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LEGION has won DU


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1 hour ago, Hirnsausen said:

Did you not enjoy building your ship(s)..?

Every player I asked, does not enjoy to lose ship, cargo, past effort, and game character life. Do you enjoy losing your ship and game character life?

Hmm this is actually an interesting point to me. In nearly all games I don’t care at all about loosing ships / characters / assets in PvP because I gained my experience from fighting that makes me better for the next fight and so on after that.
 

However in DU there really is next to no experience to gain because there is next to nothing to learn in pvp. It’s way way way to vanilla and requires no skill to do. This is a major part on where DU fails it’s player base because there is next to no skill progression from experience in combat its self. 

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Once upon a time, back in alpha times, i tried to explain how this game was moving towards a model where 1 guy/group would rule over everyone. 

I explained how this was unsustainable. 

I explained how at the end, the dream of building a civilization would be reduced to 1 or 2 groups killing everyone not in agreement with them and heavly exploiting the rest. 

 

At that time, i was called a pvp hater and a carebear. 

 

Fortunately the pvp safezone was never removed, like those "pvpers" wanted. 

 

Can you imagine how would the user experiance be if anywhere outside the sanctuary moon was like this? 

 

The thing with pure, unrestricted pvp is that only 1 guy wins for 1000 that loses. 

This is unsustainable. 

 

The solution? PVE NPCs, ship wrecks, avandoned bases, "kill this NPC" missions. 

 

And i know someone will say that the problem is because if some part of pvp being badly implemented. But thats not the real problem. 

 

If we have an unstable system, any movement will make it go wrong. 

If we have a stable system, it will have the resistance to sustain any movement. 

 

DU's model of only player combat, only pvp is unstable and cannot provide a resilient sustainable joy and entertainment to its playerbase. 

 

DU managers have to understand that they cant have 95% of the players suffering heavy losses and sadness while they focus on how good the game is if you are those 5% that are wining. 

 

And its not about what can those 95% can do to improve their situation. Because if 5% of those 95% become the new alpha hunters, the other 90 will still continue to suffer. 

 

Please NQ. Talk to a expert in gaming user experiance and ask him/her if you have a sustainable game. 

Please. 

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25 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

Once upon a time, back in alpha times, i tried to explain how this game was moving towards a model where 1 guy/group would rule over everyone. 

I explained how this was unsustainable. 

I explained how at the end, the dream of building a civilization would be reduced to 1 or 2 groups killing everyone not in agreement with them and heavly exploiting the rest. 

 

At that time, i was called a pvp hater and a carebear. 

 

Fortunately the pvp safezone was never removed, like those "pvpers" wanted. 

 

Can you imagine how would the user experiance be if anywhere outside the sanctuary moon was like this? 

 

The thing with pure, unrestricted pvp is that only 1 guy wins for 1000 that loses. 

This is unsustainable. 

 

The solution? PVE NPCs, ship wrecks, avandoned bases, "kill this NPC" missions. 

 

And i know someone will say that the problem is because if some part of pvp being badly implemented. But thats not the real problem. 

 

If we have an unstable system, any movement will make it go wrong. 

If we have a stable system, it will have the resistance to sustain any movement. 

 

DU's model of only player combat, only pvp is unstable and cannot provide a resilient sustainable joy and entertainment to its playerbase. 

 

DU managers have to understand that they cant have 95% of the players suffering heavy losses and sadness while they focus on how good the game is if you are those 5% that are wining. 

 

And its not about what can those 95% can do to improve their situation. Because if 5% of those 95% become the new alpha hunters, the other 90 will still continue to suffer. 

 

Please NQ. Talk to a expert in gaming user experiance and ask him/her if you have a sustainable game. 

Please. 

PvP combat has to come before PVE combat mate. PVE combat is PVP with an AI bolted on.

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1 minute ago, joaocordeiro said:

 

Does it? Cant NQ implement NPCs while fixing PVP issues?

One of the biggest problems with Combat is how basic it is. If you have looked at combat screen you know what I mean. NQ has only just implemented 1 feature that makes you make 1 decision during combat, when to vent shield. We need many many more choices / options and more immersive systems in combat before NQ can even think about slapping a bunch of server generated ships around with an AI bolted on since the PvP combat system will be the foundation of any hope of a PVE combat system. Get one right before you do the other.  

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8 minutes ago, Physics said:

One of the biggest problems with Combat is how basic it is. If you have looked at combat screen you know what I mean. NQ has only just implemented 1 feature that makes you make 1 decision during combat, when to vent shield. We need many many more choices / options and more immersive systems in combat before NQ can even think about slapping a bunch of server generated ships around with an AI bolted on since the PvP combat system will be the foundation of any hope of a PVE combat system. Get one right before you do the other.  

 

Lets look at empyrion, there is still de-sync and combat issues, yet there have been NPCs for years. 

And ppl still have fun with the game, even being quite buggy. Because there more joy than pain. 

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In PvP I find it very unbalanced at the moment anyway. Why should a 1-seater L-Core ship be equal to a fully manned L-Core battleship with 5-10 players on board?

As far as PvP with ships is concerned, I keep thinking back to archeage, where there were breathtaking game mechanics between the ships and the interaction of the group. If you could add such depth and group play like there in DualUniverse - I would become a great PvP player again. But as long as that's all the PvP there is, I'll keep building in my little safe zone corner.

 

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1 hour ago, Zarcata said:

- I would become a great PvP player again. But as long as that's all the PvP there is, I'll keep building in my little safe zone corner.

 

But what makes pvp great? 

Is it great for everyone? 

 

Lets say there is this guy, he is not as smart as you, his tactics are not has good as yours and because of his consecutive losses, his current ship. Is also much less capable than yours. 

He will keep loosing. 

Is this PVP great for this guy? 

 

In my view a great pvp is when players have a large number of tactics and strategies that can change the balance of the battle and where a loss is not a month worth setback. 

 

Most PVPers defend that there should be only 4 metrics to win the battle:

Numbers

Size

Talents

Meta

 

But none of those has anything to do with tactics or strategy. 

All of those will determine the outcome of the battle before it even starts. 

Like a browser game, the player is just there to enjoy the ride while the battle unfolds. 

 

Then PVPers defend that the pain of loosing a ship should be an insentive to play better next time. 

What joke.

Most ppl dont play games to experience large amounts of frustration and pain. 

And this game needs those players to be viable. 

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As I said, in archeage there were several possibilities, equally very important tactics. You could, for example, defeat strong ships with weaker ships if the opponent was haphazard or made steering errors, so that he drove between two enemy ships, for example. Then he was shot at from two sides.
What was important?
- Character classes
- Group play
- Group class synergies (tank-healer-range-combat-melee-magic-damage)
- Group synergies in terms of buffs and debuffs
- Character equipment
- Equipment of the ships
- Ship selection
- Currents and wind directions of the seas
- Weight of crew and ship's equipment
- Tactics of the individual, the group and the fleet

- ....
 

Even when a solo player or a group lost, the whole thing was fun in itself. You didn't have any fear of loss like in Dual Universe, because you didn't lose your ship completely, it was just destroyed. With a little repair it was then ready for use again.
In Dual Universe, this could be made easier at the point when the automining units come into play and produce so much ore that losing a ship is no longer a catastrophe for anyone. Currently, there are many players who only have one ship, and that was laboriously farmed out over weeks or months.


So one goal could be that we, as a community, completely empty the asteroids together every week so that there is a mass of ores that provide constant access to cheap replacement ships. At the moment, however, many players are chasing after every ship, no matter how small, as if it were pure gold. The asteroids are not even close to being farmed out and there are tons of ores that have not been collected every week.
 

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18 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

So one goal could be that we, as a community, completely empty the asteroids together every week so that there is a mass of ores that provide constant access to cheap replacement ships.

 

Does this pvp and or this "player based civilization" promote a "community"? 

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11 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

 

Does this pvp and or this "player based civilization" promote a "community"? 

You can certainly see that how you want.
If we as a whole community were to completely clear the asteroids every week, this would certainly be a mega event in the game and at the same time generate huge amounts of ores of all levels.

Now you can also say that the PvPers don't get any content this way. But there will always be troublemakers who could then be fought. there will certainly not be a complete event, let's be honest, these are dreams.

In the case of PvP, the loss of one's own ship is currently painful for PvE miners, which is probably why the uproar, since the loss of a large heavy mining ship causes enormous costs. So if we put more ores on the market, we lower the cost of the ships and thus lower the pain of loss. Sure, it will still hurt, but less if I can build 5 ships from the same quanta or just one.

