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PvP is too specialised


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The requirements to have a good PvP ship is too large. To even have a chance of fighting, you need an L core with a dozen layers of plating, t3+ engines, radars and weapons, very high level skills and a crew of at least 5.

 

As you could guess, basically nobody bothers with this as it adds so much weight and cost to your ship for all the ammo and plating, and it makes PvP less fun.

if a hauler comes into contact with a PvP ship, there is practically no fighting back, and you just have to hope that you get into the safezone in time. I think it would be far better if ships had at least a chance against PvP crews, in such a way that attaching guns to your ship isn't such a waste of weight.

 

some methods I have come up with to improve this (and pvp in general) are:

  • adding different identification ranges for radars back into the game (xs ships have to be identified closer than L ships, to accommodate for smaller weapons having smaller ranges)
  • decreasing the damage L weapons deal. getting shot down in 1 hit is unfun, even if this means L vs L battles last longer
  • nerfing hit probability, hitting a 6m2 surface area needle from 2su away is too easy
  • adding penetration so that spaced/layered armour isn't as prominent
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4 hours ago, Shaman said:

if a hauler comes into contact with a PvP ship, there is practically no fighting back, and you just have to hope that you get into the safezone in time. I think it would be far better if ships had at least a chance against PvP crews, in such a way that attaching guns to your ship isn't such a waste of weight.

 

 

Just use gold instead of aluminum on your ship 😉 

You can also pay the pirates a commission to prevent them from attacking you.

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1 hour ago, SneakySnake said:

Just use gold instead of aluminum on your ship 😉 

You can also pay the pirates a commission to prevent them from attacking you.

even then, its an expensive (and heavy) precaution most people aren't willing to take.

 

commissions might work, but then again you may come across other pirates who didn't know about it.

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2 hours ago, SneakySnake said:

Just use gold instead of aluminum on your ship 😉 

You can also pay the pirates a commission to prevent them from attacking you.

 

Uhm, that's some sneaky pirate intrigue right there. Exactly what guarantees that 'rats won't attack you after you pay their fee...? Their honor as pirates...? 🤔 🙅‍♂️

 

Combat in DU has a very, very, very long way to go before it makes sense in terms of design, appeal, and performance. I think shields are a good starting point, but also reducing the need to pile 5-6 gunners onto a vessel whose main job is to do nothing...that only makes the lag situation worse, and IMO it isn't an engaging experience. 

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18 hours ago, Shaman said:

The requirements to have a good PvP ship is too large. 

 

No offence, but all topics you making lately, Shaman, feel like sort of twisted, sophisticaled trolling : ) Its like "for kids", hilariously delayed/naive versions of old (and obviously fruitless) discussions whe had over years before, in more serious way, with more people (while they still can be bothered).

 

But keep on. Its in macabre way entertaining : )

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5 hours ago, le_souriceau said:

 

No offence, but all topics you making lately, Shaman, feel like sort of twisted, sophisticaled trolling : ) Its like "for kids", hilariously delayed/naive versions of old (and obviously fruitless) discussions whe had over years before, in more serious way, with more people (while they still can be bothered).

 

But keep on. Its in macabre way entertaining : )

 

im not bothered to check, ok? 😐 

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It is true that the subject has often been broached.

I think if NQ needed us. hum. Well, rather if they will need us when working on it later, they will.

At the moment they seem to be totally busy on other subject.

We are in Beta and they could regularly allow themselves to change values for testing and balancing. 
But the development team seems so small that humanly it does not seem capable to have of a person devoting himself to this kind of subject.

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I ll attack you, at least judge you harshly... but No offence. Besides that Not everyone is an early backer whos Participation fies Back to 500 B.C.. i think it is a Forum meant to discuss Views And ideas on the Game And it seems legit to me to bring Up a topic that might have been discussed a few years ago

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Making ad-clips about ships shooting each other - brings players and is relatively easy.

Making the game that has a meaningful and balanced PVP is hard.

 

Why go the hard way ?

 

"Too specialized" lol. When they were about to nerf xs cores to the ground I told that this is exactly what will happen but "you want to kill my L core freighter on your xs metacube" they said.

