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how will the large crew that large ship may have work in a game like this

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Like you said, it's a game.  How many players really want to sit idle for hours in a ship?

I can actually see it working, in the sense that large multi-crew ships can sit at a space station waiting to be called into action for large scale conflicts.  But it's a tough balance to make, because the conflicts need to start with solo ships, and as long as 5 ships can match the firepower of a 5 crew ship, the 5 solo ships will always have a big advantage.

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54 minutes ago, SaintShaun said:

Like you said, it's a game.  How many players really want to sit idle for hours in a ship?

So like i say just be a fighter class pilot. Where you are the only pilot and you can fire multi weapon on the same time. They can do what ever they want, shot any target they like.

 

55 minutes ago, SaintShaun said:

I can actually see it working, in the sense that large multi-crew ships can sit at a space station waiting to be called into action for large scale conflicts.  But it's a tough balance to make, because the conflicts need to start with solo ships, and as long as 5 ships can match the firepower of a 5 crew ship, the 5 solo ships will always have a big advantage.

That is why we got small vessel like cruiser or destroyer class in any game i have encounter. Because put a large battle ship into a small conflict is waste of resource and time so we got smaller ship for smaller conflict. Big ship got more gun and more fire power but same time it eat lot more resource and like you say player dont want to idle, they want to shot something and not idle inside big ship. Big ship only got it use when it is siege or need AOE damage or just scare the enemy, when fight with smaller ship like a fighter it big gun maybe not very useful so here we go we got smaller ship like cruiser and destroyer to do it and protect big ship.

So i dont see any problem with every gun need player to control it. I really dont see a solo ship got 100 gun on it because it is not very efficiently for auto shot like 1% hit chance so we just need to add 100 more gun to increase the hit rate. But when put it consider 1 player cant gather enough resource to get a 100 gun ship unless they put enormous RL money into it but i'm like to see what drama they have once they ship got board and get captured =]]. 

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NQ doesn't want solo players to do the same things as groups - that's why they go for this system.

 

But imho that's not bad because the meta of DU will balance this anyway. When unorganized ppl can't do multicrew then they will use single seaters (or very small ships with 2-3 ppl) - thus the meta of PVP in DU will use mainly those. Groups which can figure out a way to deal with multicrew will use big ships too - maybe to their advantage, maybe not. It all depends on the pvp mechanics and people come up with.

 

Only because there is the possibility to build large ships and crew them, doesn't mean that they're viable in every situation. They should have their place for some situations ofc otherwise it wouldn't make much sense to have them in the first place.

 

But people need to stop thinking that they will be able to fly huge ships alone and that they can take on others alone. It's a MMO and as such, teamwork is (and should be) enforced

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RIP those who anti social but think they are the main character, who can make big org have to scare when hear their name ;).
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But who know maybe some lonewolf can do that, i will interesting to see if they once appear.

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4 hours ago, SaintShaun said:

Like you said, it's a game.  How many players really want to sit idle for hours in a ship?

I can actually see it working, in the sense that large multi-crew ships can sit at a space station waiting to be called into action for large scale conflicts.  But it's a tough balance to make, because the conflicts need to start with solo ships, and as long as 5 ships can match the firepower of a 5 crew ship, the 5 solo ships will always have a big advantage.

 

I suspect the more powerful and effective weapon systems to be only viable in bigger vessels due their large size and weight.

 

As far as idling goes,that's entirely up for the player's decisions to act upon and avoid at all costs.

Like everything else DU related  - good organization is the key factor. 

 

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Surely, it makes sense that:-

 

1) Large Ships (Interstellar Class) = Basically too strong (weapons and shields) for any smaller ships.

2) Medium Ships (Interplantary Class) = Basically need a number of these against the above and too strong for the next class even if lots of them.

3) Planetary Atmosphere Ships = Can't dent any of the above but need swarms and swarms of them to do anthing but can go into atmospheric gravity successfully.

 

Perhaps there will be a continuum here? But overall tech advancement difference can be like a cliff between classes?

