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Molgor

consequences of non-regenerating planets and ressources

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The problem with that is if you want to build underground bases, you don't want your access tunnels regenerating on you and trapping you beneath or making your entrance impossible to find

Or setting up a multi day/week/month mining operation and finding your excavation regenerating.

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The problem with that is if you want to build underground bases, you don't want your access tunnels regenerating on you and trapping you beneath or making your entrance impossible to find 

 

 

I think this is where controlling land comes in.

 

If no one controls an area you can only mine there.  Which would be a temporary change.

 

But once you control an Area you can make permanent changes to the terrain.

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I think this is where controlling land comes in.

 

If no one controls an area you can only mine there. Which would be a temporary change.

 

But once you control an Area you can make permanent changes to the terrain.

Interesting.

But that still leaves us with the issue of big mining operations.

 

And it would exclude people from digging out hide aways without a TU. To restrict such things to only include people with a TU isnt really fair in my opinion.

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Or setting up a multi day/week/month mining operation and finding your excavation regenerating.

fairly certain that this is not the plan. TU's are slated to be a very difficult thing to construct, meaning most players will need to build a home or base without the protection of a TU. 

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fairly certain that this is not the plan. TU's are slated to be a very difficult thing to construct, meaning most players will need to build a home or base without the protection of a TU.

Yeap thats also what I was thinking.

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This aspect of the game I think will be really worked out after the Alpha, once they have the live environment with people mucking it up, they'll really be able to see how fast/often people drill/mine into planets and if it's too excessive then they will plan accordingly (hopefully). I think we won't really know the nitty gritty until the alpha is in testing.

For now, in my opinion, just leave it as non regenerative and we'll see what happens.

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This aspect of the game I think will be really worked out after the Alpha, once they have the live environment with people mucking it up, they'll really be able to see how fast/often people drill/mine into planets and if it's too excessive then they will plan accordingly (hopefully). I think we won't really know the nitty gritty until the alpha is in testing.

For now, in my opinion, just leave it as non regenerative and we'll see what happens.

They will probably have enough people playing during beta to have an idea as to what player behavior is going to be like at launch, especially if they have an open beta period for stress testing.

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Day one the starter area is going to look terrible just from people testing out the editor tools. It's going to be a real problem. It has been in every single "builder" game I have ever seen tbh. I actually just started a post about this very topic before I found this one.

 

Frankly, there's basically no way people are all going to be conscientious about keeping the planets looking aesthetically pleasing, that doesn't even take into consideration people who legitimately enjoy trashed landscapes. People just go the path of least resistance because we're all inherently lazy. Tearing stuff up and moving on rather than taking any time to repair the land, or heaven forbid being careful not to tear everything up in the first place, lol. 

 

The devs will certainly need to come up with some way to make sure it's not a problem, at the very least the starter planet and the ones closest to it. Otherwise before very long at all the new player experience is really going to suffer. The idea that you can always move further from the center if you want to find somewhere that looks nice is a bit short sighted. Sure, you can, if you're an established player with the resources to do so. New players don't have that ability though. They are left with the wastelands left to them by previous players.

 

On top of that, at some point people will just get too far apart and no longer interact with each other. You see that a ton as well. Even down to small ecosystems like a minecraft server. People move out really far from the center in order to find some security and a nice looking place to build. Soon everyone is so far apart it's too much trouble getting to each other anymore. In a game like DU, people are going to naturally stay closer to each other due to markets and trading. So more likely than moving really far out to live, they will colonize near the markets and then move out to mine, bringing the resources back to their more centrally located bases. This will create a large dead zone around the markets of fairly trashed planets. You'll then have to move even farther out to find resources and it just increases the time sink. I'm sure this is where warp gates will come into play, but really, depending on how that whole system works all you're doing is buying a temporary reprieve each time to make a gate. People will colonize near the gate for ease of travel and then lay waste to a ring around it.

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The idea that you can always move further from the center if you want to find somewhere that looks nice is a bit short sighted. Sure, you can, if you're an established player with the resources to do so. New players don't have that ability though. They are left with the wastelands left to them by previous players.

 

 

To balance that (keeping in mind that it is off course really hard to predict anything at this point), I can see established players or organisations ferrying new players out off the starting area/planet for a couple of reasons:

 

-New players, would be one of the most valuable resources for competitive organisations, and these would surely invest into a couple of recruiters and "space-buses" at spawn areas to snatch up new recruits. Depending on the population of the game, and the level off competition between factions, new players could be faced with a very large choice of organisations and frequent departures of ships to these destinations.

 

-For the same reason, as the game matures, and given the right game mechanics the starting planet's economy might develop to be centered on new players, with accomodation, jobs, storage, as well as organisations dedicated to the interstellar/interplanetary transport of new players once they've earned enough money to pay for the ticket, but not enough to pay for their own space/jump worthy space-craft.

