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Minning Unit Comming : Need Better PvP [Before Demeter]


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Hello, I allow myself to re up the discussion on PvP.
A while back I commented on the latest PvP balancing (APOLLO + ARES) This post generated a lot of reaction and comment :
 

Basically nothing has been done and nothing has been changed.
 

The PvP in the game is in the foreseeable state for which we alerted you to NQ.

There are large fleets of Nano L without a voxel.

We're on a building game and people who build non-Nano ships get a PvP penalty.

The arrival of the DEMETER Patch will push everyone into PvP Zone !

If nothing is done to improve PvP before it arrives it will be dramatic for a large portion of the player.

I allow myself to suggest some "quick" change that can be made that will allow for a healthier game for everyone in PvP :

1) Modification of the cross section mechanics :
 

The chances of a hit should no longer be determined based on the elements / voxels that you put on your ship.
=> These must be determined by the size of the Core Unit.
This will allow people to have fancy design SCFI ships and not be penalized in combat.
If you want to have a ship with less chance of getting hit: use a smaller sized core.

2) Modified firing ranges for weapons

A weapon larger than the size of the attacked core must not be able to hit that ship.
If an XS weapon has 30 kilometers of range. A core L will only be able to start shooting at it at 50 kilometers range.
You already have the "CORE UNIT LOCK DISTANCE" feature in the game. You just have to reactivate it.

This will give people a chance to try to escape

3) Shield balancing
So that there is no new abuse on the shields, they must be limited in use.
Shield L only on ship L, shield M only on ship M ect ...
You did it for the weapons (offensive means), the defensive means must be balanced the same.

-----------------------------------

 

I will be satisfied with these 3 essential changes for the good health of the PvP in game.
It's not perfect, but it give the time for you think and experience better system for 2022.
 

As it stands, you are going to send hundreds of unprepared players to their deaths.

And the frustration will be there.

 

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i would be even more happy if you couldn't have pvp ship battles at 1-2SU distance. The space battles in the videos are all in close proximity. Also, it needs a rework of the stats to adjust the ammo weight, but also the strengths/weaknesses of the weapons. It's not a rock-paper-scissors principle, unfortunately, but a laser beats everything else.

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20 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:

 

The chances of a hit should no longer be determined based on the elements / voxels that you put on your ship.
=> These must be determined by the size of the Core Unit.
This will allow people to have fancy design SCFI ships and not be penalized in combat.
If you want to have a ship with less chance of getting hit: use a smaller sized core.

+

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On 10/24/2021 at 5:09 AM, Knight-Sevy said:

Hello, I allow myself to re up the discussion on PvP.
A while back I commented on the latest PvP balancing (APOLLO + ARES) This post generated a lot of reaction and comment :
 

Basically nothing has been done and nothing has been changed.
 

The PvP in the game is in the foreseeable state for which we alerted you to NQ.

There are large fleets of Nano L without a voxel.

We're on a building game and people who build non-Nano ships get a PvP penalty.

The arrival of the DEMETER Patch will push everyone into PvP Zone !

If nothing is done to improve PvP before it arrives it will be dramatic for a large portion of the player.

I allow myself to suggest some "quick" change that can be made that will allow for a healthier game for everyone in PvP :

1) Modification of the cross section mechanics :
 

The chances of a hit should no longer be determined based on the elements / voxels that you put on your ship.
=> These must be determined by the size of the Core Unit.
This will allow people to have fancy design SCFI ships and not be penalized in combat.
If you want to have a ship with less chance of getting hit: use a smaller sized core.

2) Modified firing ranges for weapons

A weapon larger than the size of the attacked core must not be able to hit that ship.
If an XS weapon has 30 kilometers of range. A core L will only be able to start shooting at it at 50 kilometers range.
You already have the "CORE UNIT LOCK DISTANCE" feature in the game. You just have to reactivate it.

This will give people a chance to try to escape

3) Shield balancing
So that there is no new abuse on the shields, they must be limited in use.
Shield L only on ship L, shield M only on ship M ect ...
You did it for the weapons (offensive means), the defensive means must be balanced the same.

-----------------------------------

 

I will be satisfied with these 3 essential changes for the good health of the PvP in game.
It's not perfect, but it give the time for you think and experience better system for 2022.
 

As it stands, you are going to send hundreds of unprepared players to their deaths.

And the frustration will be there.

 



You must have missed the part where they said there were more PVP changes already slated for DEMETER.

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On 10/24/2021 at 10:24 AM, Zarcata said:

i would be even more happy if you couldn't have pvp ship battles at 1-2SU distance. The space battles in the videos are all in close proximity. Also, it needs a rework of the stats to adjust the ammo weight, but also the strengths/weaknesses of the weapons. It's not a rock-paper-scissors principle, unfortunately, but a laser beats everything else.