 

So far from being "bored" different ship classes have their own battles to bear. Notably too: small single unit fighters can dock on larger ships ideally too (fuel conservation and jumping distances).

 

You probably want large ships docked and able to "beam me up Scotty" different crews if they're called into action? Different crews depending on the rosta... hence free time vs duty time.

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15 hours ago, SaintShaun said:

Like you said, it's a game.  How many players really want to sit idle for hours in a ship?

 

I will be heading out on exploration in DU once it goes live, no idea what we'll come across yet but it's going to be fun.. and yes, there will be a lot of sitting around searching for something. 

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14 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

I will be heading out on exploration in DU once it goes live, no idea what we'll come across yet but it's going to be fun.. and yes, there will be a lot of sitting around searching for something. 

I’d also point out that if you’re taking out a 30 man warship, it’s probably because you have a conflict in mind.  You don’t just stroll around with that kind of firepower.

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1 hour ago, blazemonger said:

 

I will be heading out on exploration in DU once it goes live, no idea what we'll come across yet but it's going to be fun.. and yes, there will be a lot of sitting around searching for something. 

 

As an idle passenger?  I can see transport.

 

I guess I can see large multi-crew ships working well as war/transport ships as people will always want to explore/mine varying worlds and would like a safe way to and from outposts.

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2 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

I will be heading out on exploration in DU once it goes live, no idea what we'll come across yet but it's going to be fun.. and yes, there will be a lot of sitting around searching for something. 

No one is talking about exploring game play. He was referencing something very different. This isn't relevant. 

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16 minutes ago, DylTheRipper13 said:

No one is talking about exploring game play. He was referencing something very different. This isn't relevant. 

It was pretty relevant to me.  Exploring for a worthy opponent and exploring for a worthy artifact are one in the same.

 

If you take out a 30 man warship, I imagine you have a conflict zone in mind.  If not, expect some pretty big wait times or start attacking everything you see if you’re itching for a fight.

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On 09/02/2018 at 2:22 AM, Hades said:

Seems like it’s already balanced to me.  More players, more firepower 

So, should one player-controlled turret have the same firepower as a single-seat fighter ?

 

And how can you predict the firepower of one-man fighters, they're custom-built, after all.

 

How many turrets should be "anti-fighter" weapons (i.e. flak guns), and how many should be heavy weapons (that will struggle to hit fast fighters) ?

 

Balancing it will be interesting...

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On 10/02/2018 at 1:31 AM, MookMcMook said:

Surely, it makes sense that:-

 

1) Large Ships (Interstellar Class) = Basically too strong (weapons and shields) for any smaller ships.

2) Medium Ships (Interplantary Class) = Basically need a number of these against the above and too strong for the next class even if lots of them.

3) Planetary Atmosphere Ships = Can't dent any of the above but need swarms and swarms of them to do anthing but can go into atmospheric gravity successfully.

 

Perhaps there will be a continuum here? But overall tech advancement difference can be like a cliff between classes?

 

So far from being "bored" different ship classes have their own battles to bear. Notably too: small single unit fighters can dock on larger ships ideally too (fuel conservation and jumping distances).

 

You probably want large ships docked and able to "beam me up Scotty" different crews if they're called into action? Different crews depending on the rosta... hence free time vs duty time.

This subject has been done to death in another thread. Ships will be ships and thats about as defined as its going to get in DU. Search it out if you want to contribute to it.

 

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16 hours ago, NanoDot said:

So, should one player-controlled turret have the same firepower as a single-seat fighter ?

 

And how can you predict the firepower of one-man fighters, they're custom-built, after all.

 

How many turrets should be "anti-fighter" weapons (i.e. flak guns), and how many should be heavy weapons (that will struggle to hit fast fighters) ?

 

Balancing it will be interesting...

I think the balancing is the same as every other space game in existence.  T1 lasers and turrets are equivalent.  As your ship increases in size/power supply you can accommodate higher tier turrets/lasers.  However, with a larger ship your captain is probably going to have other things to worry about than protecting his flank.  Better invest in some turrets for manual protection.

