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MARKET OVERLOAD - Two Solutions


Hirnsausen
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Hi community,

you all know the problems with the market areas spammed by too much and never enough player-owned structures for advertizing and selling.
I worked out two solutions and want to share them with you all, even more after I just had the stunning experience of having a communication with one of those hat place their structures on the landing platforms of the markets, for selling and advertizing.

I am pasting here that posting of mine to him, that also contains the two solutions. You need to know, that he complained to the NQs on Discord, because someone else dared to block him on the platform with a structure. ?

 

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@Cytroxian
Greetings, I hope you're fine. I am not an NQ, but I want to give you a feedback. I hope you don't mind, while waiting for NQ response. Like thousands of other players, each time I unfortunately have to make my way to any of the markets on Alioth, I know I will crash my ship. And that is, because when closing in to the markets, there is so much data transfer that I get all sorts of error messages, often even the entire game crashes. And what is causing that? All these permanently based player-owned structures that are covering much of any markets landing platform space. Even in the few cases I do not crash, I still cannot land. Not enough space. When landed, I get UNHANDLED EXCEPTION error windows, NETWORK ERROR screens, SCRIPT OVERLOAD messages, and DATABASE SIZE EXCEEDED messages. Cannot even start my ship without risk of crashing due to errors or game shutdown. Yes, it is a good thing that players can sell items or services. But at the moment, NQ and even many of us players are trying to find solutions to free the markets of all those permanently placed structures, without prohibiting sales. I am actively communicating my suggestions with the NQs and are in exchange with them.
These are my own suggestions:
- markets offer (for a small fee) delivery by drone if player has enough space in container or inventory otherwise it returns and player has to order another delivery
- any parked structure will be automatically BPed then deleted after 15 minutes to remove all data and script problems, and when player wants to leave structure is being restored


And I also suggest, for these two suggestions above, to create a huge ring-shaped market platform around the Colonizing Ship Monument, that is where all players can conduct their own sales and advertizing.

 
A third solution would be this:
- any player-owned structure gets after 15 minutes a marker, and there is a Settings option for every player to allow loading of "Marked Structures" or not. This way, players that encounter problems, can switch off totally the loading of those player-owned ad and sell structures (including associated scripts and images) if they experience problems. Those structures are now just some rectangular outline. They can fly through them, but they cannot park touching  them.
 

@Cytroxian In regards to your problem, I have a little smile because now you get at least a fraction of the problem ("cannot do", "I am being blocked") that you self and others like you cause to us other players. Not intentionally, we know that, but still a big pain. The ABP that is blocking your advertizing structure is also the abbreviation of "AdBlick Plus", a plugin for many web browsers to get rid of too much advertising (harassive ad spamming) on websites, did you know that? Check it out, it is even the same shape of their logo.

 

 

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Dear community, your feedback and support is welcome! ?

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I have to agree, landing pad is there for landing, not for placing static constructs like shops or adverts. I have seen some decently figured out alternatives of these shops done as an extension to the sides of landing pad, which, imho, is decent solution I can live with. As long as there is one direction (north/south etc.) left unobstructed for ships not able of VTOL or less experienced pilots, shops extending on the sides should be acceptable.


Having high container range I just park my ship 2km away and vertically land, being too lazy to stumble over various collision boxes, but fresh pilots won't have that advantage. In the end this landing pad scrapyard is very limiting for new players experience and as such should be abolished.


LUAs throwing overload exceptions on market hexes should be automatically reported and compacted out at certain exception count. Leaving them there is both useless and stupid. Arguably I'd also prefer no datacube writes allowed.

 

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Frankly, player stalls and/or stationary constructs in general should not be allowed to be be placed  on the district market _landing pads_ at all .. 

 

NQ has been given suggestions on how they can actually resolve this, several times from several people such as THIS one and frankly without too much effort required. Needless to say, they have ignored any and all such suggestions for many months now.. 

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as it may happen that people have a dc or whatever, becauser there is really no need to do a monetary punishment, and because there is an issue when the craft belongs to the org, why even involve a fee?


If you leave the zone without the craft or 30 minutes pass you get a popup and can either pay to extend time or not.

After an hour (unless you extend time) the craft is despawned and you can pick up a magic blueprint for it, no cost involved (so no issues for DC or other unplanned things).

The magic blueprint contains the whole ship, with cargo, but weighs twice as much as the ship did, to avoid abuse. So you can’t just use this to easily transport things. It is lost on death and can be gotten at market again until used (otherwise people can teleport with it), that should be abuse proof and yet not impact anybody who didnt intend to leave his craft on the market, like people who got a dc or left the stove on. It is the equivalent of youtube asking "are you still there?"

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35 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

Frankly, player stalls and/or stationary constructs in general should not be allowed to be be placed  on the district market _landing pads_ at all .. 

 

NQ has been given suggestions on how they can actually resolve this, several times from several people such as THIS one and frankly without too much effort required. Needless to say, they have ignored any and all such suggestions for many months now.. 

