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11 minutes ago, Alpinesun said:

Extremely unlikely as cost drives consumption and not the other way around. It's also generally undesirable, especially as a new player as the cost of the base items dictates the price of the finished and everything in the supply of that item thus a false inflation and overstatement of value.

This is what will happen. This is how the game injected quantas into the economy when the beta started. This is how it works on any mmo game. Money is just a number that has some value calculated in effort time. It does not really matter what that number is, only the required effort to build a product counts. Yes if you change the said price on the bots it causes an inflation and changes the value of the currency, but that has nothing to do with the market not moving. If you want my advice dont keep quantas in this game.

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11 minutes ago, Rimezx said:

This is what will happen. This is how the game injected quantas into the economy when the beta started. This is how it works on any mmo game. Money is just a number that has some value calculated in effort time. It does not really matter what that number is, only the required effort to build a product counts. Yes if you change the said price on the bots it causes an inflation and changes the value of the currency, but that has nothing to do with the market not moving.

Until someone under cuts the market and floods it with lower cost items at high volume, thus market change activity, thus invoking equilibrium. This will only happen in a free market. Parties require the resource that the other has and hence a considerable incentive to engage in an exchange and thus kick starting the market and equilibrium within it and generating a market clearing price. The act of 'price discovery' is required to make that happen and will take time to occur and needs a free market format for it to occur. Price fixing is not allowing the market clearing to occur and thus the underlying problem with the industry and the knee-jerk reaction patch that was 0.23.

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1 minute ago, Emptiness said:

Org creation and territory claim costs disagree with that 'advice'.

You just liquidate enough to do whatever you need to do but you keep your capital in something other than money. Welp it benefits me if you don't do it anyway.

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8 hours ago, Distinct Mint said:

If people have nothing constructive to say, then please don't bother.

If that were a case then this thread would never have occurred and no changes to the god awful clusterf**k of 0.23, anyhow, onto my Rant.

 

Markets - Lagfest Central and annoying to get to

My take on the whole market situation is that, that's a 25 to 40km trip (depending on where you are) in a starter speeder for a new player, then have to do it again because you forgot something, then do it again as you need xxx - oops cant carry it all, that's another 2 or 3 trips - oh wait - uninstall, what's the point, I'v been on for 2h and all i'm doing is running back and forth to a bloody market.

If you want to make the markets more viable then simply drop in a shedload of bot sellers of 'Personal Market Terminals, make them cheap, hell give one away in the Tutorial!!' so you can have one in your base, sure lock it down to 'lower quality, say T1 or T2 materials' AND only allow it to pull up listings of what's on your current planet for instant delivery or put the delivery on a timer (least you can mine rocks when waiting on the delivery), if you want XYZ T5 item, off you go to that planet to get it.

 

That's going to start people shuttling kit between planets in a form of trade, still with the risk someone else does the same but that's business

 

Ship Damage and Repairs

 

Repairs with just scrap though, really is silly, running up to your 300m long ship that's a smoking wreck with a backpack full of Gold and Poof!! it's good to go again, absurd.

How about allowing scrap to facilitate the repair of a component that's not totally destroyed only, any destroyed items have to be 'replaced' with either the finished item or necessary components or pure ores in your backpack, make it a sliding scale in terms of speed, quick for a full item down to a slowwwww for pure ores with a modifier on the scrap used to 'weld it all back together'.

Cores outside PvP however should at worst be reduced to 50% so a repair can always be carried out rather than a replacement.

 

Economics


I'm new, but even in the 6 short weeks I played prior to un-installing on 0.23 day I found the imbalance between the Rich and the not rich.

 

You have to realise that not everyone wants to play a game according to your 'Vision' of what it's meant to be, never going to happen and if you want a successful game you have to live with that and also enable it.

 

Big Orgs  are essentially run by Rich people, they have the funds to get out of just about any slowdown you throw at them due to the fact they have the ready cash to go buy anything they need in order to get round it, will always happen, it's a force of nature.

 

The not rich will get kicked in the knackers with a well pointed steel toecap and hobble off to work out some way of getting funds to get funds together all the while trying to ignore the surface rocks that will take them weeks or months to collect but in the end will probably join a big Org just to get by.

 

The main source of income is Ore, dug out of the ground by the unwashed masses who were (maybe still are now, who knows) able to carry out all stages of processing to get off planet and start to explore the system 99% of which have just one goal - go mine stuff on another planet to either sell to buy stuff to make a better ship/base or to use to build a better ship base and sell the excess to buy the tiers they can't mine.

 

Mining

 

All the economy is focussed on buying selling ore (whether its raw, pure, components or a finished product) to make money, and even then it's already massivley imbalanced between Rich and not rich, now you want to increase that divide tenfold.

 

Why is that, you say? - Automiiners

 

For the love of god no!

 

The Rich will have autominers down all over the place, and the not rich, will have more and more ore not being bought by the Rich, prices will fall and the divide will increase.

Manual mining is, in every game, usually a pig (might be dressed up in spangly stuff to start with but in the end it always becomes a pig), if business wants to build stuff and get Rich(er), good on them but please don't penalise every non blob Org member or soloer or small group just to keep the Rich Rich.

 

PvP

 

I'm a carebear, I had already consigned my access to 70% of the play area to 'Will never be seen' because it's in a PvP area and I CBA to deal with that any more, had my days of clubbing baby seals and in other games being the baby seal, just does nothing for me any more.

No real constructive comments on PvP as I don't have any idea of the physics involved in game - target leading, relative speeds of closure, abrupt braking/'acceleration, vector thrusting in a 3D environment, weapon lag/delay - light based instantaneous? solid slugs being unguided projectiles, vector thrusting of missiles, dumb or smart? Way too much like maths class for me trying to work out a potential hitbox and shooting at that waiting to see if the other player flies into it or not - or is it just 'Target, lock, press fire and roll RNG for result'? How long to weapons fire projectiles continue to travel, do they time out or carry on forever till a planet's gravity well pulls them down or till they plough through some poor unsuspecting ship a million miles away 3 weeks later?


I appreciate that the Devs are responding to the huge error in judgement of releasing 0.23 but for me anyway, iit's not enough yet for me to consider re-installing or re-subbing, if an error of this magnitude is made once, chances are that it's going to be repeated and 6 weeks is not a lot to lose, 6 months would leave more than a bad taste.

Good luck in finding a happy medium between your view on how people should play your product and how people want to play with your product (an angled vibrating back massager can be used on a sore shoulder as per the manufacturer's design but they can also be used elsewhere, most definitely not to the manufacturers design) but hey, once you pay for something, it's down to you on how to use it' - just my two pence worth.

 

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I liked the original changes, though I agree with the general consensus that they were badly rolled out, and it seems that NQ did not fully think though their consequences (eg on the ore price, and the knock-on effects for new players).

 

What frustrates me now is that I got fully on board the new direction, and sunk pretty much all of my money into buying up stock of some scarce elements. Not, I should note, schematics (I bought some of them too), but actual stock.

 

I was playing the market and thought I was doing the thing NQ wanted us to do. The changes caused a big spike in prices, and it would have taken a while for production to ramp up on various complicated items, so I bought up some of them whilst my competitors were still snoozing.

 

This was a gamble, of course, but probably a valid long term strategy given everything that NQ (and particularly JC) had stated in the discussion surrounding 0.23.

 

Now I find myself with a lot of stock where the prices are probably about to plummet. Not because the market has recovered, or for any other in-game reason, but because the goal posts have been arbitrarily moved again.

 

I cannot see that I am going to be compensated in any way for this. I might get a bit of cash back for a few schematics, but that's a drop in the ocean compared to the stock I hold.

 

I'd also like to point out that I also re-sold some schematics on the market, and bought and shipped some schematics for other people. In both cases the people who ultimately ended up with them are unlikely to see the compensation.

 

I can live with all of this. It's frustrating, but the game is in beta and I'm fine with anything that happens which ultimately leads to a better game.

 

I do think though that NQ need to take a long hard look at how deeply they are thinking through the consequences of their changes. Improved testing via a public server will help, but with most of what's gone wrong in 0.23 feels to me to have been quite easy to have predicted.

 

The fact that it wasn't is quite concerning.

 

Similarly, the knock on effects of what feels like a bit of a knee-jerk backtracking now also don't seem to have been thought through.

 

I'd like to see some clearer thinking, better communication, and some better change management.

 

For example, the schematic prices could have been introduced slowly, with the figure being reduced a bit each day. The schematic changes that 0.23 introduced could have been brought in for T5 items only at first, then slowly rolled backwards down the tiers. The talent point reset should have been thought about before 0.23, could have been made optional, and could have been applied only to the affected talents.

 

And so on...

 

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17 hours ago, twistedjonny said:

You're not speaking for everyone here. I don't want to produce everything so I can play it as basically a single player sandbox. You shouldn't be able to just produce everything extremely easily. You should have to interact with the markets and other players, just like the real world as far as production goes. That is NQs vision for THEIR game. Right now, the people playing the solo type game style are not playing it how they want the game to be played. I agree 100% with how they said most would get bored after a few months of just being able to produce everything in the game. That is "end game" and there is no real meaning past it. You don't have to work for anything. Unless all you want to do is build ships and constructs, then sure, that's cool for you, but that's not everyone in the game. I love the market side of things and want to see it play a larger role.

I second your post.  I'm not with the negative crowd either.  I see what they're trying to accomplish and I agree with it in theory.  It just needs a few tweaks, but that's why we're in beta!

 

I see the biggest danger to the live economy is bots buying ore. I hope this is just a beta thing.  I don't think you'll have a thriving economy with bots buying anything.

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In most businesses when customer give feedback on a product it can always get ugly as well as complimentary . Now when the product isn't even finished it certainly isn't going to go well. Don't ask a question if you don't want to hear the answer.  
I think NQ want to build a product that people want to play and as a small company learning, clearly sometimes they will get it wrong and sometimes get it right. I think that once people start paying subscriptions or lost their perceived investment of time ,NQ started to lose peoples will to forgive and support. Expectations are set and money paid , time invested and then it changes to something you either don't like or don't want.

Pre-alpha worked because there was a trade off - for game time and sandbox play for feedback and testing and in the main it was all in a good positive direction .  We went through patches that had  major changes and  new features good and bad .

What changed is subscriptions players and more focused less sandbox gameplay.  Experiencing those changes for the first time when your paying a subscription( or investing time) to a beta product can be frustrating to say the least. 

Overall i have seen improvements in NQ as they grow , still some frustrations with some design and features and first time quality delivery.

So i have to think that NQ need to take it on the chin and look closely when the community responds with whatever tone  , even look at some of the basic design aspects and ask if that original idea is still valid or being upheld. Remember we are customers and you need to deliver on your promise.
So merry Christmas all .

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3 minutes ago, Mucus said:

In most businesses when customer give feedback on a product it can always get ugly as well as complimentary . Now when the product isn't even finished it certainly isn't going to go well. Don't ask a question if you don't want to hear the answer.   I think NQ want to build a product that people want to play and as a small company learning clearly sometimes they will get it wrong and sometimes get it right. I think that once people start paying subscriptions NQ started to lose peoples will to forgive and support. Expectations are set and money paid and then it changes to something you don't lile

The biggest issue is not the subscription cost. It was said there will not be a wipe in this beta so people invested time and effort in the game, treating it as a release. The amount of effort many people put into this game far outweights the subscription cost. People felt like all of their effort had been wasted. This is why the backlash is so intense.

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6 minutes ago, Mucus said:

Expectations are set and money paid and then it changes to something you don't like

If its free and ya don't 'like' it - you can say... "Well it was free....."

If someone 'gave' me a car and I drove it for the summer and it died - that car didn't owe me anything. 

If I BOUGHT a car and spent US$20,000 dollars on it and it broke down after a summer of driving... I'd be more inclined to be upset about it.  

 

Its not really about the money though - people have been putting a LOT of time into this game as players - You can't give someone something fantastic and then suddenly change it up so dramatically and expect them to 'happy' about it.  The fact that they 'paid' for it is just the frosting on the cake.  Had some of these changes come in more gradually or been tested (and when I say tested for gods sake NQ - PLAY YOUR OWN DAMNED GAME SO YOU UNDERSTAND HOW PLAYERS WILL FEEL - you're all too disconnected from what PLAYERS experience!)  Stop looking at things as formulae or algorithms.   You can't 'math' up a solution nor should you.  GET INSIDE the players heads - experience what they do.  THEN you'll understand.  

 

The BEST games I've ever played are those where the Devs ACTUALLY PLAYED.  They had to constrain themselves (No God Powers) while doing it to fully understand.  And when they did, the discoveries they made drove them to create an awesome player experience. 

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After seeing the big patch, I was excited first, but now I'm still dissapointed. My most urgent topic the schematics, is still there. In the end you just halfed the prices. So I critzize that you now need 1. resources, 2. the industries 3. the sematics. My base is far away from civilzation, if I have resources and industrie, I still have to get to the next market to buy the schematics I need. So I'm more on the travel to get schemtaitcs and resources, than I can spent my time usefully on building bases or ships. Next, you need the money to buy the schematics, so how can I earn money? Still the scheamtics are placed at the wrong time, we need more possiblity to make money and more comfort to get schematics. But this just my simple opinion.


I'm one of these solo / small players guys, so I make progress slow, thats ok for me. But at the moment I don't see any future for me in this game. The game develops straight in the direction, as it is supposed to be, with big alliances, socities and so on. I hoped to find a place in this universe as a solo / small group player. But it seems impossible to have any progress without help, now.


Everything is fine, I'm not angry or so, I'm just dissapointed that players as me are totally out of scope.

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18 hours ago, Celestis said:

One month isn't nearly enough. I've been playing about 3 months and have only just managed to make enough stuff to build my first ship to learn how to fly. Depends how many hours per day you have available for this game. I don't think element destruction should happen in crashes. At least, not in the "Safe Zone".

 

I also agree with these posts. We play this game because it is a simulation, and it is what we might like to be able to do. In real life, we are still flying B52s designed in the 50s and intend to still fly them into 2050. The longevity of parts should be based on flight time for atmospheric (i.e., thousand hours) and SUs (i.e., hundreds of thousands) for Space. Yes, we may need to throw in a burner here or screws there to fix it, but three lives are crazy short. However, I do not agree with PVP only destruction. Maybe combat would decrease the hours due to combat like a multiple.  

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29 minutes ago, Rimezx said:

The biggest issue is not the subscription cost. It was said there will not be a wipe in this beta so people invested time and effort in the game, treating it as a release. The amount of effort many people put into this game far outweights the subscription cost. People felt like all of their effort had been wasted. This is why the backlash is so intense.

Let me tell you my story: I played MMOs since I was 18 (35 now), the one I played the most is ofc WoW, can u imagine how many hours I spent on that game, I bet u can.

That said, every expansion is basically a wipe, it doesn't matter how many hours/days/weeks you spent on that latest raid, all of you effort goes down the toilet. 

I never heard once a complaint about that.

Why? Because they know how to drive player to the next scenario.

Here, as I already wrote on Reddit, is a thousand times easier than with an rpg, you have the whole real life universe to look for inspirations.

"Hello Noveans, our sun is about to go supernova, we need to leave asap, board the arc (or whatever that ship's name is), you can only carry what fits in your nanopack"

You could make and event to tease it by making the sun slowly became a red giant.

Boom, expansion sold, brand new system, fresh start for everyone.

 

This could be the transition from beta to release for example. And it's just one among many ideas you could use, black holes, meteors, etc etc.

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15 minutes ago, Bazzle said:

I also agree with these posts. We play this game because it is a simulation, and it is what we might like to be able to do. In real life, we are still flying B52s designed in the 50s and intend to still fly them into 2050. The longevity of parts should be based on flight time for atmospheric (i.e., thousand hours) and SUs (i.e., hundreds of thousands) for Space. Yes, we may need to throw in a burner here or screws there to fix it, but three lives are crazy short. However, I do not agree with PVP only destruction. Maybe combat would decrease the hours due to combat like a multiple.  

If that B52 flies into a mountainside at 1000km/h, it's going to be catastrophically destroyed and be unrepairable.