 

A small fighter wouldn’t be able to accommodate a cannon.  However, if someone puts a bare frame around a huge power supply?  I suppose they can use higher weaponry on their fighter... unfortunately a stray shot might make them explode, fashionably 

 

None of this is from NQ, just how I think it should be... if it works, why break it?

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9 hours ago, CoreVamore said:

This subject has been done to death in another thread. Ships will be ships and thats about as defined as its going to get in DU. Search it out if you want to contribute to it.

 

Poo-poo, clap-clap?! "Ships will be ships"... ah but of course, kind sir. ;)

 

Think it about it:-

 

Planets will have cadres of small ships buzzing around. Then there's options:-

 

1. Leave these around planets for planetary (planetside roles and defence)

2. Ferry a number of these via larger transport ships to other planets and systems

3. Build new ships at new planets and systems

4. Combination of all the above.

 

Remember the idea is to pose different problems at different ship scales:-

 

Local: Small ships

Immediate System: Medium Ships will suffice

Between Systems: Large ships required

 

So you have a bottleneck of sorts shifting ships around and a logistical problem to solve for defence and forces. Remember everyone and their dog will have a small ship. GROUPS will have to organize the medium and larger classes/categories at a higher scale of interaction and organization.

 

Finally, this is mere THEORYCRAFTING or generating IDEAS about how ships will play out: It's fun, it's exploratory, it may stimulate better ideas or induce people to come out with negatives about the idea which are also positive feedback to dicussion. It will be tempered more and more as the devs progress with development. If you want to link to previous ideas and say "they're the same or it's been covered" then please update the forums by doing so and we can successfully branch out our ideas further.

 

It should be realized there are a great many FANS of sci-fi who have FUN talking about sci-fi ideas in combination with DU. Working off that basis seems appropriate?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Hades said:

I think the balancing is the same as every other space game in existence.  T1 lasers and turrets are equivalent.  As your ship increases in size/power supply you can accommodate higher tier turrets/lasers.  However, with a larger ship your captain is probably going to have other things to worry about than protecting his flank.  Better invest in some turrets for manual protection.

 

A small fighter wouldn’t be able to accommodate a cannon.  However, if someone puts a bare frame around a huge power supply?  I suppose they can use higher weaponry on their fighter... unfortunately a stray shot might make them explode, fashionably 

 

None of this is from NQ, just how I think it should be... if it works, why break it?

Scanning info, ship size for rough estimates of fire-power, and of course scanning-blocking counter equipment. Ie knowing your enemy and how they can:-

 

* Shoot

* Shield

* Move

 

Is what it all comes down to. The bit missed out is:-

 

* Knowing

 

?

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4 hours ago, MookMcMook said:

Scanning info, ship size for rough estimates of fire-power, and of course scanning-blocking counter equipment. Ie knowing your enemy and how they can:-

 

* Shoot

* Shield

* Move

Great to point out but  I'm very curious to see if DU will have a decoy and countermeasure type system and if they do I'm sure these manned stations will be a great addition to the game play mechanics for spacecraft battles and more .

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17 hours ago, Hades said:

I think the balancing is the same as every other space game in existence.

Not quite, very few space games (any ?) require all larger ships to be multi-crewed.

 

DU is an MMO, so players will quickly calculate the most efficient way to deliver dps. If 5 players in 1-man ships potentially deal more destruction than 5 players manning turrets on a battleship, battleships will probably be a rare sight.

 

And we've yet to see how attractive the game play will be as a turret gunner on a multi-crew ship. Flying your own fighter sounds like a much more entertaining option...

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“most large ships in other games only need one person”.  Which I disagree with, but we probably play different games... and it’s irrelevant.

 

I answered most of that in the post.  Larger ships have to be multicrewed in DU due to “1 man = 1 gun”, right?  Well, larger ships can stick on a T5 turret since their power supply can support it.  

 

Unfortunately, the tiny frame of the fighter can only fit a T1 power supply and can only attach a T2 weapon if they sacrifice in some areas.  

 

All values hypothetical and not representative of the game by any means.  

