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Molgor

consequences of non-regenerating planets and ressources

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I seem to have seen a post about the re-planting of trees without this being done.

 

I myself would like to do my underground base but there will always be an exit door or relief so no risk of burial.

 

It is true that the question of the depletion of resources is interesting ...
Maybe (and that would be a pity) he reboot the server or planets (a complete shave) ...

 

We expect the new

 

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I don't like the argument of "Planets are really big". There will be areas of ore with useful deposits which will be limited. Assuming a density of 100 ppm as "viable ore concentrations", which is generous for copper according to University of Arizona 

as they labeled areas with above 200 ppm copper as ore deposits.

 

Since according to Wolfram Mathematica(attribution at bottom)

the average copper concentration in Earth's crust is 0.0068%, or 68 ppm, and we will assume that the same applies for Alioth. Since they have stated that there will be a max dig limit, lets just say 5 km deep, since that is also Earth's crust thickness under the oceans. So, the volume of the crust will be around 245,571 km^3 and there would be approx. 16.7 km^3 of copper.  But here is the problem. We are only considering "viable ore concentrations" as useful for obvious reasons. Presumably, areas with lower ore concentrations will have areas of higher ppm in it, so lets just assume that the average viable ore deposite's concentration is 200 ppm, and half of the ore is in said viable deposits. Then, only around 8.5 km^3 of copper will be in economic access, but since the ore only has a concentration of 200 ppm, 0.02%, or 5000:1 dirt/rock to copper ratio. So, multiplying 8.5 km^3 by 5000, we get 42,500 km^3 of ore that will have to be dug through.

 

The conclusion is that at realistic ore concentrations, don't even try. Why did I even waste my time on this? You can plug in different ore concentrations with this.

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1 hour ago, 0something0 said:

I don't like the argument of "Planets are really big". There will be areas of ore with useful deposits which will be limited. Assuming a density of 100 ppm as "viable ore concentrations", which is generous for copper according to University of Arizona 

as they labeled areas with above 200 ppm copper as ore deposits.

 

Since according to Wolfram Mathematica(attribution at bottom)

the average copper concentration in Earth's crust is 0.0068%, or 68 ppm, and we will assume that the same applies for Alioth. Since they have stated that there will be a max dig limit, lets just say 5 km deep, since that is also Earth's crust thickness under the oceans. So, the volume of the crust will be around 245,571 km^3 and there would be approx. 16.7 km^3 of copper.  But here is the problem. We are only considering "viable ore concentrations" as useful for obvious reasons. Presumably, areas with lower ore concentrations will have areas of higher ppm in it, so lets just assume that the average viable ore deposite's concentration is 200 ppm, and half of the ore is in said viable deposits. Then, only around 8.5 km^3 of copper will be in economic access, but since the ore only has a concentration of 200 ppm, 0.02%, or 5000:1 dirt/rock to copper ratio. So, multiplying 8.5 km^3 by 5000, we get 42,500 km^3 of ore that will have to be dug through.

 

The conclusion is that at realistic ore concentrations, don't even try. Why did I even waste my time on this? You can plug in different ore concentrations with this.

You seem like seriously too much, it just a game, virtual world dude. I agree it it must be real as much as possible but in the end it still a game and NQ not the mother natural who have mighty and can apply logic + world law of real life into game. IT has it limited. Also there will be more new ore which not have in real life inside the game, which the game just fiction , virtual game. Dont be so serious.

Also planet dont have lava, they will fill with full of dirt, resource and thing. So please dont put too much hope about "real" about this game, this is it limit or no? But it still in "PRE-ALPHA" stage after all, who know maybe there will be more mechanism in the game when full release.

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whenever someone on the internet says "I did the math", actual math-junkies come out the woodwork and will look at it with a microscope.

 

I think the conclusion of this thread would be that despite finite resources, we don't have to worry that the planet is going to run dry of resources anytime soon.

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I was going to make a post about energy as a crucial variable. That can wait however since the validity of this thread depends on the maths checking out. This is what I found:

 

The first figure this thread gave me was the surface area of a planet; 50 862 km2. Note that I am avoiding both points and comma’s here and that I will write down integers only, even though I did the calculations up untill several digits after the comma.

 

I converted the 50 862 km2 surface area (PA) into a radius using this formula:

 

PA = 4R2 Substituting PA for 50 862 km2 finds:

 

50 862 km2 = 4piR

Apparently this forum is unable to handle the Word symbol for pi)

12 716 km2 = piR2

4 048 km2 = R2

64 km = R

 

That means this planet would have a radius of 64 km, 63,62 km actually, very close to the 65 km number I have seen before and therefore very useful to work with.

 

Next, I converted this radius into a planetary volume (PV) using the following formula:

 

PV = 4/3piR3  Inserting R = 63,62 km I found:

 

PV = 4/3pi 257 510 km3

PV = 4/3 808 968 km3

PV = 1 078 625 km3

 

Finally, I took the excavation rate (ER) from the Twitter message; 56 m3/s to figure out how many seconds it would take for one person to dig up this entire planet:

 

ER = 56 m3/s = 0,000 000 056 km3/s

 

PV / ER  = 1 078 625 km3 / 0,000 000 056 km3/s = 19 261 155 654 102 s.

 

This huge number equals to:

 

222 930 042 days (24 hours) or

 

610 767 years for one person to dig up an entire planet.

 

1000 pleople would thus take 611 years and if they do so in 8 hours per day instead of 24, multiply by 3 to get:

 

1 832 years for the whole planet.

 

That would mean that moving 1 % of this planetary volume would indeed take 1000 people about 18,32 years. So this number matches the Twitter post closely, probably a spot on if a 65 km radius is taken instead.

 

I am reluctant however to consider planetary bodies invioable to high rate strip mining or obvious attempt by players to vandalize planets. That 1% of planetary volume still acounts for more than 10 cubic kilometers of matter to be dumped somewhere. Its because of that that the amount of energy required to mine resources and the varying rate of return per unit of energy may bet he crucial variable in further adressing the effect of mining on planetary integrity and resource limits.

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2 hours ago, Molybdane said:

1 832 years for the whole planet. 

Cool stuff man. So if 1832 years is required for 1000 people. Then it means it would require one million players to do it in 1.8 years? That's pretty huge

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I want to add to the discussion of resource extraction by explaining what the effect of energy costs could be.

 

The premise is simple, mining takes energy. If players must make a comparison between the amount of energy spent on mining (in some kind of universal credit) tot he value in credits of the resources gained, and that balance doesn’t turn out well, the resource doesn’t get mined.

 

Thus, energy costs add room for several aspects of mining economics:

 

First of all, mining is no longer free. This will limit the problem of areas or planets being strip-mined; it has to be worthwile.

 

Second, it adds tot he economic balance of the game. As resources become scarce, prices will rise and mining becomes more profitable. This is easy enough for players to understand.

 

Moving along, mining itself can be made more complicated, or taking a bit more thinking than pointing some kind of harvesting beam anywhere. Different deposits could have different energy costs to recover. A deposit deeper underground could require more energy too. Add in the aforementioned option of diluting or contaminating your ores and mining becomes something more exiting altogether.

 

Dilution refers in this case to the concentration of valuable ore  per cubic  metre, contamination means the presence of undesirable or unexpected ores in otherwise valuabe deposits. Getting some nickel-contaminated iron could be workable for you if you know how to separate the ores.

 

It now becomes worthwile to specialize in mining and more apparent how to do so. You’d need the ability to mine at a lower energy cost than the competition, or be able to do so in areas where other players can’t, or be able to work with contaminated and/or diluted ores.

 

Finally, a consequence of this system is that there’d be an economic resource geography of sorts. By this I mean that virgin area’s get surface mined (costs little energy) first. Later on when players end up starved after the quick resource dump made by surface-mining players, more experienced miners can move in to make the investments necessary in profitably recovering deeper layers of ore.

 

Once this golden age of resource gathering has past, truly specialized players with exceptional abilities can gather the few valuable depositis remaining.

 

 

Adding in energy costs in general could have other consequences as well. Resources could get transported and sold where they can be converted into useful materials where the energy costs are lowest, necessitating transport.

 

Also, energy is necessary to recycle waste, be it broken up material or oxidized fuel.

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On 1/27/2018 at 12:05 PM, Molybdane said:

That would mean that moving 1 % of this planetary volume would indeed take 1000 people about 18,32 years.

The above assumes a 65km radius planet, I believe. While assuming this calc is correct, it still means that some 10 % of the surface could be lowered by 300m or so in under 2 years by 1000 people.

My first concern is with the area around the starting area and the depletion of resources and the look of the place there after a short while. Without any regeneration it will quickly become a dump AND a depleted area for newcomers I feel.

 

I strongly believe that the starter area and surroundings will have to be 'managed' in some way that involves 'regeneration'. There could be the alternative of the original mothership moving around either slowly and continuously or in periodic jumps to fresher places on the planet, but if devs go for permanent placement of the safe starter area, then I would want them to consider regen.

 

At a simple level it could just be quarries and forests etc, depending on resourse needs, which throw people out every 24 hrs and then regenerate. There could even be procedures for who has (or still has) access to such areas as skills develop etc. Players may thus need to 'move on' from basic resource gathering at least in the beginner area. 

 

I agree with earlier comments that not absolutely everything sould be player-driven. Some structures, opportunities and constraints should be built in by devs for at least the area(s) where new players meet the game.

 

(Hello mods - first post here. Thank you for reading and hopefully approving :) )

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35 minutes ago, dualism said:

 

I strongly believe that the starter area and surroundings will have to be 'managed' in some way that involves 'regeneration'. There could be the alternative of the original mothership moving around either slowly and continuously or in periodic jumps to fresher places on the planet, but if devs go for permanent placement of the safe starter area, then I would want them to consider regen

In claimed ASA mining and terraforming is regulated by RDMS. 

In unclaimed ASA everyone can mine and terraform. 

 

So orgs will claim land around the ark and die whatever they do - no one but them can do anything there. 

In unclaimed areas it's up to players to fill holes or clear statues of dirt. Want your safezone to look nice? Claim many territories yourself or work for it. 

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Thanks for the reply.

59 minutes ago, Lethys said:

So orgs will claim land around the ark and die whatever they do

was that a typo with 'die' - or what do you mean?

Some of the worries in this thread are about depletion and the way areas will look and not be attractive to new players. Have you got any links to dev posts on the size and scope of a starter safe zone run by the 'arkship'? Outside this, will there be areas which cannot be claimed, or will orgs form rings around the starting area and try to attract new players as quickly as possible?

If no resources are available to new players within a certain range after a short amount of time, then new players will be forced to sign up to an org without having learnt much first.

I guess it comes down to what pathways devs design in for individual freedom for newcomers whenever they may join. The consequences of non-regeneration will surely never be more important than around the starting area, so the question is about how much the issue is minimised there, and then whether or not this is carried over to other areas at all.

 

One solution could be to provide each new player with sustainable and safe transportation at a range that minimises resource issues for them and enables them to get to isolated areas reasonably quickly at game start if they choose to be either alone or set up fairly small groups. