JC was projecting at the time.

 When you add to that the fact that a pretty substantial portion of the creative team left around the time of the kickstarter and most of them moved to the same studio developing under the Ubisoft umbrella, a picture starts to emerge..

 

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What is in this game that make people think this is the next gen EVE?

Seems more like people try to talk this into the next EVE.

 

Its because of power, who will have the most power in a world wide single server mmo.

Thats why lots of people want a wipe, they have lost against Legion and want a new chance. 

Thats why some want no safe zone and planetary warfare, they want to rule all.

Although the planets still look empty as bleep, its an investment for the near future.

 

If they do wipe, nq can make this solar system half the size for better performance. Remove some planets, nobody is building there anyway.

 

Naaaah.

I still think this game was at it best after 0.23. For me it was too bad that they didnt focus on expanding the building part. sliding doors xs, l or xl. Making use of the element skin tab, having more tools to work with soil.

Have more types of cockpits, hybrid engines, waterengines. 

People could pew pew or build or do whatever. The more you can build the more you can do whatever you want.

 

And yes, CS builders know that a build project can take months or even years. And after all that time, nobody but you knows about it.

The space station I had took me about 7 months to build. Make quanta, get the ore to build, buy the spacecores and elements, building a better ship.... And that was just the groundwork, no decoration or anything.

Decorating it fully would take me at least another year. 

Why? Because there is lots of other things to see and do in this game.

 

But what I did miss the most in this game is the survival aspect. Health bars for food, drink and energy.

Actually making use of the plant element for fruit, the sink for water and chairs and beds for power-up.

 

 

Ok Ok Ok last story:

Late summer 2021 I was on DUCreators website, searching for bp's. When I got the coords, I flew over to alioth, I thought it would be a 2 day trip. Well I spent over 2 weeks on Alioth, admiring the bases and malls that where build where I needed to pick up the bp's .

Some bases where abandoned, I knew that because their shops had old cheap prices. Christmas time!! I would buy up everything until I could carry no more.

If they owners would come back to the game after a break, they would have seen that they didn't build all that for nothing.  Sabretooth was here!!

Too bad you cant leave a message in the message box for the owner.

Then I went home to Thades. And you know, landing on my station really felt like coming home.

 

 

 

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