 

-Some charitable people/organisations might help out new players by handing out starter ships, or organizing free transportation though I wouldn't count too much on it.

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To balance that (keeping in mind that it is off course really hard to predict anything at this point), I can see established players or organisations ferrying new players out off the starting area/planet for a couple of reasons:

 

-New players, would be one of the most valuable resources for competitive organisations, and these would surely invest into a couple of recruiters and "space-buses" at spawn areas to snatch up new recruits. Depending on the population of the game, and the level off competition between factions, new players could be faced with a very large choice of organisations and frequent departures of ships to these destinations.

 

-For the same reason, as the game matures, and given the right game mechanics the starting planet's economy might develop to be centered on new players, with accomodation, jobs, storage, as well as organisations dedicated to the interstellar/interplanetary transport of new players once they've earned enough money to pay for the ticket, but not enough to pay for their own space/jump worthy space-craft.

 

-Some charitable people/organisations might help out new players by handing out starter ships, or organizing free transportation though I wouldn't count too much on it.

While all of those are possible, and even probable, it's never a good idea to design a system that relies on player behavior to make it work out correctly. They need to design the game from the start with these issues in mind, and have a way to mitigate or remove them from the start. That way no matter what players decide to do or not do, the new players will always be ok. That's just a matter of the devs protecting their own interests. The new player experience is going to be vital for a game like this. Player retention is going to be vital. A game like this, with a fairly steep learning curve needs to have a good first hour or so. Ease the player in before dumping a bunch of heavy choices on them. Players will have a lot to figure out already. Not just game mechanics, but players will need to learn the current politics, expected behaviors, and everything else on top of it in order to get by in the game world. It's a known fact that most players are lost in the first few hours of their gameplay. It's vital those few hours be good enough to hook them, and again, the game needs to be designed from the start to do that, irregardless of how other players choose to play.

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While all of those are possible, and even probable, it's never a good idea to design a system that relies on player behavior to make it work out correctly. They need to design the game from the start with these issues in mind, and have a way to mitigate or remove them from the start. That way no matter what players decide to do or not do, the new players will always be ok. That's just a matter of the devs protecting their own interests. The new player experience is going to be vital for a game like this. Player retention is going to be vital. A game like this, with a fairly steep learning curve needs to have a good first hour or so. Ease the player in before dumping a bunch of heavy choices on them. Players will have a lot to figure out already. Not just game mechanics, but players will need to learn the current politics, expected behaviors, and everything else on top of it in order to get by in the game world. It's a known fact that most players are lost in the first few hours of their gameplay. It's vital those few hours be good enough to hook them, and again, the game needs to be designed from the start to do that, irregardless of how other players choose to play.

And there will be organizations that will provide new players the information needed to make those first tough choices and to teach the basics with player made tutorials. This will happen. It won't happen immediately (sorry new players at launch) but it will happen as soon as possible.

 

Kurock

CSYN Chief of Development

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And there will be organizations that will provide new players the information needed to make those first tough choices and to teach the basics with player made tutorials. This will happen. It won't happen immediately (sorry new players at launch) but it will happen as soon as possible.

 

Kurock

CSYN Chief of Development

Again, it's very bad to rely on players to create game mechanics to make other's experience in the game worthwhile. They need to have at least a baseline created beforehand. The new player experience needs to be handled by the game. Everything past that is based on player interaction.

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I agree with Arisilde. While there will likely be plenty of established groups working to help new players get into the game and get started, new players shouldn't be reliant on that. If someone wants to come into the game with a few of their friends a few years after launch and play without ever interacting (meaning things like joining an org, trading or other such actions) with other people, they should be able to. They should be able to, in some way, accrue resources with which they can build their own stuff and get out to where there are more resources. If they can't do that, many people will just quit no matter how many other player groups are their to "help" them. 

 

For this reason, I still think there needs to be some form of renewable resources or it is going to cause the expanding bubble of activity that discourages new players. Perhaps some sort of asteroids that have to be scanned down? Not enough to discourage expansion but enough that places will never be without resources.

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Personally i dont want resources or even holes in the ground to regenerate. It's all part of the story players will create. Keep in mind though that resources will be rare and common ones. As they already said the common ones will be very abundant and hard to dig completely on a planet. People will mine mostly specific holes for rare resources. Still it all depends on how resources are going to be spread over the planet, i dont think a planet will be uglified because of its size, but in that case will still be players fault, and part of the story.

Trees do not regenerate, but you'll be able to plant them probably in an expansion (jc said in a interview)

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Personally i dont want resources or even holes in the ground to regenerate. It's all part of the story players will create. Keep in mind though that resources will be rare and common ones. As they already said the common ones will be very abundant and hard to dig completely on a planet. People will mine mostly specific holes for rare resources. Still it all depends on how resources are going to be spread over the planet, i dont think a planet will be uglified because of its size, but in that case will still be players fault, and part of the story.

