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Mordgier

JC - This game is not Ready Player One....

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1 minute ago, Ram said:

This is an interesting leading question. Let me break down your point behind your reasoning here. It's a competition. Competitions are everywhere in the real world. From sports to video games to companies competing for consumer attention. Does every company win? Does every sports team win? Does every video game player win? No, in a competition, there is usually 1 winner, regardless of the number of competitors. That is how it works. In any competition, most people do not win. You are attempting to say, "look, only like 5 people who were super nerds were able to dedicate the time and effort to solving the RPO puzzle" out of some idea that this is bad, because you compare it to, "look, only like 5 people who were super nerds were able to dedicate the time and effort to solving the DU puzzle". Even IF everyone was told about the DU puzzle and given ample time, the first few dedicated nolifers would still have found it and the same exact outcome would have happened. What is your point here regarding it? That competition is bad? It's a non-starter. You have no real point I'm afraid, except that DU should not be like a fictional video game, which it isn't, but ingame easter eggs have nothing to do with that, and neither do mini-events around a handful of players finding them. Additionally, now that *one* out of the doubtless many scattered throughout the solar system, has been found, and covered, that now gives everyone else opportunity to look for others. Now everyone *does* know and *does* have ample time to find more. What is the problem here?

 

As to directly answer your question, a small group of players who knew their stuff because they were supernerds about Halliday, was able to solve the puzzle. They were not the only ones trying, however.

Great, so lets be clear here, if there was a MMO where only a handful of players can 'win' - I sure wouldn't play it - because that doesn't sound like fun to me because I know full well that despite how much I poopsock I don't come close to the level of the top .0001% of the players who stand an actual chance.

 

That is the whole damn issue with RPO and this event. It caters to outliers. That's what makes it a bad event. That's what makes RPO a terrible game. That's the whole point. That's why looking at RPO and saying DU is like it is absolutely toxic.

 

A good event is where a much larger part of the community can participate and much larger number can win. This wasn't it.

 

The worst thing is that DU is building on a foundation of other REAL games not absurd fiction that did events and did them so much better that it blows my mind that JC does not see the DU event as an absolute failure.

 

Did you play Elite? Did you participate in the alien event? You know....this one: https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/01/06/the-elite-dangerous-alien-discovery-is-one-of-the-coolest-gaming-events-ive-ever-seen/#5f5179c37389

 

That was in my opinion an example of an event that was well done. Who won? The community did.

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Just now, Mordgier said:

Great, so lets be clear here, if there was a MMO where only a handful of players can 'win' - I sure wouldn't play it - because that doesn't sound like fun to me because I know full well that despite how much I poopsock I don't come close to the level of the top .0001% of the players who stand an actual chance.

 

That is the whole damn issue with RPO and this event. It caters to outliers. That's what makes it a bad event. That's what makes RPO a terrible game. That's the whole point. That's why looking at RPO and saying DU is like it is absolutely toxic.

 

A good event is where a much larger part of the community can participate and much larger number can win. This wasn't it.

 

The worst thing is that DU is building on a foundation of other REAL games not absurd fiction that did events and did them so much better that it blows my mind that JC does not see the DU event as an absolute failure.

 

Did you play Elite? Did you participate in the alien event? You know....this one: https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/01/06/the-elite-dangerous-alien-discovery-is-one-of-the-coolest-gaming-events-ive-ever-seen/#5f5179c37389

 

That was in my opinion an example of an event that was well done. Who won? The community did.

Look, I get your point, but it is misapplied here. Every MMO is an MMO where only a handful of players can "win". What do we define as wining in an MMO? Being in the top PVP rankings and/or being in the top endgame PVE content rankings (raids, etc). THOSE are the "winners" of the game and there's a handful of people that good. EVERY MMO is like this. However, the goal isn't to "win" in an MMO it is to be a part of a community and have fun with your character, regardless of how good you are. DU's "winning goal" is NOT to find easter eggs, and it isn't to be the first to do it either. The only real win conditions here would be a result of future PVP where two or more orgs fought a war and one had most of their infrastructure/constructs/tiles destroyed or looted to the point of being useless. The one(s) who caused that upon their enemies would "win" DU, in that context of that war. Obviously, if the goal of DU was to find easter eggs and whoever did "wins", then yeah, I agree, I wouldn't play it either, but that isn't the case. This is just a fun little side event.

 

I disagree with you about what constitutes a "good" event, however I will agree that this DU easter egg event was not one. It wasn't horrible either. To me, it's not relevant to anything in DU. Let's say there's 100 easter eggs like this spread around the system. That's 100 more chances for tons of more players to find them in the future in other events. They're easter eggs, the entire point is that they're irrelevant, but neat little things to find in the game. They have no impact on the gameplay whatsoever, or the rest of the players. Now if these easter eggs turn out to be connected to a similar alien event like the E:D one you mention, and they are "required" for that content to happen, I agree 100% with you. That remains to be seen. As long as this is a mini-event that has nothing to do with the game but is a fun thing they can repeatedly do over and over so that eventually, almost everyone has participated in the events and found an easter egg, then there isn't an issue in my mind.

 

I did play Elite, but unfortunately not during the alien event. I agree, that is how you do a game content event, and if DU ever has one, they should emulate it. But this, is not the same type of event.

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3 hours ago, Mordgier said:

I'm more concerned about player tactics and uhh 'playstyles' and devs being surprised by them. The current PvP meta is a perfect example.

 

It should have been obvious that the rules as they are favored xs cubes with L weapons and crippled everything else. It should have been obvious on paper. Yet here we are.

 

This is why I'm actually dreading territory warfare despite being very pvp focused at heart. If they released pvp in this shape, and yeah I know it's the first pass and yeah I know that they know it's broken, what shape will TW be in on day one?  The fact is  that the pvp as implemented was non viable  and yet was totally missed. What will TW be like if the 'vision' blinds them to the reality of how such games are played?

If it makes you feel better, NQ has always been blind to how the game is played. That and they seem to make the willful choice to ignore their playerbase when we bring up valid points about how future features will be abused.

 

The fact that you need a TCU to place statics is directly related to events that happened in Alpha. 

 

When we all saw the stats for weapons every active pvp org told NQ exactly what the meta would be. In the end we were correct.

 

NQ does not play their own game enough and that has been evident for years.

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2 hours ago, Ram said:

They have no impact on the gameplay whatsoever, or the rest of the players. Now if these easter eggs turn out to be connected to a similar alien event like the E:D one you mention, and they are "required" for that content to happen, I agree 100% with you

Thing is tho, it IS connected and required as JC stated himself

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Heh.... I will throw one single thing in here - not sure why no one really mention that. 
When single corp, which was trying to solve that puzzle, run into a wall - NQ added more clues. Its not like "when whole community couldn't deal with problem". It was one org. Run into wall unable to decipher stuff. NQ gave them handout which allowed them to finish it.
It looked like NQ thought process was something along the lines - "Hey, they solving that puzzle! Hey, it goes very fast for them. Hey, they hit a wall, lets help them so we can see the puzzle solved".

Next time something "cool" happen, they already set precedence for stuff like this: "Hey - they are  preparing for super big battle. Hey, one side is being destroyed before they can even get to the battlefield.... Hey, lets give them freebies so we can see great battle". 

Edit: Oh, and i'm sure the ore they find will be super important. Which basically mean that org got super important handout from NQ. I could go on about how f.up this even was (bug with radar? duplicating what was in alpha?) but its all less important for me than NQ attitude towards "hey, something cool is happening" shown here..... 
 

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49 minutes ago, Elrood said:

Heh.... I will throw one single thing in here - not sure why no one really mention that. 
When single corp, which was trying to solve that puzzle, run into a wall - NQ added more clues. Its not like "when whole community couldn't deal with problem". It was one org. Run into wall unable to decipher stuff. NQ gave them handout which allowed them to finish it.
It looked like NQ thought process was something along the lines - "Hey, they solving that puzzle! Hey, it goes very fast for them. Hey, they hit a wall, lets help them so we can see the puzzle solved".

Next time something "cool" happen, they already set precedence for stuff like this: "Hey - they are  preparing for super big battle. Hey, one side is being destroyed before they can even get to the battlefield.... Hey, lets give them freebies so we can see great battle". 

Edit: Oh, and i'm sure the ore they find will be super important. Which basically mean that org got super important handout from NQ. I could go on about how f.up this even was (bug with radar? duplicating what was in alpha?) but its all less important for me than NQ attitude towards "hey, something cool is happening" shown here..... 
 

People know, when wrecks came, some knew the exact location of the spawns, when this event started, some know exactly what to do, and like you mention, when they got stuck, they got a hand. Now, I know people will say, proof or it never happened, etc etc, it’s well known that some people are getting hand outs and are told information that is simply not available to the rest, and if that gets me in trouble, I don’t care anymore. 

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1 minute ago, Iorail said:

People know, when wrecks came, some knew the exact location of the spawns, when this event started, some know exactly what to do, and like you mention, when they got stuck, they got a hand. Now, I know people will say, proof or it never happened, etc etc, it’s well known that some people are getting hand outs and are told information that is simply not available to the rest, and if that gets me in trouble, I don’t care anymore. 

Backchannels are problem - but one that could have been said was not officially allowed by NQ. Admitting to giving handouts in public podcast made official by company and staring company top people, is quite few levels further into BS.  

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1 hour ago, Elrood said:

Backchannels are problem - but one that could have been said was not officially allowed by NQ. Admitting to giving handouts in public podcast made official by company and staring company top people, is quite few levels further into BS.  

 

That’s pretty much already happening.  Every recent “announcement” about future mechanics has been on an unofficial channel like a YouTube or Twitch interview.  It’s actually kind of amazing that the devs used their own channel to talk about something in this case.

 

essentially when the devs decide to announce important mechanics like how Territory Control will work I’m expecting whatever top org hosts the interview will be able to take actions days before everyone else.   Based on whatever preinterview setup happens (getting told what questions they’re allowed to ask, which ones JC won’t answer, and getting enough information about the update to be able to actually ask intelligent questions).

 

(these are org leaders taking bets on DU being an income source with video monetization, and already selling T-Shirts.   Essentially like if EVE/CCP relied on an org like Goonswarm as an official news channel)

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2 minutes ago, HangerHangar said:

 

That’s pretty much already happening.  Every recent “announcement” about future mechanics has been on an unofficial channel like a YouTube or Twitch interview.  It’s actually kind of amazing that the devs used their own channel to talk about something in this case.

 

essentially when the devs decide to announce important mechanics like how Territory Control will work I’m expecting whatever top org hosts the interview will be able to take actions days before everyone one else.   Based on whatever preinterview setup happens (getting told what questions they’re allowed to ask, which ones JC won’t answer, and getting enough information about the update to be able to actually ask intelligent questions).

 

(these are org leaders taking bets on DU being an income source with video monetization, and already selling T-Shirts.   Essentially like if EVE/CCP relied on an org like Goonswarm as an official news channel)

That depends. I'm not going to scream about it for so long as I don't have real reason and facts to based my screaming on. Lets take territory warfare for one - if they give sane timeline after "officially" announcing it - than to me it doesn't matter if some people knew about it a bit faster or not. If they drop it in a patch one day and say "We changed safe zone to:"  without prior warning - fuck it, not worth my time nor money. I will wait and see.
Non the less my trust in NQ impartiality and common sense and in theory that DU is "player driven" is all time low and still going down. 

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If this game is supposed to be a community-driven civilization sandbox, making an event that caters to a tiny minority of players (and JC's apparent Halliday-inspired ego) isn't very interesting or useful. It makes me think that the "civilization" they want to create will mirror all the boring issues of RL society where only a select few get to do anything. 

 

Yes, it's a competition, but not a fair one. It seems like it was more engineered for press and to satisfy the CEO's obsessions. 

 

Honestly...I don't care about the easter egg very much. It just isn't that interesting to me. 

 

What is interesting is that they thought this was a good use of anyone's time considering the state of the game.

 

Maybe JC is leading NQ based on his personal whims...he's not interested in what's best for the game, his company/employees, or the community because he can't see the product objectively anymore. It's his oasis and we're all just lucky to live in it. 

 

Happy to change my tune and admit how wrong I was....just need some evidence to make me believe that JC isn't a stereotypical egotistical academic narcissist. 🤷‍♂️

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1 hour ago, michaelk said:

just need some evidence to make me believe that JC isn't a stereotypical egotistical academic narcissist.

That's pretty toxic, shouldn't you need evidence to believe he is, instead of just assuming without knowing him personally.

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28 minutes ago, Haunty said:

That's pretty toxic, shouldn't you need evidence to believe he is, instead of just assuming without knowing him personally.

It is an assumption, but not one formed in a vacuum. 

 

I am likely biased, but it takes a certain level of ego to even attempt to make a game like DU as your first ever game project when you have zero experience in the field...that's like me attempting to make Data as my first ever robot. Would it be "ambitious" or arrogant? (P.S. I have never worked in robotics)

 

A few other reasons I have this opinion: 

  • Not interested in mundane things like detailing core features 
  • Very interested in being on streams and being the visible face of the game (most game companies don't have their CEOs spending so much time on streams because they are busy leading the company)
  • Not that interested in negative feedback -- not eager to apologize, admit fault, make changes (e.g. "sorry we know we need to communicate better") 
  • Running an event that he cares about but doesn't really help the community; is a distraction to the many other things to do 
  • Obsession with RPO (sees himself as Halliday?) 
  • Life experience? I'm sure there's humble PhD/CEO/Creative Director/Founders out there...I'd love to meet one someday! 

 

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3 hours ago, michaelk said:

Maybe JC is leading NQ based on his personal whims...he's not interested in what's best for the game, his company/employees, or the community because he can't see the product objectively anymore. It's his oasis and we're all just lucky to live in it. 

This right here is my impression also, it’s like as long as his ego is feed, everything else becomes secondary, just my opinion.

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3 hours ago, michaelk said:

Maybe JC is leading NQ based on his personal whims...

 

If JC hadn't decided to lead the company based on his personal whim's, the game wouldn't exist.

 

If he was interested in what's best for the company, Dual Universe would be some kind of Battle Royal shooter.

 

It is truly his Oasis.

 

He'll probably make some bad decisions.  But his whims have gotten us this far.

 

 

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On 10/15/2020 at 3:49 PM, Mordgier said:

Did I say it wasn't fun?

 

It was unfair. It was borderline rigged. It was extremely exclusive.

 

So maybe it was fun for about two dozen people - and if JC's goal is to make a game that is going to have thousands of players that is fun for a handful that is indeed the RPO structure.

 

Every day I ask myself the same question. Many have asked themselves the same thing and come to conclusion that this is in fact a game they should not play. The fact that this is become that game is why I made this post.

Take a break.  I alternate between DU and DCS world.  When I am feeling crafty I make things in DU.  But I don't have to worry about much right now.  But when I want relaxed PVP or just PVE I play DCS.  Where I can fly and fight in a semi realistic environment.

 

It is a good break from DU. 

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On 10/15/2020 at 5:15 PM, michaelk said:

I hate to be this person, but it isn't so obvious there's a story or lore in this game...

 

Earth decides to build this massive humanity-saving Ark in a feat of unparalleled cooperation, but they all agreed in advance that as soon as people thaw out it'll be a free for all with no government or law? Well, first they decide to build like 20 copies of the same city...then it's time to start thawin' people out and letting 'em do whatever the heck they want. 