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L weapons just have to miss XS cores moving, not rocket cience. Do you have to balance the meta, making all ship sizes have a fuction.

 

L ships win M ships

M ships win S ships

S ships win L ships

 

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On 6/3/2021 at 10:06 PM, Shaman said:

even then, its an expensive (and heavy) precaution most people aren't willing to take.

 

commissions might work, but then again you may come across other pirates who didn't know about it.

best would be to hire a professional defense company such as TNS or others.

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The problem is that there is no balancing or limitation.
 

NQ wants players to be responsible and limit themselves.
 

It's either a terrible joke or I don't know ...

I had a hard time digesting the information when they responded with this "vision" of the balancing in one of the questions asked in AMA.

I really had the impression of having in front of me a financial market economist spinning money at Total while telling myself that the self-regulation of the markets is sufficient by itself and that the planet will avoid heating up climate.
 

But let's stop joking. And so let's be "constructive".
 

The factor that makes PvP seem far too specialized are several things:
- People are all really ultra rich, we all have too many quanta, and resources. People are willing to pay outrageous amounts of quanta for ships.

- The absence of balancing and hard limitation prevents any balancing. Why use anything other than L or XL elements?

Concretely we can make small combat ships S costing less than 2 million. The gameplay could be present with them for fun fight.
 

But :
- Why buy and play cheap ships in PvP when all players have billions in their bank accounts?
- Why make an S ship when there is no place for you in the metagame, face of the disproportionate power of the L?
- Why even make a cheap S ship when you can also make an S ship with several tens of millions of armor voxels and other glitchy elements?

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5 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

PVP too specialized?  Dude. How hard do you think it is to make a gold cube and stack guns on every face?


It is good form to read the entire subject before commenting ;)

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10 minutes ago, Knight-Sevy said:


It is good form to read the entire subject before commenting ;)

Yeah I did.  I have probably read more and for longer than you. 

 

But the topic is going nowhere and will amount to nothing. Just like the other 1000 topics on this forum.
 

Show me a topic where an actual dev or game/level designer responds and that’s where I’ll make pertinent comments. 

The fact is if you want to PvP you need to be in a gold cube. 
 

if not. You lose. 
 

why bother trying to write posts and design mechanics that nobody on NQ is even aware of?  
 

why bother theoryctafting when it will be ignored with all the power a disinterested party can muster?


if you are in a freighter in PvP and get pounced by cubes, you’re dead. 
 

you need to have equally solid cube backup to protect your freighter. 
 

cube vs cube. 
 

the game will always sort the meta. Currently it’s l cubes. 
 

so it’s l cube vs l cube. 
 

it’s very very hard to make a Paper Scissors Stone PvP game and NQ have proven that they are not up to the task. 

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8 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

Yeah I did.  I have probably read more and for longer than you. 

 

But the topic is going nowhere and will amount to nothing. Just like the other 1000 topics on this forum.
 

Show me a topic where an actual dev or game/level designer responds and that’s where I’ll make pertinent comments. 

The fact is if you want to PvP you need to be in a gold cube. 
 

if not. You lose. 
 

why bother trying to write posts and design mechanics that nobody on NQ is even aware of?  
 

why bother theoryctafting when it will be ignored with all the power a disinterested party can muster?

 


 

And here is a personal attack.
I guess that's how you behave when you admit you're wrong.
 

But the point is, no one said it was too complicated to make a PvP ship. This is not the real subject of this topic.
 

We only craft ships in iron armor and we haven't lost a fight against BOO or another incompetent adversary of the same style who thinks their golden ship is everything.

But from what you're talking about, it looks like you haven't mastered PvP at all here.

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6 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:


 

And here is a personal attack.
I guess that's how you behave when you admit you're wrong.

 

Personal attack?

I'm crying here.

If you say so, mate. 🤷‍♂️

 

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On 6/12/2021 at 4:11 AM, Knight-Sevy said:

- People are all really ultra rich, we all have too many quanta, and resources. People are willing to pay outrageous amounts of quanta for ships

Some people are really rich.

 

i have about five million quanta to my name. There are lots of schematics I’d like to have for my factory, there are a few ships I’d like as I only have two haulers.

 

Also there aren’t many, but there are new players still entering the game. Follow the help channel, there are people asking should they leave Sanctuary. There are players needing help with their speeder.

 

We’re not all rich.

 

I’d never go into PvP space, I don’t have the budget .

I always warp as I couldn’t afford the loss, and it would be a loss, I wouldn’t stand a chance if a PvP player found me.

 

So yes, PvP is to specialised, it is an area which only the rich can afford to enter. How do you expect new players to start PvP if they have such a high entry cost?

 

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1 hour ago, CoyoteNZ said:

Some people are really rich.

 

i have about five million quanta to my name. There are lots of schematics I’d like to have for my factory, there are a few ships I’d like as I only have two haulers.

 

Also there aren’t many, but there are new players still entering the game. Follow the help channel, there are people asking should they leave Sanctuary. There are players needing help with their speeder.

 

We’re not all rich.

 

I’d never go into PvP space, I don’t have the budget .

I always warp as I couldn’t afford the loss, and it would be a loss, I wouldn’t stand a chance if a PvP player found me.

 

So yes, PvP is to specialised, it is an area which only the rich can afford to enter. How do you expect new players to start PvP if they have such a high entry cost?

 


 

Yes there here are the problem.
Currently there is an arms race because the people who are still in the game and who PvP are among the most active in the game.
 

Ships with indecent amounts of elements and voxels are released in PvP fleets every day.
 

Solo or multi-crew ships have several tens of millions of quanta (see hundreds if you take market prices).
 

So yes it takes an investment to enter PvP. And there is nothing to gain from it.
 

A player who wants to go out cannot even afford a small ship, as the ship design does not suffer from any limitations.
For something low cost you will just get annihilated, obliterate, disintegrate, choose the adjective that suits you best ...
 

In a balanced game, you could buy 2 or 3 small S combat ships with your 5 million (a ship with a series of S and M elements and at least a thousand voxels of fuel and ammunition armor included).
 

Except the game is broken, do you want to get out?
- You would need all the items in size L or XL, and at least 30 times larger.
 

Welcome to Dual Universe Unlimited building ship with no sense of balancing.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/4/2021 at 5:59 AM, Bollox said:

du itself is too specialized, nothing in it attracts the player numbers needed to be a self sustaining let alone successful title.

 


I would normally disagree with you - niche in the market and all that - but I can't really say much since I want to play DU like I have for years, but I'm prevented from doing so after they've updated their launcher deliberately removing compatibility. Game itself works perfectly, I just can't launch / update it any more.

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  • 2 weeks later...

PVP in this game is not about "ship building" etc.

If you know "the meta" you are almost invincible. If you don't, you are a loot pinata and no amount of quanta will help you.

It goes like this in many sandbox games. Those who do PVP since the start learn the meta in "easy mode" as the rest are learning with them.

If you join later, you have to learn while the rest are already very knowledgable and you usually get pwned.

Having 0 balance and counters in DU just makes it even worse.

 

Join an org, see how it's done, leave, do it on your own if it's something you like.

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PvP is still a placeholder, it needs shields and energy MINIMUM before you can even really discuss balance or gameplay. Shields on there own could break the 'borg' meta. For now you have to put up with it how it is.  The 'easy mode' they are all learning, will not be relevant.

For the record I lost a pretty stacked M core hauler yesterday to pirates whilst running missions to Sicari, was actually really exciting.  The pirates were pretty cool, arranged with them to buy the packages off them and they rebuilt my ship so I could go and BP it (as I had done a load of interior work and forgot to update it).

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The old idea (a JC idea mind you) of using surrogate for sort of virtual PvP gunners could help here. It could also hurt depending on how you look at it. 

 

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6 hours ago, Endstar said:

The old idea (a JC idea mind you) of using surrogate for sort of virtual PvP gunners could help here. It could also hurt depending on how you look at it. 

 

It would mean a lot of u der staffed, overgunned ships would be out patrolling calling in gun crew as soon as something was found.

 

what I’d like is to be able to run factories and stuff while in VR so I could do something during those long trips. That may get even more ships out into space. What would be fantastic would be since your ship is still moving, Bri g able to access your ships HUD while VRed away. 

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