Trees do not regenerate, but you'll be able to plant them probably in an expansion (jc said in a interview)

 

Very true, but even with abundant resources they will eventually be depleted. That's fine for most planets, but it would cause problems on the starting planet as new players would be unable to get started in the game. If you have ever played on a large minecraft server, you will likely have seen that the resources surrounding the starting point quickly get depleted and new players must venture ever farther away to find what they need to get started. The main difference being that in minecraft people can just walk to a new area, whereas in DU if they can't build a ship to go somewhere else, they're stuck. That's why I propose either finding a way to add in a trickle (very small) of new resources or to give new players (after the game has been established for a while) some basic tools/materials with which to get started.

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It could be possible that to boost the economy of the game, common resources will be already in-place within the marketplace.

 

So selling stuff wouldn't just generate meaningless profit that couldn't be used to buy anything...

 

I think in the lore of the game so far, the Arkship comes with some very basic supplies or food.  The use of market NPC's at the start will be helpful to spread those resources out (even if their unlimited because they're so basic/common).

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For this reason, I still think there needs to be some form of renewable resources or it is going to cause the expanding bubble of activity that discourages new players. Perhaps some sort of asteroids that have to be scanned down? Not enough to discourage expansion but enough that places will never be without resources.

 

   This is not necessarily the case, in the real world for example ground resources in Europe are pretty much depleted, but it is still a main hub of activity as it has stable governments, high population, a lot of infrastructure, and can easily import what it needs raw material wise from abroad.

   If the right mechanics are in place, the same thing could arise in this game as well. As long as there is enough value in land and the infrastructure already built, and the cost of buying raw materials is not too high (depending on the ease of ferying materials from the ressource rich places to the resource depleted ones), people are not going to abandon depleted places.

   If all the mechanics are well designed, having depletable resources could create different places specialized in producing different things, which besides making the game world more interesting would be a great thing for trade gameplay, as it will be profitable for merchants to ferry ressources from the fringes to the core, and on the return trip to bring back manufactured stuff like ships, weapons, components, food or whatever is in need on the fringes due to the lack of efficient manufacturing/farming there.

   And more trade would mean more piracy, which in turn will provide a need of policing/protection of trade routes by government or mercenary forces, and the list goes on. 

 

   All this to say that places can still be important hubs of activity even after the depletion of their resources, if the gameplay mechanics are done right. And to be done right, the mechanics need to ensure that the cost of importing raw materials is not too high and that there are big incentives for people living in depleted areas to not move out.

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That's why I propose either finding a way to add in a trickle (very small) of new resources or to give new players (after the game has been established for a while) some basic tools/materials with which to get started.

 

I would propose similar... but, this would take a major agreement on all parties involved, which probably wouldn't happen...

 

The starter planet should almost be a player designated safe zone itself. Yes, there will be mining, and eventual resource depletion, but if everyone is careful, then it keeps an area that is a "Neutral Zone." Maybe a shared mining operation that all organizations are part of to have a shared pool for newcomers on the initial planet. So, growth is very carefully monitored only on the starter planet (or the hemisphere, even just the quadrant, the Ark ship is in). This would give new players down the road a way to get off the starter planet, by either purchasing the resources "cheap,"[1] or digging them out of that shared mining location(s) themselves, or having a common area to find work under any of the organizations.

 

Once you're out of the area players have fenced off, you're on your own, and good luck. But, it would give late comers a way to start building up their resources without needing to worry about who's toes their stepping on, or if the resources are depleted, etc... because the people who have been around longer are trying to keep that area usable for the newer folks that show up.

 

If there isn't a way implemented in game by NQ, then players purposefully keeping it useful is the only way I see it staying sustainable.

 

I'm not saying it should be completely safe, or that there couldn't be any political maneuvering for better standing, etc... just that it's a player designated neutral area for the express purpose as a launching point for the future. Even if attempting to keep the area sustainable fell through, having an area that has emerged where all organizations can meet in relative safety, have a large market area, a "safe" area for new arrivals, etc... could be worth the attempt for most organizations to see it through.

 

-M

 

[1] - I say "cheap," as if there's multiple organizations all adding to the same pool, the overall cost would be lowered dramatically. 

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   This is not necessarily the case, in the real world for example ground resources in Europe are pretty much depleted, but it is still a main hub of activity as it has stable governments, high population, a lot of infrastructure, and can easily import what it needs raw material wise from abroad.

   If the right mechanics are in place, the same thing could arise in this game as well. As long as there is enough value in land and the infrastructure already built, and the cost of buying raw materials is not too high (depending on the ease of ferying materials from the ressource rich places to the resource depleted ones), people are not going to abandon depleted places.

