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These tax rates are absurd.


Vhaeyne
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I don't ever post on here, but I feel that silence is consent and I don't consent. 

 

500k per hex initially. 1mill per week per hex in taxes? 

 

Monthly... maybe? I still don't like that. 

 

Here is the issue. I love DU. I backed it in the Kickstarter. What I don't love is feeling forced to play a game just to keep my progress. 

 

It is why WOW is failing and FFXIV is winning right now. 

 

FFXIV encourages its players to take breaks. "Go play other games for a month or two. Come back fresh and enjoy your time in this game."-basically Yoshi-p 

 

WOW basically does the opposite, and people are fed up with it. Which is why it is dying.

 

Logging in every few days to play a mining mini-game is a lot like WOW asking me to daily quests every day just to have access to the same type of content I can get in FFXIV at any point in the patch cycle. Other players are realizing that you don't have to bust your ass all the time to enjoy an online game.

 

I have a full steam library of voxel games. I assure you, if I wanted to build a big spaceship or space station by myself. I could load up StarMade in a heartbeat and have a good time. 

In some ways, StarMade is a better voxel game than DU. I know many of you will agree with that. If not maybe you like Space Engineers, StarBase, Emyprion, Stationeers, Starship EVO, or something else more? As players, we have options for building ships and stations.

 

The service DU provides is that we are all on a single persistent world. That is the one good stand out thing this game does. I built a god-damn Gundam that waked in Starship Evo back when it was called "Skywanderers"... The voxel tech here is cool, but it's not that impressive. I am actually limiting my build potential by playing DU in some ways.

 

I put up with DU's jank and quirks because of the idea that I don't lose progress when I take breaks. I am good to play a voxel game for two months tops before I need to take a brake for like two to three months. I get burnt out. Same with any other game type. If I lose progress or have to bust my ass to pre-pay my taxes. I just won't. 

 

RECONSIDER THE DAMN TAX RATE. MAYBE MONTLY.

 

CONSIDER ALLOWING MORE THAN ONE FREE HQ TILE.

 

I refuse to be in a situation where I am a slave to this game. I still have the old build on Skywanders on a HDD somewhere where you could build mechs. It would be a lot cooler if I had a reason not to just go do that instead. 

 

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These taxes will discourage old players who left from ever coming back.

 

Like me.

 

After reading I will have to grind funds to either keep any of my claims or lose everything there's no reason to ever play this game again. 

 

The reasoning behind their logic - they need a credit sink. 

 

Yup... no reason to ever come back.

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Do you really need to own tiles beyond the Sanctuary tile? Don't trust those HQ tiles too much either, because if your subscription lapses, they might go poof as well. They mentioned 5 HQ tiles per character (for now).

 

What if you shared a tile with others? What do you need (facilities) to do your thing?

 

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I'm afraid I have no + left to value her contribution.
I agree with the tax opinion. Taxes are implausible and unnecessary, especially since they make no sense in DualUniverse so far.

While they try to justify it by "controlling the areas and doing so through a purge", to do so the mechanic could have been tied to an active subscription quite easily.

I think it's the wrong way to go about it, because the system of compulsory taxation doesn't fit in with the sandbox idea of the game. It would have made more sense to introduce an energy system to power your production lines. There are great elements that could be built into the game. Wind turbines, water turbines, solar panels and everything with different designs to choose from...that would have been ingenious content that also fits into the current climate protection situation in the world.

The taxes, on the other hand, are more compatible with typical f2p or p2w games, the main thing being to forcibly impose a play style on the player. And yes, there is coercion in the game, although freedom was advertised.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

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1 hour ago, Cergorach said:

Do you really need to own tiles beyond the Sanctuary tile? Don't trust those HQ tiles too much either, because if your subscription lapses, they might go poof as well. They mentioned 5 HQ tiles per character (for now).

 

 

As far as I understand it, I would have to start 5 orgs to get these HQ tiles? Why should I have to abuse the org system to get tiles?

 

What if I wanted to just be in some other people orgs? Like the way the game was intended to be played...

 

I could pay a year in advanced every year. I am fine with that. I know it's a bridge to far for many, but I would personally be willing to do that. What I will not do is log in weekley to any game ever.

 

Not weekly, not monthly.

 

I have games tattooed on my body that I don't play even yearly. It's not that I don't like DU, it's that I don't like compulsory commitment. 

 

1 hour ago, Cergorach said:

 

What if you shared a tile with others? What do you need (facilities) to do your thing?

 

 

I claimed a small circle of seven tiles long ago. I have been working the area on and off since the game went persistent. I prefer not to be beholden to that project because the DEVs decided to tax us at an insane rate.

 

To put salt in the wound, they put a 13 week prepay cap on taxes? What if I wanted to grind out a years worth of peace of mind? I can't even do that.

 

The upkeep and restrictions are just too much for me. I can see some tax on a ton of land, but a lot of tax on a little land kills me.

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I have to agree with this, the taxes are too high and they need to increase the time you can store taxes to 6 months.  I do like the fact you can have 5 HQ tiles though, that is a nice addition.

I am not currently playing though, waiting for the game to actually launch before I stress about stuff.  I will play very differently when the game is live if they keep the tile taxes like this.  No more bases on every planet :(

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22 minutes ago, Vhaeyne said:

As far as I understand it, I would have to start 5 orgs to get these HQ tiles? Why should I have to abuse the org system to get tiles?

You understand incorrectly. HQ tiles cannot be linked to orgs, but can only be designated on tiles that are claimed by the player and NOT the org. Then you have 5 HQ tiles per character, as long as the subscription is paid. If you want to mine or produce on a tile, you pay taxes. If not, that ability goes away until you pay taxes again. I think that HQ tiles are horribly named as many directly link that to orgs.

 

I also highly dislike that we loose persistence, especially when we do not pay subscription (playing EVE off and on again since 2005). But this is going to be in the game, no matter how hard we wine... So let's make the best of it. I'm making a BIG vault on sanctuary, production facilities are moving to space bases, etc. Like other games it's Adapt or Die (or Leave?)...

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2 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

You understand incorrectly. HQ tiles cannot be linked to orgs, but can only be designated on tiles that are claimed by the player and NOT the org. Then you have 5 HQ tiles per character, as long as the subscription is paid. If you want to mine or produce on a tile, you pay taxes. If not, that ability goes away until you pay taxes again. I think that HQ tiles are horribly named as many directly link that to orgs.

 

Thank you for clearing that up. It gives me something to think about.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

 

I also highly dislike that we loose persistence, especially when we do not pay subscription (playing EVE off and on again since 2005). But this is going to be in the game, no matter how hard we wine... So let's make the best of it. I'm making a BIG vault on sanctuary, production facilities are moving to space bases, etc. Like other games it's Adapt or Die (or Leave?)...

 

It does not have to be in the game to the extent that they are proposing. Like I said at the start of this thread. Silence is consent.

 

I have been content to lurk these forums for years now without saying anything. Nothing has been that big of a deal to me. This is a big deal to me.

 

Adapt, die or leave.... I don't know what I will do.

 

I know I can't be trusted to log in every 13 weeks. Even if I pre-paid the sub a whole year. There are times when I am just too deep into something else. 

 

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1 hour ago, Zarcata said:

What about those players for whom these 13 weeks are not enough? Many people are deployed abroad and often have no access at all, and these deployments can last 6 months.
I'm happy to take out an annual subscription, but these taxes are a disgrace!

 

If it came down to it. I am dumb enough to get scammed into paying a yearly sub for the piece of mind that my shit will be there when I log into the game.

 

I have been deployed, and I feel some your pain. I know how shitty it is to lose access to all of your steam games because you can't connect your computer to the internet for 8 months. I don't know if that is still the way it works, but I have had to deal with that shit policy. Not being able to play the games is bad enough, but in your case, you are losing shit in the game on top of everything else involved in deployment. 

 

I can only imagine if I was in your shoes, having to ask my friends to log into a game to pay my game taxes for me every 13 weeks.

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3 hours ago, Vhaeyne said:

FFXIV encourages its players to take breaks. "Go play other games for a month or two. Come back fresh and enjoy your time in this game."-basically Yoshi-p 

This is really interesting perspective, too bad NQ thinks just the opposite. 

 

NQ seems to have a knack for discovering the most tedious and polar opposite of what FUN should be. 

 

Lets design a game that is similar to sailing a boat with many holes. You have to spend most of your time plugging the leaks and bailing the water (ie paying taxes). If you dont do this consistently, the ship goes down. If you dont have enough time to plug the holes and bail water, the ship goes down. IF you bail out all of the water, NOW you can start playing but wait, the water never stops coming in so sooner or later, its back to bailing water. Some of us may not have enough time unless this balanced correctly and at 1M per week, per tile, I can tell you my kids will hate me for playing this tax simulator. 

 

Considering that 0.23 took out a huge chunk of players and NQ didnt revert those changes but pushed on, I imagine the same will happen here. Perhaps the taxes will be adjusted down but they will persist and keep the chance long term. I dont want to renew and have my sub counted as a returning player so things are looking up. I'll hold me breath, wait for all my progress to sink with the unpaid taxes and then there wont be any reason to come back. 

 

Thanks for breaking my heart again NQ. 

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28 minutes ago, RumRunner25 said:

This is really interesting perspective, too bad NQ thinks just the opposite. 

 

NQ seems to have a knack for discovering the most tedious and polar opposite of what FUN should be. 

 

Lets design a game that is similar to sailing a boat with many holes. You have to spend most of your time plugging the leaks and bailing the water (ie paying taxes). If you dont do this consistently, the ship goes down. If you dont have enough time to plug the holes and bail water, the ship goes down. IF you bail out all of the water, NOW you can start playing but wait, the water never stops coming in so sooner or later, its back to bailing water. Some of us may not have enough time unless this balanced correctly and at 1M per week, per tile, I can tell you my kids will hate me for playing this tax simulator. 

 

Considering that 0.23 took out a huge chunk of players and NQ didnt revert those changes but pushed on, I imagine the same will happen here. Perhaps the taxes will be adjusted down but they will persist and keep the chance long term. I dont want to renew and have my sub counted as a returning player so things are looking up. I'll hold me breath, wait for all my progress to sink with the unpaid taxes and then there wont be any reason to come back. 

 

Thanks for breaking my heart again NQ. 

 

You catch more flys with honey...

 

I can understand not getting any ore for the pay periods you don't pay taxes. I just can't understand punishing players so harshly for taking breaks. 

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1 hour ago, Vhaeyne said:

 

If it came down to it. I am dumb enough to get scammed into paying a yearly sub for the piece of mind that my shit will be there when I log into the game.

 

I have been deployed, and I feel some your pain. I know how shitty it is to lose access to all of your steam games because you can't connect your computer to the internet for 8 months. I don't know if that is still the way it works, but I have had to deal with that shit policy. Not being able to play the games is bad enough, but in your case, you are losing shit in the game on top of everything else involved in deployment. 

 

I can only imagine if I was in your shoes, having to ask my friends to log into a game to pay my game taxes for me every 13 weeks.


steam has gotten a lot better about this, and offline works in offline now.  used to be that Steam was in a constant war against offline mode.  Disabling all work arounds as we came up with them(for keeping Steam in offline).    But now as long as you don’t try to go online it’ll stay offline.

 

(felt that as a Navy Nuke.   Even EvE didn’t get the long skill queue till I retired).

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1 hour ago, RumRunner25 said:

Considering that 0.23 took out a huge chunk of players and NQ didnt revert those changes but pushed on, I imagine the same will happen here.

In order to make it fully consistent with 0.23 they could also make an error that allows some players do pay years in advance with 1% of the usual tax.

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4 hours ago, Vhaeyne said:

Logging in every few days to play a mining mini-game is a lot like WOW asking me to daily quests every day just to have access to the same type of content I can get in FFXIV at any point in the patch cycle.

 

Yup, the first thing I thought about when taxes were suggested was current Retail WoW. I only played the expansion for a few weeks before the daily to-do list just got too tedious. The problem was that the to-do list was tied to progression. Classic TBC is much more fun as whilst there are lots of daily things you CAN do, you don't have to do them in order to progress. 

 

Auto-mining and taxes are directly linked to progression, as you need ore to do anything in-game and you need tiles to build on. So we are now forced into certain gameplay in order to keep our tiles and gather resources to actually play. 

 

Ppl should want to login to a game, not be forced to on fear of losing their stuff, or not progressing. It might work for mobile games, but not for a sandbox mmo.

 

I guess we'll see how it pans out, but it seems like a short-sighted change to force ppl to keep playing (i.e. paying subs).

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8 hours ago, Bobbie said:

As far as I know, it's against the ToS/EULA to share your account with anyone.

 

Probably nobody cares. Until something happens and NQ refuses support, that is.

 

Right, you should not have to break ToS/EULA of a game so that  you can keep your progress and your commitment to your country. 

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So you can build on five hexes on Alioth.  One on the Sanctuary moon.  And as many as you want in space.  All without paying any taxes.

 

The only reason you would need to pay any taxes is if you wanted to use the hexes for mining or industry.  In which case i think you're supposed to make enough money to cover the taxes.  

 

I don't think there is any reason to pay the taxes on a hex unless it's going to produce enough mining revenue to pay for itself.

 

I have no idea whether the tax is too high or not.  But as someone who just wants to screw around and build stuff on a few hexes, this isn't going to affect me at all.

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4 hours ago, Atmosph3rik said:

So you can build on five hexes on Alioth.  One on the Sanctuary moon.  And as many as you want in space.  All without paying any taxes.

 

The only reason you would need to pay any taxes is if you wanted to use the hexes for mining or industry.  In which case i think you're supposed to make enough money to cover the taxes.  

 

I don't think there is any reason to pay the taxes on a hex unless it's going to produce enough mining revenue to pay for itself.

 

I have no idea whether the tax is too high or not.  But as someone who just wants to screw around and build stuff on a few hexes, this isn't going to affect me at all.

 

You can lose your shit if you have more than 5 tiles.

 

That is the issue.

 

Not being able to produce on a tile with unpaid taxes seems like a fair enough game mechanic. Losing shit does not seem fair.

 

I don't know how many "free" tiles is too many, but 5 is too little. Especially if you built stuff before all of this was decided.

 

The issue is being a SLAVE to the game at a minimum of every 13 weeks. I don't know about you, but being in debt and potentially losing some of my shit every time I take a brake is just not going to make me want to come back to the game.

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Taxes, or something, have been needed for a while. There MUST be money sinks and there MUST be some incentive to NOT lock up dozens and hundreds of tiles. I - like everyone else, will have to adjust. I will drop a few tiles to which I have kept because I had no reason otherwise. Ultimately, this will be good for the long-term of DU. 

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6 hours ago, Doombad said:

Taxes, or something, have been needed for a while. There MUST be money sinks and there MUST be some incentive to NOT lock up dozens and hundreds of tiles. I - like everyone else, will have to adjust. I will drop a few tiles to which I have kept because I had no reason otherwise. Ultimately, this will be good for the long-term of DU. 

 

I can agree that there should be a cost to having HUNDREDS of tiles. Hell, I can agree to a cost to TENS of Tiles. Five tiles just seems a little small.

 

There is a way they can do this without it being so punishing. I prefer not to be in debt every time I come back to the game from a few month break.

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3 minutes ago, Vhaeyne said:

 

I can agree that there should be a cost to having HUNDREDS of tiles. Hell, I can agree to a cost to TENS of Tiles. Five tiles just seems a little small.

 

There is a way they can do this without it being so punishing. I prefer not to be in debt every time I come back to the game from a few month break.

 

If you take more than a month youll likely be debt free. From what they said you had to laod the quanta into each of the tus you wanted to keep manually. I havent seen any kind of correction so you might come back to nothing if you dont play for 30 days and the jawas loot everything you had not in your bank account.

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7 hours ago, Doombad said:

Taxes, or something, have been needed for a while. There MUST be money sinks and there MUST be some incentive to NOT lock up dozens and hundreds of tiles. I - like everyone else, will have to adjust. I will drop a few tiles to which I have kept because I had no reason otherwise. Ultimately, this will be good for the long-term of DU. 

 

They just need to plud up the Quanta printer the mission system is by using the market taxes to pay for it. They then could lessen the taxes for most basic ores if they taxed higher tier tieles appropriately for having and holding higher value tiles vs this tax adjustor approach of pushing all the tax on everyone else so their taxes are low on juice tiles/clusters. When the market needs tomething to burn the infinately finite ore pool coming into the game since sure if you fuck up you might have to repair every once in a while if the system glitches and breaks something. Beyond that nothing will keep the ore flowing without both destructive elements and the same efficiency mechanic of the auto miners themselves based on useage and causing damage to elements being used and thus reducing efficiency and requiring repairs rather than charges. Hell they could even cause slight damage to everything in a tile every tax cycle if they wanted as a sink as eriosion.

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1 minute ago, Warlander said:

 

If you take more than a month youll likely be debt free. From what they said you had to laod the quanta into each of the tus you wanted to keep manually. I havent seen any kind of correction so you might come back to nothing if you dont play for 30 days and the jawas loot everything you had not in your bank account.

 

You can only prepay 13 weeks. Which is a stupid limitation. We are already assuming I am leaving my sub going for the life of the game to keep my five HQs, so they might as well let me prepay longer than 13 weeks. 

 

In addition, you pay weekly. So, debt starts after a week of unpaid taxes. 

 

To take an extended vacation from the game, I would have to bust my ass saving for it and come back ready to grind right away. I could potentially come back too broke to fire my tiles back up and make any money.

 

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