 

Having 3 lives for elements seems more than generous. As a long time Space Engineers / Kerbal Space Program player, I'd be happy with destroyed elements just vanishing (once they fix all the crash/disconnect bugs, anyway).

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35 minutes ago, Emptiness said:

If that B52 flies into a mountainside at 1000km/h, it's going to be catastrophically destroyed and be unrepairable.

 

Having 3 lives for elements seems more than generous. As a long time Space Engineers / Kerbal Space Program player, I'd be happy with destroyed elements just vanishing (once they fix all the crash/disconnect bugs, anyway).

Yes, but those pilots also die forever too. I was more thinking of needing repair over the time of service. Maybe time in service would only be tied to the core life. Elements would have lives based on the tier level. So that a tier-one would have five, a tier-two would have 12, and a tier-three would have 25. I would suggest that the lives and HP would be exponential due to the cost of the blueprint and materials that are also higher tier. I would think this would have to do with what NQ was talking about with custom parts and being able to add HP or fuel efficiency would determine the number of lives or serviceable hours an element has. I also think that elements that use fuel or power would have hours and all others would have lives.

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1 hour ago, Samedi said:

I do think though that NQ need to take a long hard look at how deeply they are thinking through the consequences of their changes. Improved testing via a public server will help, but with most of what's gone wrong in 0.23 feels to me to have been quite easy to have predicted.

The public server is really good news and I do hope that NQ will use it to it's fullest potential, including arranging mass testing when needed an I'm sure many will come and join in such events because it's important and wil benefit the game.

NQ clearly did not think the changes through going into 0.23 as far as how they affected the game and the impact they have combined with previous "issues". I really think that when observed form a balanced and clean server balance the patch was fine.

 

The intent of the changes for industry were quite clear and frankly fine; "create a situation where you need to specialize and invest in your choice to go into industry" and the changes would achieve that just fine _if_ the game was not at an imbalance where big orgs have already amassed so much wealth that they can squash any attempt in that direction and generally just continue business as usual and tend to their own as they have and will. NQ seems to not see that or not want to see that and because of this, while their idea here is absolutely fine, the implementation on the existing world would/will not be effective.

 

They now pretty much swung the other way where prices for schematics are so low that anyone can fairly quickly rebuild their industry as it was. On top of that NQ created an issue by clearing talents because players have taken that opportunity to change paths only to see that change is now pointless. They should at least allow for another talent wipe if players request that through a ticket and make sure those get prioritized and completed within a week or so. That said, the million TP we have now been promised may go a long way towards resolving that too.

 

I think it's better to go to where they have now moved for the time being though. Once they bring in a new patch with mission system and possibly (I hope) some more interesting exploration based content and more faucets become available in game there may be room for an increase in schematic cost to then meet or slightly up the bar as far as time spent to get specialization going.

 

The mission system is not a faucet though and it will not inject massive amounts of cash into the economy as here again, big orgs will tend to their own and be the actual isolationists in setting up missions for their members and spread the wealth internally. And unless NQ grows a sense of understanding that they wil need to repair the damage done very early on this issue will keep coming back. Several of us made the point then that it was not a good idea to let those that took advantage of the situation get away mostly unharmed as it would impact the game going forward were not wrong as we see now.

 

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28 minutes ago, Fra119 said:

Let me tell you my story: I played MMOs since I was 18 (35 now), the one I played the most is ofc WoW, can u imagine how many hours I spent on that game, I bet u can.

That said, every expansion is basically a wipe, it doesn't matter how many hours/days/weeks you spent on that latest raid, all of you effort goes down the toilet. 

I never heard once a complaint about that.

Why? Because they know how to drive player to the next scenario.

Here, as I already wrote on Reddit, is a thousand times easier than with an rpg, you have the whole real life universe to look for inspirations.

"Hello Noveans, our sun is about to go supernova, we need to leave asap, board the arc (or whatever that ship's name is), you can only carry what fits in your nanopack"

You could make and event to tease it by making the sun slowly became a red giant.

Boom, expansion sold, brand new system, fresh start for everyone.

 

This could be the transition from beta to release for example. And it's just one among many ideas you could use, black holes, meteors, etc etc.