   If all the mechanics are well designed, having depletable resources could create different places specialized in producing different things, which besides making the game world more interesting would be a great thing for trade gameplay, as it will be profitable for merchants to ferry ressources from the fringes to the core, and on the return trip to bring back manufactured stuff like ships, weapons, components, food or whatever is in need on the fringes due to the lack of efficient manufacturing/farming there.

   And more trade would mean more piracy, which in turn will provide a need of policing/protection of trade routes by government or mercenary forces, and the list goes on. 

 

   All this to say that places can still be important hubs of activity even after the depletion of their resources, if the gameplay mechanics are done right. And to be done right, the mechanics need to ensure that the cost of importing raw materials is not too high and that there are big incentives for people living in depleted areas to not move out.

 

You are right, although I think there are a few key differences between the game and the real world. In the real world, we are constrained to a single planet and as such the maximum distance that resources must be moved is limited. In DU, the potential distance is unbounded, and will continue to expand indefinitely. We don't yet know much about the exact nature of hauling stuff, but it will cost something, even if it's just time. So at some point, the price will become too great to justify living in depleted regions. Also, in the real world, there is a conservation of material while in the game there will be a gradual loss of material which will simply vanish into thin air by being destroyed. These things mean that eventually all resources will have to be imported from farther and farther away, with ever rising prices.

 

You are right that the central areas will remain important areas for a long time, but what about 5 years after launch? Or 10? Even if those areas are still hubs at that point, prices will be very high. With no resources in close proximity, new players will have no way to earn the money to buy the goods they need unless they join an organization or are dependent of charity. Neither of those options are reliable enough to stake the new player experience on. That's why I think that there should be some form of basic safety net, at least in the long run, that allows for new players to have a chance to get on their feet. Perhaps not the asteroids I had suggested, but something else. Maybe there will be other arks on the periphery that people can spawn at in later years? I'm not sure.

 

Anyways, like you said, the core will be a perfectly viable place for at least a few years.

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You are right, although I think there are a few key differences between the game and the real world. In the real world, we are constrained to a single planet and as such the maximum distance that resources must be moved is limited. In DU, the potential distance is unbounded, and will continue to expand indefinitely. We don't yet know much about the exact nature of hauling stuff, but it will cost something, even if it's just time. So at some point, the price will become too great to justify living in depleted regions. Also, in the real world, there is a conservation of material while in the game there will be a gradual loss of material which will simply vanish into thin air by being destroyed. These things mean that eventually all resources will have to be imported from farther and farther away, with ever rising prices.

 

You are right that the central areas will remain important areas for a long time, but what about 5 years after launch? Or 10? Even if those areas are still hubs at that point, prices will be very high. With no resources in close proximity, new players will have no way to earn the money to buy the goods they need unless they join an organization or are dependent of charity. Neither of those options are reliable enough to stake the new player experience on. That's why I think that there should be some form of basic safety net, at least in the long run, that allows for new players to have a chance to get on their feet. Perhaps not the asteroids I had suggested, but something else. Maybe there will be other arks on the periphery that people can spawn at in later years? I'm not sure.

 

Anyways, like you said, the core will be a perfectly viable place for at least a few years.

There's going to be a large city built around the arkship just by virtue of it being a completely safe zone.  All the major organizations will keep stockpiles, R&D and civilian manufacturing facilities there, probably in skyscrapers.  Since that is where all new players spawn, that's where you'll have the main recruiting centers.  It may be that the rest of the planet is mined out but maybe by that time there'll be farming.  Maybe the planet will be covered in solar cells or fusion plants to power the city.  Those would have to be defended.  And since it will be the ultimte respawn center, organizations will want to have outposts supporting travel from the arkship city to their own power centers.  Mining will certainly move from the center outward but there will still be economic, energy collecting and military activity in the core worlds. 

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There's going to be a large city built around the arkship just by virtue of it being a completely safe zone.  All the major organizations will keep stockpiles, R&D and civilian manufacturing facilities there, probably in skyscrapers.  Since that is where all new players spawn, that's where you'll have the main recruiting centers.  It may be that the rest of the planet is mined out but maybe by that time there'll be farming.  Maybe the planet will be covered in solar cells or fusion plants to power the city.  Those would have to be defended.  And since it will be the ultimte respawn center, organizations will want to have outposts supporting travel from the arkship city to their own power centers.  Mining will certainly move from the center outward but there will still be economic, energy collecting and military activity in the core worlds. 

 

I guess a lot of it is dependent on the mechanics that are added over time to the game. I'm sure you're right that there will be recruiting centers there forever. Other than that, I guess we will just have to wait and see. Any issues like those I predict would happen many years down the road from now, so I guess it is pointless to worry about it now.

 

I'm going to make a mental note to come back to this topic in 2023.

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