 

The real dark theme of DU is that humans aren't capable of learning from their mistakes and will be locked in eternal pointless conflict forever. :D 

That is the nature of man.

 

I mean even that new show "Raised by Wolves" says the same thing.  Mankind does one thing extremely well we fight.

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3 minutes ago, LouHodo said:

That is the nature of man.

 

I mean even that new show "Raised by Wolves" says the same thing.  Mankind does one thing extremely well we fight.

I've read the forum. Very true. 

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18 hours ago, Lethys said:

Thing is tho, it IS connected and required as JC stated himself

Well then blow me down...dang it JC

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16 hours ago, Ram said:

Well then blow me down...dang it JC

To be fair, we don't know if there will be many other sources and they just got to be the first to get it.

 

So as of right now it's impossible to say what the value of the reward was - but JC was pretty clear that it wasn't worthless.

 

I'm personally less concerned about the actual impact of how the ore was distributed rather the perception of the whole thing.

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In way game still hugely tailored for old alpha folks, who know game quirks well, can afford invest a lot of time and gladly participate in everything like it last time in life.


Its natural thing in online games and we speaking about good people who generaly kept this game afloat (!) during quite dodgy alpha times, yet I sometimes worried too about NQ ability to be more... well, apealing? welcoming? incslusive? looking wider? for new and different people, wanting not same things as established core of super-veteran players (who obviously keep some lobby power around too, achieved results of which I don't like mostly).

 

Still, old thing here. While I hugely respect JC for his vision and staying power to make things actualy happen (not jump of boat like many in KS), yet also I think a lot of his desicions in game disign/priorities are just bad and sometimes blatant mistakes. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 10/16/2020 at 1:51 AM, Moosegun said:

Not seen ready player one, or got any idea what it is about.  Might be because i am old.  I think i get what you are talking about BUT, it is possible to create a game where both can exsist.  Where the hardcore players create the gameworld for the others.  Of course it would take the right mechanics and improved game stability and performance but it can be done.  Would give examples but rushing a cracking ship build at the moment.

IMO, this easter egg was morally wrong. 

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But the point remains.

 

- people won't spend hours patrolling a planet while their friends dig and have fun

- no one will stand guard at a base for hours waiting for some fleet to attack.

- there will be no armed escorts of players wandering around the solar system traveling at non-warp speed hoping to be attacked to break the total boredom

Or ... it will happen. But only if all these situations become truly profitable. That is, services paid for in quanta and converted into real money.
And well ... I wouldn't even object to that. It would even be a good opportunity to create new work situations. But then favoritism to individuals or orgs becomes something unmentionably gross.
The comparison with RPO is supported only in case DU becomes a source of real money exchange through virtual services.
Otherwise it's just fantasy.

 

And it would look good on me. But even the fantasy needs a structure to support itself. And the structure we're going to is already wobbling.

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Couple of things I picked up from listening to the interview and what people have said here. 

 

This Easter egg hunt was in one key way the opposite of Ready Player One.

 

Three Org leaders with hundreds of players in their Orgs were principal Gunters, they also involved players in their Orgs. 

 

That does not really equate with RPO (where a small band of plucky individuals, not Corporation leaders) are the heroes.

 

Amusingly it also sounds like Whitemeat (around 22-24 minutes in) reveals that Knoober betrayed his own Org members by selling out that they were close to the discovery, so DSI reinforcements were brought in to blockade and destroy ships. Interesting leadership choice that. Congrats f you're an Infinity Corp member that got your ship trashed that weekend. 

 

If I'm wrong about that and IC were told in back channels to stay away, fair play, but that's not how the interview sounds. :)

 

For clarity, I'd also joined Wayfarers, as a new player during Beta, and can say players were openly encouraged to find and discover the artifacts, but not spoon fed the keys to solving the puzzle. 

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Without having read all the responses: Yes, the event was a major failure and the devs should look at how other studios do such things. Even Frontier handles this better and they make a lot of wrong descissions with whatever they do (in my opinion).

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