 

It’s a really common system, not sure why NQ shouldn’t follow a similar pattern.

 

 

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, yamisniper said:

i would like to see how people are going to catch each other in space

Traps, waiting, and good intel is probably the best way.

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4 hours ago, NanoDot said:

Not quite, very few space games (any ?) require all larger ships to be multi-crewed.

 

DU is an MMO, so players will quickly calculate the most efficient way to deliver dps. If 5 players in 1-man ships potentially deal more destruction than 5 players manning turrets on a battleship, battleships will probably be a rare sight.

 

And we've yet to see how attractive the game play will be as a turret gunner on a multi-crew ship. Flying your own fighter sounds like a much more entertaining option...

Being a turret gunner on a multi-crew ship can be very fun (speaking from own experience), games such as Guns if Icarus Online and Blackwake pull this off very well.

 

And being an "idle" crew member can also be very fun, at first just looking at the oncoming enemy and enjoying the show until the first barrage hits the starboard side, then you scramble into frenzied action as the captain notifies the crew where the breach has been made. Turrets might have been disabled, one of the thrusters might have been destoryed and the hull have been breached exposing the reactor core. Time is of the essence, the rest of the crew depends on you and your fellow engineers to get the ship up and running again before the next volley can strike.

And I suppose boarding parties will also be a thing, so not only will you need gunners and engineers, but also marines.

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4 hours ago, NanoDot said:

Not quite, very few space games (any ?) require all larger ships to be multi-crewed.

 

DU is an MMO, so players will quickly calculate the most efficient way to deliver dps. If 5 players in 1-man ships potentially deal more destruction than 5 players manning turrets on a battleship, battleships will probably be a rare sight.

 

And we've yet to see how attractive the game play will be as a turret gunner on a multi-crew ship. Flying your own fighter sounds like a much more entertaining option...

You betcha ass Nanodot. This is the focus of focuses. How will it be fun for groups of players vs solo spaceships.

 

I'm hoping Group gameplay in ships can be diverse:-

 

* Gunner: Rail, Lazer, EMP, nuke

* Scanner

* Engines energy delegation and charging / steering (randomizing flight path to reduce hit chance etc).

* Navigation

* Marines (boarding/sabotaging): Space flight suits or that fuzzy teleportation trick (away team).

* Captain / comms

* Repair team

* Shields, Incog/reduce detection (non-visual range)

* Anti-missile devices

 

Scale up again:-

 

* Deploy drones: Each drone it's own console controller for eg. Range limited perhaps with some basic AI (lua coded!) if the connection is temporarily lost... (Thargoids anyone?)

* Deploy smaller ship pilots: Scouts and so on...

* Hyper-Jump / Star Gate

* Deploy decoys

 

And of course larger ships not only requiring proximate console use to be usable but also a lot more powerful in: Shields, Firepower and Movement power in Gs.

 

Of course why cannot all the above be on a single console in front of the single pilot? Well, scaling up power of spaceships (combat) with player numbers is quite cool potentially pvp dynamic. If you want pvp you have to cooperate and if you cooperate and are valuable you'll be paid to do useful things... (I'm guessing) like blow the ****! out of solo griefers.

 

How fun will it be? I think it will be pivotal to isolating planets which have dug-in opposition, then sending in the atmosphere atttack force eg smaller ships and ground constructs and soldiers (avatars) so maybe it will be very fun but not the only option for people eg several large ships to win the space battle then a single large ship only needed while the rest jump into smaller ships to take the offensive planetside etc, leaving a skeleton crew on board? Maybe a ton of offensive weapons going off in a fleet battle will pretty exciting as well as say 100 crew ship blowing up taking out more or less ~100 different players?

 

I love the vision of a ship on one side of a planet (larger ship) firing off it's payloads at numerous ships ways away on the other side (smaller ships) who are out-ranged for example. Out tech'd.

 

Naturally getting teams together is going to control frequency of these ships, but then if their value might just go way up on that count as well as power count. Perhaps such superior ships won't be messing around with random pvp but much more calculated in-game rational useage consequentially: Power projection and Star Gates are going to be pivotal here at the largest scale.