 

Probably 50% of prospective players will be turned off by this alone (maybe more). 

 

Demeter might be what some players need to finally try PvP....but will they enjoy it? 

 

Realism is all well and good, but realism isn't the objective of any game -- every choice has to be driven by game design, not "how would this work in real life". This idea has been brought up a few times in the forum's history. 

 

Since things like Avatar vs. Avatar and Territory War are still just myths, they definitely need some deep cycles on PvP beyond small tweaks...

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On 10/24/2021 at 1:09 PM, Knight-Sevy said:

basically nothing has been done and nothing has been changed.

 

So,. what else is new /s

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11 hours ago, Nayropux said:

Cross section is important and shouldn't be removed. People should be rewarded for optimizing their ships; they shouldn't just be aesthetics only.

 

This is already what we are doing.
We have built only 1 ship optimized.
Our entire fleet is made of this single optimized vessel with its shoebox-shaped design.

My god this game is boring.

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On 10/26/2021 at 12:23 AM, ShippyLongstalking said:

 

Probably 50% of prospective players will be turned off by this alone (maybe more). 

 

Demeter might be what some players need to finally try PvP....but will they enjoy it? 

 

Realism is all well and good, but realism isn't the objective of any game -- every choice has to be driven by game design, not "how would this work in real life". This idea has been brought up a few times in the forum's history. 

 

Since things like Avatar vs. Avatar and Territory War are still just myths, they definitely need some deep cycles on PvP beyond small tweaks...

 

Maybe major changes for PvP are already planned with Demeter, but nothing has been communicated to us.

We are still waiting for the team to share about their vision for PvP.


A video as qualitative as the one they produced for Demeter would be highly appreciated.

 

----------------------------------------

 

In reality the main problem for me is the dissonance between the strengths of the game, or what is put forward. And the actual gameplay mechanics.

 

The voxel build is the strong point of the game. I understand the need to add the shield for PvP so that we do not use voxel in PvP and thus reduce financial costs.
=> If it's a question of survival for the game: ok with that.

 

On the other hand, preventing players from playing with constructions of the size and shape they dream of is simply intolerable.

 

Why is this cross section the determining factor for the life or death of a construct in a PvP zone?


There are dozens of ways to do this and the one chosen is the one that prevents players from doing diversified voxel builds.

Fix this pls NQ

 

--------------------------------------

 

To this must be added the need to make PvP more fun and interesting. It is one thing that a core size dominates the meta or that a weapon does.
But this must be a different balancing issue compared to the voxel "skin" a player can put on their PvP ship.

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Flying shoe boxes on tiny cross section on the biggest core size is the most laughable thing about DU.........  Yes lets flip the how XS core with L weapons (previous meta) to Smaller core size shoe boxes with L weapons to simulate those smaller core sizes to reduce hit chance....

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There are so many games where PvP is a lot of fun, whether you win or lose there. Is it so hard to take some of the content and mechanics from these games and add them to DualUniverse? At the moment, the PvP in the game is the worst I've ever experienced.

Oh what I would give for the PvP from archeage with the ships to be implemented here in DualUniverse as a space variant. We would have a lot of fun!

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There is more than balance issue NQ needs to fix- the underlaying network code and client side of PVP needs a complete overhaul.

 

Let me explain why:  As it stands, your FPS dictates your max speed in flight- and if you have any sorts of lag your ship will burn more fuel, and be slower doing it. Literally- Max Speed in DU is dictated by your frames per second, haulers going max speed can be more easily caught up to because their 29,999kph is not the same as a nano-ship flying at it due to frame lag. This also plays into laggy L core ships, and their fuel consumption/sluggishness. Have extensively tested this, its disgusting...

If you open/close your map really quickly over and over you can lag out your client, and because your client is responsible for your ships physics and "state" you stop taking damage and stop moving while this happens. 

and don't get me started on client side game "hacks/cheats" since EQ8 is easy to bypass with a bit of noodling, and with the game giving authority to the client- lots of baaaaaaad stuff can and will happen if this game ever gains popularity, I don't know if NQ even has the tools in place to check server side from what I gather. Every online PVP game has to deal with this issue, and I don't think it's even on NQ's radar.  

DU's PVP is broken, like quite literally- on the technical side. With them pushing it more and more and forcing players into it, without doing the work to make it work right... is extremely concerning and WILL bite them in the butt, if not already is as most that get into PVP at a serious level see how broken it can be and are turned off by it. Could write an entire breakdown/paper on how bad it is- what's mentioned here is only the tip of the iceberg.

If NQ can fix these issues, and balance PVP a bit- I'd quite enjoy getting into it more. 

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2 hours ago, BlindingBright said:

There is more than balance issue NQ needs to fix- the underlaying network code and client side of PVP needs a complete overhaul.

 

Let me explain why:  As it stands, your FPS dictates your max speed in flight- and if you have any sorts of lag your ship will burn more fuel, and be slower doing it. Literally- Max Speed in DU is dictated by your frames per second, haulers going max speed can be more easily caught up to because their 29,999kph is not the same as a nano-ship flying at it due to frame lag. This also plays into laggy L core ships, and their fuel consumption/sluggishness. Have extensively tested this, its disgusting...

If you open/close your map really quickly over and over you can lag out your client, and because your client is responsible for your ships physics and "state" you stop taking damage and stop moving while this happens. 

and don't get me started on client side game "hacks/cheats" since EQ8 is easy to bypass with a bit of noodling, and with the game giving authority to the client- lots of baaaaaaad stuff can and will happen if this game ever gains popularity, I don't know if NQ even has the tools in place to check server side from what I gather. Every online PVP game has to deal with this issue, and I don't think it's even on NQ's radar.  

DU's PVP is broken, like quite literally- on the technical side. With them pushing it more and more and forcing players into it, without doing the work to make it work right... is extremely concerning and WILL bite them in the butt, if not already is as most that get into PVP at a serious level see how broken it can be and are turned off by it. Could write an entire breakdown/paper on how bad it is- what's mentioned here is only the tip of the iceberg.

If NQ can fix these issues, and balance PVP a bit- I'd quite enjoy getting into it more. 

 

What our fine Lady said.  NQ take note.

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On 10/24/2021 at 8:09 AM, Knight-Sevy said:


The arrival of the DEMETER Patch will push everyone into PvP Zone !

 

Why do you think this?

 

I think people will warp to a planet, scan, set up a base with a mining unit and either recover the ore by warp or put up missions for haulers to move the ore to where they need it. Most people will stay out of the PVP zone except for the pro-haulers and whatever you call the players who attack unarmed ships (they're certainly not PVPers).

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47 minutes ago, Daphne Jones said:

Why do you think this?

 

I think people will warp to a planet, scan, set up a base with a mining unit and either recover the ore by warp or put up missions for haulers to move the ore to where they need it. Most people will stay out of the PVP zone except for the pro-haulers and whatever you call the players who attack unarmed ships (they're certainly not PVPers).

 

I think this because harvesting ore from asteroids will be the fastest way to get a good amount of ore.

The players are generally impatient.
 If someone is missing a few thousand cubic meters to finish a project. He's not going to wait 1 week.

And for the question of unarmed people who get killed in a PvP zone.
NQ was clear on this: You go out in zone PvP you are PvP players.
Whether it shocks your fragile little person or not. These are the rules of the game, it is not you who decide them.

By the way for a more complete answer:
From the moment a player tries to gain an economic advantage from the game it is PvP.

A ship L armed to protect itself against pirates costs 100/200 million.
After that those who do not make the effort to arm themselves make unfair competition.
It is therefore normal that they are killed by other players who make the effort to are.

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8 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:

NQ was clear on this: You go out in zone PvP you are PvP players.

That is a very limited view. There is more than one black and white drawer, the world is colourful!

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8 hours ago, Zarcata said:

That is a very limited view. There is more than one black and white drawer, the world is colourful!

 

I'd tend to agree with @Knight-Sevy -- if PvP was engaging, well balanced, and fun.

 

DU's model of combat is none of those, at least in my opinion. It's laggy, clunky, and boring. 

 

This has nothing to do with believing that some gamers are "fragile little people" (arbitrary value judgements are soooo common when talking about PvP it's hilarious) -- it's about a design that does not properly balance PvP's risk vs. reward or create an interesting PvP experience in general. 

 

NQ sucks at game design overall, that should be fairly obvious to anyone that's been around for a while...and PvP requires solid design above all else. 

 

I think it's interesting that very few people try to argue that PvP is fun, they argue that "you must PvP because that's what NQ says" 🤔 

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2 hours ago, ShippyLongstalking said:

 

I'd tend to agree with @Knight-Sevy -- if PvP was engaging, well balanced, and fun.

 

DU's model of combat is none of those, at least in my opinion. It's laggy, clunky, and boring. 

 

This has nothing to do with believing that some gamers are "fragile little people" (arbitrary value judgements are soooo common when talking about PvP it's hilarious) -- it's about a design that does not properly balance PvP's risk vs. reward or create an interesting PvP experience in general. 

 

NQ sucks at game design overall, that should be fairly obvious to anyone that's been around for a while...and PvP requires solid design above all else. 

