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Update and my concerns


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I talked with many of the original core members of the Opean Federation almost immediately after the twitch stream from NQ yesterday, Monday December 7th. I wanted to raise many of my concerns revolving around what is going to happen in the game and the community and how it's killing the creativity that was originally offered to the community almost forcing players to come together in a senseless fashion. The new update is going to make small, medium and somewhat sizeable factories obsolete killing any kind of start up for small organizations that even range in the 100s making people incapable of getting off planet without participating in the in game economy and even larger organizations will have trouble surviving this update especially DSI who has recently lost a mega factory and suffered substantial losses on the battlefield putting them in a unrecoverable setback after this update. Taking away the creativity and inspiration that originally brought the community together in the first place is going to kill whatever community is still left playing considering the average activity rate on the server is 200 players. I originally came to the game because I loved the balance between the in game market place and the creative aspect of it. 

 

This update hinders so many possibilities small organizations are achieving and a timely basis and goal to goal trend and going to nerf the idea of small organizations or clans making a difference or becoming sizeable in game without having a massive player-base compared to organizations like the Empire which currently has 1.7K members in their community which compared to the game and what it is turning into solidifying their power (be aware I'm using the empire has an example) but small organizations competing with the giants is no longer a possibility but irrefutable and obsolete. 

 

The idea that I and my friends could log into this game and work on an ever expanding factory and going into space to form the empire we originally wanted too is now not a possibility that this update is forcing players to become Consumers instead of Creators like originally intended. The only organizations that will welcome and benefit off this update are the largest of organizations or the most well setup corporations that have little to lose except against espionage considering corporations at this point will become an essential piece of the game and will force players to rely on them monopolizing creativity in its process killing the game's freedom and expansion it offers severely limiting it. 

 

Yours truly - The Elector of the Opean Federation, Council members, and core members.

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4 minutes ago, calewars said:

The new update is going to make small, medium and somewhat sizeable factories obsolete killing any kind of start up for small organizations that even range in the 100s making people incapable of getting off planet without participating in the in game economy

 

This pretty much sums up the exact intention NQ has for this update. They want to brute force the markets into people's gameplay unless they are part of the big orgs who will continue to basically take care of their own internally and now will also be able to to benefit form the small player groups and solo players by controlling the markets.

 

NQ wants it this way and made the changes to achieve this.

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I second this. I wanted to play this game to build up cool ships and buildings and to play with friends, but even doing simple things in this game requires so much grinding that it sucks all the fun right out. And this update will just make it even worse. It really seems like NQ is trying to make players play a specific way. Either you're in the top group of orgs/players or you have to play it by their rules. How fun.

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This is a mmorpg, so it makes sense for players to have a need for others to achieve things in the game, otherwise we would be playing a survival singleplayer which is not what DU wants to be, nor was ever marketed as such.

 

"Large organizations will have an advantage"... I've heard this so many times, and again it's a baseless claim. The economy has and will have producers of different sizes, from the solo player to the largest organization. An organization with 100 players may end up producing 100 different elements earning 100 mlns, the solo player will simply produce 1 element earning 1 mln, which makes sense since the reward/player ratio is the same. You don't have to produce everything to compete as a producer, nor you're alone against the large organizations since there'll be plenty of other solo players/small orgs participating in the economy, trading and supporting each other. 

 

Specialized roles and a working economy will benefit the game greatly, making it more likely for players to play the way they want, since now we start needing each other for production so we effectively pay people to produce elements for us, instead of building industries for self production. One day we'll see other parts of the game require more specialization and it won't be that easy for a miner to pilot a large cargo ship, nor it will be easy for a pilot to use a weapon: we'll need each other and be willing to pay them to do a specific job that we can't do. At that point we'll see new kinds of jobs rise naturally (bounty hunter, miner, hauler, ... ), which is part of what being a sandbox means. 

 

DU isn't just a building game for creators, NQ wants to create an actual society that in a way works as a self-sufficient ecosystem, and it relies around the equilibrium between all parts and entities that take part in it. This change is one of the first that goes in that direction. 

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This is a well worded statement and so agree with this but the largest factor thats being taken away from the game in its own right was the simplicity of the game and how it operated and made everyone happy but gives more power to those who understand these specialized skills taking away the simplicity and the inability of becoming a solo creator with limiting factors, I cant log on singleplayer and build that deathstar or emerald city that would look cool in the game. Enabling economists to have an upper hand  on how the game functions is comparable to real life and the manipulation of the average consumer to buy a specific product vs being able to do so by yourself, if people wanted an economy system like this in a game they could go to star citizen, eve or other genre based MMORPG, but the limitless factor DU offered became more limited having to rely on societal and economic standards given by those who worked their way into those spots which could limit others from achieving those goals through realistic scenarios which are already occurring involving espionage and monopolization of the market in favor of those who control it. 

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28 minutes ago, Shynras said:

 

 

DU isn't just a building game for creators, NQ wants to create an actual society that in a way works as a self-sufficient ecosystem, and it relies around the equilibrium between all parts and entities that take part in it. This change is one of the first that goes in that direction. 

That may be the problem.  I'm here for entertainment.  I live in an actual society.  So factories have been crippled.  Well, ok it was interesting to expand my factory and be able to create new equipment to expand my capabilities in the game but, babysitting a factory was getting a bit stale and probably wouldn't have held my interest for too much longer.  So now that has been hobbled and I'm supposed do what instead of managing my factory?  Mine?  No thanks.  Make screws and schlep them 30 km to the nearest lag fest that pass for markets?  Again, no thanks.  Maybe, take what little wealth I've accumulated and piss it away on PvP.  That could be fun but, the current combat mechanic is pretty much at the level of being a graphical text adventure.  There is so so much that needs to be added content wise before worrying about forcing specialization. 

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Another concern that this update brings up, is that this update is going to make the large rich organizations more large and rich as solo or group players will be forced to join larger orgs so that they can do something fun with resources, instead of doing that with their friends or just alone. This update will ensure that the top stay at the top, and nothing can every come to challenge them. I can create screws for the market and get however much money i can from trading, but i would be forcing myself in screw manufacturing slavery since i cannot ever make enough money to build a ship or branch out as i have to spend the rest of my money on resources as my plot only has so much resources. I will never be able to build my own ship, i will never be able to grow a group. I will force myself into a 9-5 job where if i dont make and sell screws i make no money and i can do nothing. Unless ofcourse, i join an ultra rich org. 

The daily quanta giveaway is such a shit way to try and circumvent this system, but the problem still stands when they will eventual remove it for it to be complete player ran.

 

Anyway, Starbase looks promising. 

 

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28 minutes ago, calewars said:

This is a well worded statement and so agree with this but the largest factor thats being taken away from the game in its own right was the simplicity of the game and how it operated and made everyone happy but gives more power to those who understand these specialized skills taking away the simplicity and the inability of becoming a solo creator with limiting factors, I cant log on singleplayer and build that deathstar or emerald city that would look cool in the game. Enabling economists to have an upper hand  on how the game functions is comparable to real life and the manipulation of the average consumer to buy a specific product vs being able to do so by yourself, if people wanted an economy system like this in a game they could go to star citizen, eve or other genre based MMORPG, but the limitless factor DU offered became more limited having to rely on societal and economic standards given by those who worked their way into those spots which could limit others from achieving those goals through realistic scenarios which are already occurring involving espionage and monopolization of the market in favor of those who control it. 

DU was meant from the beginning to be EVE + Minecraft, so it makes sense for it to have that kind of economy system. The economy will find its new balance and the game will work better than before. I understand that in a way these limits can be annoying, but it's the price to pay to have the economy and the emergent gameplay running. Without specialization the economy simply doesn't work.

 

23 minutes ago, Kruzer said:

That may be the problem.  I'm here for entertainment.  I live in an actual society.  So factories have been crippled.  Well, ok it was interesting to expand my factory and be able to create new equipment to expand my capabilities in the game but, babysitting a factory was getting a bit stale and probably wouldn't have held my interest for too much longer.  So now that has been hobbled and I'm supposed do what instead of managing my factory?  Mine?  No thanks.  Make screws and schlep them 30 km to the nearest lag fest that pass for markets?  Again, no thanks.  Maybe, take what little wealth I've accumulated and piss it away on PvP.  That could be fun but, the current combat mechanic is pretty much at the level of being a graphical text adventure.  There is so so much that needs to be added content wise before worrying about forcing specialization. 

True, the problem aren't the changes themselves but the fact that there are a lot of features missing and players are left with very few choices

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8 minutes ago, Shynras said:

True, the problem aren't the changes themselves but the fact that there are a lot of features missing and players are left with very few choices

That's the biggest issue in DU.

 

Here's a joke for you - know why the game is called Dual Universe? Cause there are two universes, one that NQ thinks the game is and then one that the game actually is.

 

 

You can talk all day about planned features, planned player roles, and things that players could do in the game - but if you actually truly take an honest look at what the players really do in the game  - it's a distinctly different game.

 

If you talk about the mythical vision of building a society in space and all that - you get lost in the hopes and dreams. Do not make this mistake. Look at the game as it is today and how it works today, with the player options available today, and tell me that you still think that the patch tomorrow is the right patch at the right time.

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22 minutes ago, Mordgier said:

That's the biggest issue in DU.

 

Here's a joke for you - know why the game is called Dual Universe? Cause there are two universes, one that NQ thinks the game is and then one that the game actually is.

 

 

You can talk all day about planned features, planned player roles, and things that players could do in the game - but if you actually truly take an honest look at what the players really do in the game  - it's a distinctly different game.

 

If you talk about the mythical vision of building a society in space and all that - you get lost in the hopes and dreams. Do not make this mistake. Look at the game as it is today and how it works today, with the player options available today, and tell me that you still think that the patch tomorrow is the right patch at the right time.

I think it's a patch that 's better to happen now than later, we can't wait for the game to be feature complete before we do these drastic changes. I understand that for some people this patch brings some of the fun away, making them feel as there isn't much left for them to do, but in that case I'd suggest to just take a break and come back when they add more content. 

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1 hour ago, Shynras said:

"Large organizations will have an advantage"... I've heard this so many times, and again it's a baseless claim.

You are taking comments out of context to suit your narrative here.

 

Of course, taking this comment on it's own it is absolutely fair en makes sense and no one is disputing this nor saying it is not fair.

 

With the new changes and the lack of any balancing measures surrounding it, such as a wipe or otherwise, large organizations, especially those which have taken advantage of the mistakes, loopholes and exploits NQ left untouched mostly and allowed them to enrich themselves both financially and in stockpiling expensive and high end elements. These org have a _massive_ advantage since they are able to reset and reconfigure very quickly to the new changes and likely have started doing so already while (once more) taking advantage of the information available prior to the patch, some taking advantage of information they got through their ATV members who had access to the patch early on a separate server. No need to deny this as I know this to be the case (alts are a wonderful tool).

 

Once the patch goes live, these orgs, which also made sure to buy up most of the higher tier elements in advance to cerate shortages, will not be able to quickly both re-config and will dominate and dictate markets. As of tomorrow, large orgs and especially those who took advantage of aforementioned situations, will have a huge advantage and will pretty much be able to control markets to boot. NQ designed the changes this way as they want to see smaller orgs and solo players not be able to fend for themselves but instead force them to use markets. That is pretty much what JC said on the Q&A.

 

So yes, in the context of these changes and with the well know issues which started in the week prior to beta release, Large orgs will have a massive leg up which fromwhat we know and have heard is pretty much by design.

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Just now, Shynras said:

making them feel as there isn't much left for them to do

Please avoid using such language.

 

It's not that the players 'feel' as there isn't much left to do.

 

It's the harsh reality. There isn't much to do. 

 

Schematics are not a terrible idea - I'm OK with them for certain things - when the game has plenty of other content and we can afford to give players the option to branch out into 'advanced industry' that requires BPs.

 

That would be adding an option. Do regular newbie grade industry - or advanced stuff that you really need to invest in massively....gee which game did that before...oh right. Eve with T2....

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Tomorrows patch is happening whether we like it or not, that is clear.

 

This industry 'balance' was considered NQ's top priority, it is not on the road map that appears when you login so it must have been super urgent. More urgent than a mission system like that game your trying to copy, you know, EVE online that allows players to follow alternate progression paths. A mission system that allows a basic player with minimal skills to create wealth to buy ships and craft meaningful player engagement.

 

Been playing 2 1/2 months. Cancelled my subscription today after I saw the message about 0.23 tomorrow. No interest in loosing everything I have built because i never bothered to create money, I just had fun building a factory, making my own ships and exploring.

 

Never mind, Cyberpunk 2077 is out tomorrow, no loss no foul.

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2 minutes ago, Gilgarmesh said:

No interest in loosing everything I have built because i never bothered to create money, I just had fun building a factory, making my own ships and exploring.

That's exactly how I feel. If possible, I want to not have to touch the market at all and just make everything from scratch. But from what I've been seeing, doing it this way will be much grindier than it already is.

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2 minutes ago, Shynras said:

I think it's a patch that 's better to happen now than later,

 

The big problem here is that NQ is pretending the game is in beta when changes like these are clearly not something which you would see in beta at all. It just confirms the game is at best early alpha in actual development state. And in that context, a wipe would be pretty much a given.

I think these changes may well have a much worse fallout than a wipe would have at this stage and by wiping, NQ would provide a level playing field where yes, a larger org will have advantages for sure, but everyone gets to have a chance to build their position in the game after major changes, unlike now where overnight the "haves" get more and the "have nots" are going to have a _much_ harder time to get anything.

 

NQ at least has the sensibility to not also bring in their linked container nerf which I am guessing would have nerfed range to something like 250-300 meters at full talent skills. The justification for this nerf is absolutely mindboggling and just underlines NQ (and from how he spoke on the QA I feel JC especially) is totally disconnected from what  the player base wants or does. NQ is creating JC's sandbox and we get to play in it as long as we do as he envisions we do.

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Under consideration that the community is enraged as it is and whether or not the NQ development team and JC himself is willing to make a compromise or take into consideration everyones concerns will depict the long term running of the game and its willingness to try to make the entire community happy or at least content. Otherwise the continuous running of this and the willingness to drive large portions of the community away from the game with a single vision and closed mind is bad game development plain and simple under consideration the game was built with the communities money which will be proven wasted. The more this game takes a turn for the worst the more I and others will want to be refunded for the money we put into the game and the time we spent in the game we will never get back. 

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As of the devblog on industry being released, elements like warpdrives and AGG are "reserved" for the elite and big orgs. They have bought up all stock on markets and will only bring surplus to market at extreme prices (warp drives now cost over 4x what they did Sunday and it will get worse). It's virtually impossible for small groups or solo players to compete because the rich start with such a head start they become untouchable.

 

In tomorrow's DU, players do not have the option to use territory scanners, warp or AGG unless the big orgs allow it. They can pull stock and set prices at a level your average joe has no access. This means that big orgs will be able to freely go out and warp around, scan and get richer while the small guy is left with scraps..

 

Well done NQ, you have just added a class system to your MMO. 

 

 

  

6 hours ago, calewars said:

under consideration the game was built with the communities money

 

Not really, the crowd funding only accounts for 10% of the funds raised for the game.

And no, you do not have a chance in hell to get a pledge refunded.. it is also not realistic to have that expectation.

 

Frankly, up until this patch announcement I was actually willing to spend more to support NQ in making the game, be it through a new funding round with packs or cash shop. After this announcement however I am not spending one more cent on the game and my subbed alts will run out their time and go dormant. NQ gives me no reason to support them any more than I have so far and as I have well over 4 years of play time waiting once DAC goes live (and DAC will be useless in game with no reasonable expectation to actually be able to make enough to pay for game time in game) that is just going to go to be used if I even end up sticking with the game which I am not sure I will anymore unless thing change over the next year in a drastic way.

 

NQ is taking DU in a direction which doen sot in any way aligns with what was presented during kickstarter and prior to pre-alpha. When you back a game through a pledge you take a chance on it.. It's starting to look like this time things wil not work out as expected and hoped..

 

But let's hope NQ come to their senses .. and soon..

 

They can't undo the changes in industry and frankly, by themselves they are not bad actually. But they can reduce the  burden by adjusting the cost for the schematics, which I hope and expect will happen very quickly to stop the bleeding which will start as of tomorrow. I also feel their idea is, once more half-baked and I posted my thoughts on that here.

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2 hours ago, blazemonger said:

I think these changes may well have a much worse fallout than a wipe would have at this stage and by wiping, NQ would provide a level playing field where yes, a larger org will have advantages for sure, but everyone gets to have a chance to build their position in the game after major changes, unlike now where overnight the "haves" get more and the "have nots" are going to have a _much_ harder time to get anything.

I agree! A wipe would be better--after they fully fixed the game and added the missing fundamental features--than to not wipe it at all and keep changing it radically. I don't mind at all if I have to start over again if that means starting over again on this game that has been fully fixed and developed. Right now, we are playing on a game that is at early stage of development with no more wipe, which means it is already in Early Access. A lot of people here are treating it that way--Early Access--and many of them will not agree to a wipe that you and I justifiably recommend. Many of these people don't want to start over again. Here is my rationality: the game at this point is far from being in beta state, what is better?: accept it now as Early Access or move the Early Access later on when the game reaches the development state when we can properly call it "Early Access"? They have to wipe the game WHEN the game has been fixed and developed to a point where we can call it "Early Access". Right now, it is not at that quality yet. It is their decision at the end of the day, but this is just what I recommend.

 

What they are trying to do is add consumption to the economy because right now, at the state of this game, we don't have an industrialized economy, we don't even have a cottage industry economy because nobody trades, alright, you cannot call it an "economy"! What we currently have is self-sufficiency! That is the problem that they have to fix. An economy needs consumer, it doesn't work without consumer. You have producers and you don't have consumers, does it make any sense? Think of a food chain: if there are plants that produce their own energy from the sun and water and there is nothing that eats the plant, do we have a food chain? In order for producers to interact economically with other players, they need people to interact with--you need consumers (to trade what you have produced otherwise you will consume everything you have produced). I co-own a business in real-life that grows and sell produce, if nobody buys my produce, do I have a business? common-sense, alright! I am one of the people who is interested in the economic aspect of this game and sadly, as of right now, you got no economy. 

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I don't think the market system is ready for this change. Forcing the majority of players to use the market means the market will be unusable in a couple of days. How it is right now is everyone can place constructs at the market and there is not really enough space to maintain a fully market shift. I can easily see the markets cluttered with large cores of all size of complexity and I don't really see how this could work. 

 

I can not speak for others but the reason I did not use the markets as much as I would is not the system in itself it is the technical issues that come with it. And this update has nothing indicated that the technical issues around the markets are addressed accordingly.

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6 hours ago, Gilgarmesh said:

A mission system like that game your trying to copy, you know, EVE online that allows players to follow alternate progression paths. A mission system that allows a basic player with minimal skills to create wealth to buy ships and craft meaningful player engagement.

 

Been playing 2 1/2 months. Cancelled my subscription today after I saw the message about 0.23 tomorrow. No interest in loosing everything I have built because i never bothered to create money, I just had fun building a factory, making my own ships and exploring.

 

6 hours ago, Mordgier said:

You can talk all day about planned features, planned player roles, and things that players could do in the game - but if you actually truly take an honest look at what the players really do in the game  - it's a distinctly different game.

 

If you talk about the mythical vision of building a society in space and all that - you get lost in the hopes and dreams. Do not make this mistake. Look at the game as it is today and how it works today, with the player options available today, and tell me that you still think that the patch tomorrow is the right patch at the right time.

I think the problem is that the game went in to beta too early, players flocked in and are now disappointed when NQ changes things to be more in line what they envision for the game. The game right now is not ready for casual players, as JC has said now is the time to build the foundations for the society, the average player doesn't have the time or interest to be that invested in a game.

 

If it's too hard now, come back in a couple years and give it another try when the features and playerbase is more mature. It's alright to wait. Being frustrated that the game isn't complete is understandable.

 

There might also be a disconnect with what some people want the game to be and what the game tries to be. It's trying to be an alternative reality, with all the hardships that entails, not a theme park. At least right now, maybe there'll be theme parks some day who knows. It's impossible to please the creative (in the infinite resources sense) crowd who just want to build a cool deathstar in a week that everyone will visit and be in awe, and the 15h/day "I live in this world more than the real world and want the deathstar to be a real achievement requiring months of work" players.

 

The game being incomplete is probably the reason why there's almost zero advertising for the game.

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If this was an Alpha patch and NQ would wipe servers to get  good data on how the changes impact the game there would not be any issue. The ideas behind most of the changes are good and some of them are fine as they are.

 

The problem is that NQ is introducing massive change with far reaching impact into an unstable and underperforming live game or which they require payment from players to gain access.

 

It feels like NQ really has not yet realized that they placed themselves in a position where the game can't be manipulated like this anymore but pretending it's beta and expecting payment for access. The focus is so narrow and centered around what JC thinks the game needs to be that there is no awareness of the actual state of the game and what makes it go..

 

 

It's like when the CCP CEO (while mining himself!) found out that players had started using a developer tool (eject cargo) to jettison containers as a means to eject ore when mining and the hold was full to then get haulers to come in and scoop up the ore, thus creating logistic operations (you know, this thing called emergent gameplay). CCP realized the innovative and creative use of this and build on that, making it a full feature in game. NQ would have removed it as it was "never intended this way and made mining too easy".

 

For all it's flaws, these are the (small) things why EVE is still around and going strong two decades later and we will have to see if DU makes it to release. 

 

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11 hours ago, blazemonger said:

Once the patch goes live, these orgs, which also made sure to buy up most of the higher tier elements in advance to cerate shortages, will not be able to quickly both re-config and will dominate and dictate markets.

The joke is that JC is doing this to stimulate a working economy. 

 

I looked for sale orders for 'uncommon electronics' earlier today, just before patch. 

 

There were 3 orders. That's it. 3. For a T2 part. All were well over 30 minutes travel round trip. 

 

Dysfunctional does not even begin to describe what this patch has already done to the economy in DU. 

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