Well, if the problem is the lag caused by the amount of constructs parked there then creating more space doesn't really solve the issue.

A simple bank could help getting rid of all the stacks of containers laying around maybe.

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4 hours ago, Hirnsausen said:

Dear community, your feedback and support is welcome! ?

The solution to this problem already exists in most games. 

Virtual garage. 

The player approaches a marking in the ground, exits its ship, looks at a interface and select "store the last construct you piloted". 

If the ship is near the center of the marking and if the player has "store in garage" permission, the ship will disappear from game. 

 

For ppl crying that they need to "see" the ships that are present in any market, there could be a public listing of all ships on that garage. 

 

After this is implemented, NQ could add the following:

Automatic storing for ships that idle more then X hours. 

Storing fee. Removing quanta from player's money. 

When money runs out, ship is spawned on a remote ship graveyard, without a owner. 

 

PS: EVE uses this players need to park their ships upon arriving on a station. 

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Also, please stop suggesting mechanisms aimed at punishing players for leaving their ships at the market. 

 

Players have a life, they have to go to work and deal with family issues. 

Players have not designed this system that spawns then in a market and gives them a quest to spawn a ship at the market. 

Players did alert NQ, for years, about this. The response was always the same: "this is a technological issue that will be solved in the future"

Players have been suggesting alternatives like the one i just suggested for years. Little to no reply was given. 

Players did not create the current territory claim mechanism that basicaly says that your ship is only safe in your territory or in a market. Every where else, the territory can be claimed and bad stuff can happen to it. 

 

NQ always saw the existance of 10000 ships in one single market as an objective they wanted to fulfill and always said how that would make DU a great game. 

NQ had warnings about this and they addressed this issue in many pre beta youtube videos. 

NQ had real data: crash reports, performance degrading reports, mathematical models, explaining to them that this was a permanent issue if they continued with their flawed "vision". 

 

NQ needs to fix this problem with a mechanism that does not punish players for the mistakes that NQ made. 

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Quote

- markets offer (for a small fee) delivery by drone if player has enough space in container or inventory otherwise it returns and player has to order another delivery

This would preclude market delivery missions for players. Such missions would considerably enhance game-play, so i say let's not do this.

 

Quote

- any parked structure will be automatically BPed then deleted after 15 minutes to remove all data and script problems, and when player wants to leave structure is being restored

I like this. It's better (or at least less likely to piss players off) than my solution of change the RDMS to all players/all access after an hour - let us salvage them lol.

 

I was at D6 yesterday and I couldn't find the ramp up to the platform. That's how cluttered it is UNDER the platform. Once I did find it, the path from the top of the ramp to the entrance was almost completely blocked and some a-hole was maneuvering what looked like a wall that he seemed intent on using to finish the job of blocking the entrance.

 

NQ really need to get out the ban hammer and get rid of some of these so called players.

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6 hours ago, Hirnsausen said:

- any parked structure will be automatically BPed then deleted after 15 minutes to remove all data and script problems, and when player wants to leave structure is being restored

 

This has been suggested  a bazillion times by many here.. I think a 15 minute timer too short but otherwise I'd say impound and allow to recover for a fee after say 24 hours of the construct being in the same spot and not moved on a parket pad..

 

 

6 hours ago, Hirnsausen said:
 a plugin for many web browsers to get rid of too much advertising (harassive ad spamming) on websites, did you know that? Check it out, it is even the same shape of their logo.

Of course he knows..

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1 hour ago, joaocordeiro said:

Players have a life, they have to go to work and deal with family issues. 

This is why there should be no fine or anything like it. If you left the stove on and come back after two hours, there should be little effort and no punishment to just continue with the game.

 

See my suggestion above.

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7 minutes ago, Gottchar said:

This is why there should be no fine or anything like it. If you left the stove on and come back after two hours, there should be little effort and no punishment to just continue with the game.

 

See my suggestion above.

The part that you quoted does not stand alone. It is a part of several lines that make a point. Try commenting on the full point instead.

PS: Turning down your stove does not take you 15 minutes to get to the sanctuary moon from Alioth.

PS2: Or the 2 hours to get fuel if you don't have it.

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The only solution is player run markets from their own tiles connected to the market system that draw people away from the markets and restricting all the crap people put there at the markets. Until that happens nothing else will fix anything really. But if NQ actually does give us our own personal markets then we can talk about restrictions, fees, and limits.

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Warlander said:

The only solution is player run markets

Definitely don't agree on the "only"
Op gave us an acceptable solution.

I gave another.

 

Your solution is utopian. A powerful org can still park all their assets in a player market. Then what? Is the market owner going to declare war and face oblivion because of something NQ failed to fix?
What ever mechanism NQ finds to fix this for NPC markets, needs to be available for player markets.

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There are several issues here.

 

1. Unwanted construct cluttering, degrading the game experience for everyone. Long term this will not only be a problem for markets, but also for any community driven gathering points.

 

2. NQ not reacting to this long standing issue in any meaningful way. Despite there being several solutions suggested that would be relatively easy to implement, and would not only fix the market problem, but also unwanted cluttering in general.