I've played wow for many years too. I started back in tbc and went through every expansion up to bfa. I didn't buy shadowlands because i'm tired of expecting a game that will never exist again from blizzard and i'm not willing to pay them ever again. So i understand exactly what you mean, but wow is a themepark mmorpg. DU being a sandbox single shard world is completely different. Sandbox games usually require long term investment, but also give you high reward in time for that effort. You cannot start wiping this effort whenever new content arrives, doesn't work that way. What sandbox games do is introduce some new shiny item/content that is slightly better than whatever you had before so that the players start grinding for it again. Your old items never lose their value though. Look at a sandbox game like black desert for example. Also note that this game has many similarities with eve online. I never played eve but i've been checking out how it works.

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Going on from these changes, I wonder what protections players will have from buying mostly used elements or ships. I would think it would make sense to not be able to place an element on the market with less than its maximum number of lives. I am not sure that NQ has even thought about this, though. Also, if someone were to buy a ship from another player, we would need to see a “Space-Fax” report somehow, lol. There should be a way to view the item to understand better what one is purchasing.

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The sticking to the 'no wipe unless it's unavoidable due to the servers being nuked' sort of attitude is going to continue to bite NQ in the rear. You have paying customers now that think you will never wipe their stuff away while having major fundamental changes in the works that would warrant such a wipe in any other Alpha. 0.23 is exactly that kind of case, but now ya'll are stuck in rock and hard place of having to put Band-Aids on things to make them 'backwards' compatible etc wasting valuable dev time rather then on progress to the next thing. 

 

There is nothing to be done at this point really , it's very clear to everyone that screamed murder at this patch that NQ will never be able to issue a patch thats 'good for the game , but will upset a lot of people'. NQ's biggest hurdle moving forward will be if their game vision as described before is the vision, or if they want a Minecraft in space esq creative sandbox where no one really has to work for anything or risk anything in game. My money seeing this immediate reversal is we get the latter. I would be deeply concerned about how all this has gone down if I were an avid PvP'er as I can't at this point see any scenario where they 'force' the creatives into any sort of combat situation.

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19 hours ago, Billy_Boola said:

Element destruction should still happen in crashes.  Maybe give new players another way to repair them in their first month of playing. 

Core destruction in crashes is vile atm, especially if you're in anything larger than XS and crash on a planet/moon with no cores on the 'local' markets. 

Especially given the seemingly random way the game assigns damage during crashes. 

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19 hours ago, Chalana said:

Seems nice.
But can we have tools to communicate in the game ? We  can't leave a message to someone that is not connected, or even talk to someone that is not in our friend list or near us. It's the only MMO i know where the players can't really communicate in the game. 😥🤐

 

NQ, if you could make only one more change ever in your game, this is the one you should make. 

 

There can be no 'community' without communication. 

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52 minutes ago, Rimezx said:

I've played wow for many years too. I started back in tbc and went through every expansion up to bfa. I didn't buy shadowlands because i'm tired of expecting a game that will never exist again from blizzard and i'm not willing to pay them ever again. So i understand exactly what you mean, but wow is a themepark mmorpg. DU being a sandbox single shard world is completely different. Sandbox games usually require long term investment, but also give you high reward in time for that effort. You cannot start wiping this effort whenever new content arrives, doesn't work that way. What sandbox games do is introduce some new shiny item/content that is slightly better than whatever you had before so that the players start grinding for it again. Your old items never lose their value though. Look at a sandbox game like black desert for example. Also note that this game has many similarities with eve online. I never played eve but i've been checking out how it works.

Mind that I'm not saying that they should wipe every few months, wow is still a good example for this subject, expansions last from 1year and a half to 2 years (can't really remember the exact timings), and as NQ is planning to release at least in a year I'd say it could be a good opportunity to "wipe" and move on to a new system with the knowledge they accumulated over this beta.

 

As a side note: I'm not really into the rust attitude of wiping basically every week, even tho I enjoyed it a lot in the past :)

 

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My 2c. Existing changes and the desired end result NQ is looking for can only be attained with a complete everything wipe, all skills, buildings, EVERYTHING. Everything that is happening now is a half measure and a Band-Aid to bring this from A->B unnaturally.

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