 

I think it's interesting that very few people try to argue that PvP is fun, they argue that "you must PvP because that's what NQ says" 🤔 

 

I am tired.
 

I'm making a post just to try and help improve the PVP game for everyone.
 

And the only remark I get is "they're certainly not PVPers".
 

So yeah Daphne Jones deserves only my contempt if her only contributions are that kind of speaking.

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4 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:

 

I am tired.
 

I'm making a post just to try and help improve the PVP game for everyone.
 

And the only remark I get is "they're certainly not PVPers".
 

So yeah Daphne Jones deserves only my contempt if her only contributions are that kind of speaking.

 

Don't take it personally...No one deserves contempt for speaking their mind. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. 

 

No one knows your intent from across a screen -- and you don't know the intent of other users, either.

 

What makes you think Daphne isn't trying to improve the game....? Because they don't agree with you...? 

 

23 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:

Whether it shocks your fragile little person or not. These are the rules of the game, it is not you who decide them.

 

So what Daphne said was somehow offensive...? But this is totally fine...? Maybe the problem is ego, not substance, because Daphne's statement was far more polite than yours. Seems a bit fragile to me. 

 

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38 minutes ago, ShippyLongstalking said:

 

Don't take it personally...No one deserves contempt for speaking their mind. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. 

 

No one knows your intent from across a screen -- and you don't know the intent of other users, either.

 

What makes you think Daphne isn't trying to improve the game....? Because they don't agree with you...? 

 

 

So what Daphne said was somehow offensive...? But this is totally fine...? Maybe the problem is ego, not substance, because Daphne's statement was far more polite than yours. Seems a bit fragile to me. 

 


 

We are constantly under attack from agressive PvE players.
 

You insult us all day long on all subjects relating to PvP.
 

While more often than not you can't even judge this gameplay. 

Do not be arrogant by coming to tell me again that the problem comes from us.
 

PVP IS PART OF THE GAME.

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DU for the PvPers is an irritating drag of patience. Sadly I have to agree that there is no quick fix for the combat part of the game, not by a long shot. Not only is the balance and design just simply bad but the bugs and desync is so deep routed its very troubling for DU’s future. 
 

Combat definitely needs a ton of attention and a few more dedicated major updates before it can even be considered viable or “fun”. However NQ has stated they wish to release by around summer next year. It will be very interesting seeing the road map update coming because even at current pace that gives NQ 3 more major updates after Juno.

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On 10/26/2021 at 10:11 PM, Knight-Sevy said:

 

This is already what we are doing.
We have built only 1 ship optimized.
Our entire fleet is made of this single optimized vessel with its shoebox-shaped design.

My god this game is boring.

This is not an issue with cross section, but an issue of not enough limitations on ships. Things like power systems, cross section, etc force you to choose what goes on a ship. This promotes the creation of ships for specific roles instead of making a jack of all trades. Removing cross section does not result in more ship types. It results in the exact same ship with different meaningless skins wrapped over it. A game with 0 depth.

 

I am familiar with the SNS ship. I think it is fine for your needs, but I also completely disagree that it is truly optimized.

 

If you dislike only running one type of ship, you should be campaigning for more limitations on ships and ways to specialize. Removing cross section does the exact opposite of what you want; unless you only care about how ships look.

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2 hours ago, Nayropux said:

This is not an issue with cross section, but an issue of not enough limitations on ships. Things like power systems, cross section, etc force you to choose what goes on a ship. This promotes the creation of ships for specific roles instead of making a jack of all trades. Removing cross section does not result in more ship types. It results in the exact same ship with different meaningless skins wrapped over it. A game with 0 depth.

 

I am familiar with the SNS ship. I think it is fine for your needs, but I also completely disagree that it is truly optimized.

 

If you dislike only running one type of ship, you should be campaigning for more limitations on ships and ways to specialize. Removing cross section does the exact opposite of what you want; unless you only care about how ships look.


 

The strong point of the game is the voxel building.

So yes I do care about the visual aspect of the ships.
 

Failing to do a good PvP, first make sure that we can at least use cool ships.
 

Regarding SNS ships, we have not experienced any defeat at the time of this writing. So they are optimized for our needs.
You may have different needs and you will choose another option: so much the better.
 

On the other hand, the guiding thread will always be the same: Ultra reduced cross section to combine with your shield.
If you come across another vessel that has more cross section than you it is a no match for her.
 

=> And my diatribes are only immersed parts of the work to be done. I am not against the specializations of the roles of the ships (on the contrary!).
 

This forum post is just one of the ways NQ can take to improve the current PvP without spending too much time.

This remains a dead letter for the moment.

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