 

3. Underlying game performance issues. Just as the market clutter makes the game unplayable for many, is also means that any large community gathering of constructs (for valid reasons) will face the same issues. From a technical perspective the markets are just a smaller version of the lag city test in alpha, and the problem still remains unsolved.

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Variations of the very idea have been floating around literraly since first DU playtests started in earnest, but all these were met with silence on NQ's part. 

 

By the hot mess permission system is in right now, combined with how constructs work in DU, it's simply not possible.

 

The concept itself is fairly straightforward, Second Life, which came out in 2003, with similar scope on technological side, has had this implemented along with very robust ( yet simple to control) permission system, group policies for landblocks, static/dynamic constructs,scripts,  automatic returns, controlled spawns along with very powerful scripting backend from get go.  To be fair, they have had their share of mishaps along the way ?  but its systems were designed with this in mind from ground up. 

 

Problem we have here DU apparently wasn't designed with this in mind..

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On 2/7/2021 at 11:55 AM, joaocordeiro said:

Definitely don't agree on the "only"
Op gave us an acceptable solution.

I gave another.

 

Your solution is utopian. A powerful org can still park all their assets in a player market. Then what? Is the market owner going to declare war and face oblivion because of something NQ failed to fix?
What ever mechanism NQ finds to fix this for NPC markets, needs to be available for player markets.

I just say that the only solution is Player run markets because NQ is completely unwilling to really police markets in any real capacity and their constant catering to megaorgs and all the walking cube cores along with scripts havesting data and all the advertisements and general crap stacks and the used car lot its becoming at launch is going to make markets unuseable after launch. At least if players can maneuver tool ships off their land I could at least drop their ships off the side of my platform. When TWs happen a player cluttered market it likely the least of my worries.

 

There are many different solutions I have offered besides player markets but I dont see NQ ever doing anything meaningful about it so I see it as moot or they would have done something about it. Honestly I think they like it this way as it makes people crash or lag out in the districts at least to slow us down somewhat. Sure sometimes they pack stuff up but its always still the same ships I see constantly there so if they havent coded some kind of parking/storage fee by now again im doubtful they ever will. Or giving players the ability to rent lockers instead of having hundreds of storage containers everywhere, running hundreds of scripts, advertising, brining vending machines, just building random half build things or the shady used car lot its become.

 

None of that needs to be there and its because there is litterally no reason to visit anywhere but the market.

 

And it begins with setting hard limits to what can be there without charging large sums of money for parking, storage, advertising, ship for sale, scripts running, and all that which should be at a premium and built into or around the districts including a hard finite cap of how much can be posted to actually get the markets to move and pushing people to spread out into player run markets to fill that gap and decentralize the markets by allowing at least to use the market stallst and requiring an actual warehouse to store all market items in the system elsewhere players cant use or steal from the containers with unlimited links to a hub to increase a real volume of goods that can be posted.

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45 minutes ago, Warlander said:

None of that needs to be there and its because there is litterally no reason to visit anywhere but the market.

This is a very optimistic view.

 

Ppl will use any landmark to meet up. 

And lag will definitely be used as a diplomatic tool and as a viable combat tactic.

 

We have seen in January what happened on eve, with a server crashing as a giant fleet was attacking a vital system, causing a major flip in the odds of wining that battle and even the war. 

 

Server lag, client crashing, ddos will be used in the future.

 

We need mechanisms that work when players miss behave. Not mechanisms vulnerable to player decisions. 

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Why not take the problem backwards, NQ does not take action because it does not seem necessary to them.

Let's all bring an L core ship that we will leave parked as close to the market as possible. (an M core for the less wealthy among us).

This should make things happen.

Personally I only use one market and it is not very crowded (and I don't have any lag / crash concerns).
But if this gets in my way, I will also come and park the most big ships in my possession so that everyone can enjoy them.

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5 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:

Why not take the problem backwards, NQ does not take action because it does not seem necessary to them.

Let's all bring an L core ship that we will leave parked as close to the market as possible. (an M core for the less wealthy among us).

This should make things happen.

Personally I only use one market and it is not very crowded (and I don't have any lag / crash concerns).
But if this gets in my way, I will also come and park the most big ships in my possession so that everyone can enjoy them.

Amateur! If you really have to do it at least do it the right way! Thousands of xs cores (just a core and a shell) so that they have to manually delete them one by one.

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A third solution would be this:
- any player-owned structure gets after 15 minutes a marker, and there is a Settings option for every player to allow loading of "Marked Structures" or not. This way, players that encounter problems, can switch off totally the loading of those player-owned ad and sell structures (including associated scripts and images) if they experience problems. Those structures are now just some rectangular outline. They can fly through them, but they cannot park touching  them.

 

This way, there is no need to remove player-pwned ad and sell structures form the markets and those sellers cannot complain. It is just that their structures might not be seen anymore by the majority of players. But that is then the decision of players and not of NQ.

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