However, no content will be created if we now drive all players away at the beginning of the game through PvP and rob them of everything they own. It is irrelevant why a player flies into the PvP zone. Some players just want to fly and look around the game. Some just want to farm ores.... I would say as a tip for the future of Dual Universe that very aggressive PvP currently scares players and they then disappear from Dual Universe. So give the players time to build up, build a production chain, build cities etc. More players will come into the game and then there will be more PvP. But it is still too early to shoot everything you see.

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18 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

You can certainly see that how you want.

I mean, how would it happen? What community? 

 

Who would be the player(s) that would organize that? 

Who is the leader of an important org or alliance that would say: "you know what? We wont take this opportunity to hunt you or at least increase our advantage over you"? 

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Hey Letthys, I gave you a Blue Heart (Like) for your last posting as this highly entertained me and made me laugh without being able to stop it for 3.5f hours!

But sewriously, both of our: do what you want to do with those who agree. As simple as that. Do not violate others.

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8 hours ago, Hirnsausen said:

Hey Letthys, i gave you a Blue Heart (Like) for your last posting as this highly entertained me and made me laugh without being able to stop it for 3.5f hours!

But sewriously, both of our: do what you want to do with those who agree. As simple as that. Do not violate others.

Believe ne or not, idc. Regardless if it's true

 

Nah, i'll do it with others too. If they're in thé pvp zone it's fair game to attack them

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On 8/23/2021 at 7:06 PM, Eternal said:

 

A "company" is a corporate organization. What does it mean to incorporate? Starting a sole-proprietorship means you register and operate a business under your name or a DBA, which means you are fully liable for it. If you get into a partnership, the general partner is liable. People can get together and consolidate their investments to start a limited liable corporation, that is what a "company" means. An incorporation (Inc.) means a fully liable business has been incorporated, so therefore it is now a corporation with plural shareholders.

 

The problem that I'm trying to bring up here is the issue with shares. A company has many shareholders (investors). It's way too risky to invest in something that has no protection. Incorporating doesn't work! What you call a "share" is a claim! How can I assert that? You can't! Like I said, we got no platform to do that! 

 

To give you the reality, it doesn't work! And here is the game forcing you to incorporate!

 

You will get automatic mining unit in this game, the industry is automatic and all you got to do is feed it with materials, and retailing is automatic -- you can solo this game with those leverage! Who would want to be an employee when everybody in this game has an equity (as they can all mine with their own equipment on their personal and unclaimed tiles) and they receive 150K of ayuda (financial assistance) everyday. Only an idiot would want to be an employee on a condition like this! They all have the ability individually to employ and support themselves, so why would they work for anybody as an employee? Everyone should be an entrepreneur! Why? Because they all have the ability to generate income out of their own resources! If you can do that, you are a successful entrepreneur, which is easy to do for everybody! Do you have to make any ends meet? Nope, that's why income level doesn't matter on a game that has no survival! 

 

As far as equitable system is concerned, none of these things work! You can play in a group inequitably, I won't, and I will play something else with a sense of equity! I ain't playing a game of slave!

 

They failed to factor this game for the individual! I mean look at the basic unit of land in this game? It is 1 Km². That is the size of a financial center! If you just made it 5,000 m² and let them agglomerate into an urbanization with no government, this game would have realistically worked! 1 Km² for each player is too big to agglomerate together (30 tiles in this game in a line is just 30 player properties but 30 Km long. It will take you 40+ minutes to traverse that by foot. That is equivalent to travelling inter-city in real-life for just 30 player properties), which means the org will acquire the 1 km² and everyone will centrally live in it! So we are back here again with shares which does not work!

My single player property is basically a city.  So what you are describing is 30 mediocre players, not 30 awesome tiles that actually make a player community.  

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On 9/17/2021 at 11:00 PM, Draqolas said:

Game was build as PVE game and they added PVP without though as core element.

That's simply not true.  The first trailer for this game mentions "combat" several times and even describes various types of combat that could take place.  This was billed as a "civilization building mmo" and guns were a part of that design from day one.  

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2 hours ago, FerroSC said:

That's simply not true.  The first trailer for this game mentions "combat" several times and even describes various types of combat that could take place.  This was billed as a "civilization building mmo" and guns were a part of that design from day one.  

oh boi.

 

First trailer mentions it you say. That sure makes the game PVP-combat oriented and full of hard core players searching for blood.

Trailer even shows one of the ships firing on another and actually hitting it !!! Moreover, the voxels of the other ship react to the hit and bend !!!