 

Will that picture be as fun as a solo fighter who can do all the nav of a smaller ship, shoot and shield but be a lot weaker individually and even collectively?

 

Of course planetside, smaller ships in and out of atmosphere that will have the size vs size match ups of swarms of such constructs han solo'ing each other?

 

Some games with a little ship teamwork:-

 

* Artemis Bridge Simulator (video game)

* Captain Sonar (boardgame)

 

I think players can look forward to both roles and types of ship, but when PvP starts to count in territory control in space, then teams in bigger ships are going to be out-gunning littler ships and be very valuable.

 

It feels to me like it should be the Swiss-Army Knife Principle: IF you want more things for it to do all on one "knife" (and here atst) then you gotta go BIGGER and BETTER TECH. A little swiss-army knife only has the small blade, little scissors, tweezers and the tooth pic ! It is cheaper though. But at that size it should have weaker tech on most counts.

 

I can imagine a large ship effectively being a spaceship carrier deploying 50+ smaller ships or something.

 

TL;DR: /Whoa spitting out a ton of random ideas here. Scusi a todos!

 

 

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On 2018. 02. 08. at 10:08 AM, Zamarus said:

I mean it's already stated by devs that you need a man for every cannon on a ship. If you smack on 30 of them on a ship you better have 30 men to man them 

If that would be true, it would be basically equal with a suicide from them.

 

I can't even imagine how can anyone even think about forcing a such bad mechanism. DO you think that you are the first one who thought about this idea? Hint you aren't, many games tired it before, AND it did failed every time.

In wow, there are multi person vehicles on battlegrounds, with a driver and turret(s) etc. They are much more powerful that players, yet the turrets are empty most of time.

Blizzard thinks that they reinvented the wheel and they attempted the one unit multiple player idea in their other games too, in hots for example with the hero chogall(one moves, other one fires). basically noone picks it....

 

Deal with it, the idea of multiple players working together on a same unit isn't working.

The reason is simple: it's boring, it only takes away fun while give nothing in exchange, you only get handicap this way but gain nothing. You also bound to other players, so you can't even just paly whenever you want.

 

lol, the combat in a scifi game is boring already, you want to take it to a entirely new level? Can you even imagine how f boring it would be to just stand before a single cannon, click on a enemy ship, and then push one button to fire? What do you think how many hours would it take to get bored of it? Hint: less than one...

Even if it would be not lock&hit game, but aimed, it would be still f boring (in wow there was encounter where some players controlled cannons, it was fun on the first run, and became a boring chore afterwards...)

 

There are no reason behind this handicap anyway. It wouldn't balance anything, it would only promote botting.

 

Also ROFL, even in the WW2 there was warships where AA turrets was remote controlled. It would be 100% legit not be allowed to use technology already available in the past century in a time, where you can build spaceships by hand, and travel in the universe...

 

Like the human is so critical where you can't even see your target with a human eyes as it will be km's away, but yeah sure someone needs to stand there to "aim" with them lol, or you mean that in the future the cannons will be loaded manually? what would you load into a leaser battery anyway?

 

 

In the first place there are exactly zero reason to limit big ships anyway. Every player have exactly same privileges. I think they not going to give admin rights away randomly, nor spawning materials for certain players, so if x player was available to build a big ship, then every other player also have exactly the same chance to build it, so where is the problem? You are lazy to do it and want to punish the others who actually put time into it?

Ofc big ships should be very expensive. Both to build, repair and to use.

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14 minutes ago, THEMADE said:

If that would be true, it would be basically equal with a suicide from them.

Disagree honestly. As it's not the sole attraction for the game by far.

 

Also remember that it probably has to do with targeting and no automation, maybe you can make a ship with multiple small guns but they are all firing where you aim. Maybe its about the tiers(size) of cannons. Either way if you want a big ship and big guns you need a crew with gunners. They've stated this and its because the game is formed for players cooperating in numbers. If you are solo you'll have to settle for a smaller ship, as easy as that and not unfair really.

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