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1 hour ago, XKentX said:

oh boi.

 

First trailer mentions it you say. That sure makes the game PVP-combat oriented and full of hard core players searching for blood.

Trailer even shows one of the ships firing on another and actually hitting it !!! Moreover, the voxels of the other ship react to the hit and bend !!!

Only half implementing systems as they go. Imagine a civ building game where all you do is pvp. Why even play at that point? What is there to play?

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6 minutes ago, Snipey said:

Only half implementing systems as they go. Imagine a civ building game where all you do is pvp. Why even play at that point? What is there to play?

I know a game about civilization building where you PVP from turn one, the game is literally called "civ".

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On 8/11/2021 at 10:58 AM, joaocordeiro said:

I don't understand the relevance of the question.

 

Lets say the answer is: "yes, we the ABC org will fight them"

What will change? Will you, the single player, be allowed to scan an asteroid? Or will "ABC org" kill you on sight too?

 

How do you think "Legion" or "AC" was created?

 

Here is the thing. Balanced war is not profitable for the fighters. It's a huge waste of resources.

So why should any org battle with Legion when they can make an agreement, or even join ranks?

 

Do you get it now? It does not matter who will be the next Alpha org, there won't be any prolonged war. PPl will only fight a quick battle for an overwhelming win, or they will make deals and not have a war at all.

 

Unlike EVE, there are no borders, strategic sectors, stations to make a losing side hide in their bastion.

 

Here all is within reach and war has devastating consequences.

 

Unless the game design changes, this will be the future of DU, forever.

Hail Rome. Pax Romana

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On 9/22/2021 at 6:58 AM, FerroSC said:

My single player property is basically a city.  So what you are describing is 30 mediocre players, not 30 awesome tiles that actually make a player community.  

 

How is it a city or a center if you own everything in it? It's called a private property the size of a center! Urbanization is when people begin to migrate to planned or organic central areas from rural areas in search of economic opportunities. An economy is consolidation and distribution. Ofcourse in order to compete globally using the limited resources a country has, you got to learn how to consolidate. As the economy improve gradually, you can afford to distribute gradually to lower the inequality. It's a trickle down economy, it's unequal, but that is what you need to do to compete with other countries that are consolidating. If a country has 50 people and it can only produce 5 loaves of bread everyday, a capitalist country will distribute the 4 loaves to 4 people so they can eat a loaf everyday and be more competent, and they will use the last loaf for the remaining 46. As economy improve due to competence, you can now produce 10 loaves of bread everyday and let's say the population is still 50, you have more to distribute. A socialist country however will equally distribute: 5 loaves of bread everyday, 50 people, they each get 1/10 of a slice, a crumb! You see, how are you going to compete on a world that is consolidating except you do the same or you offer cheap labor until you are able to transition to a consumer economy?! Vietnam does not have any Alpha-grade city because they are distributing, while Jakarta, KL, Bangkok, and Metro Manila are Alpha-grade cities! Sure, these countries have more inequality, but they are more competent and are newly industrialized! Vietnam's economy is mostly SMEs and you can very much see this from their lack of skyscrapers. When a country is more competent, it has a higher GDP per capita which is what you can afford to distribute. You consolidate your investments to a primary city! 

 

Also, when you construct something, there has to be a surplus of benefit for it. You are building a private property the size of a center, with a capacity of a center, just for yourself and with no economic benefit? It's a white elephant! Give me reasons how your "city" is not a white elephant? This game is full of that! This is after all an aesthetic game and not an economic one! An economy has an engine and apparently there is nothing in this game that drives the economy but aesthetics. It's a game of art, and just like in real-life, it's not sustainable because there is nothing practical about it. 

 

This is a game of aesthetics! Correct me if I'm not! It is a persistent single-shard 3D Deviantart community with an unintuitive but extensive editor. We are basically art collecting here! Economics, in the sense of a game, is driven by in-game progression in which this game has none, and instead this is completely player-driven with aesthetics and non-sensical PVP (a PVP that actually has no progression) as the only essence of the game! 

 

The vibrant cities and vibrant economy you people have been dreaming about is not possible because this game don't have the fundamental design to make that possible! You will continue to dream and I'm just giving you the reality! What "city" and what "economy" are you talking about? A city is about people as well because it's about the activity that take place there! You cannot call something that is privately-owned by an individual or a few a "city" or a "center"! It's an excessive white elephant private property/s!

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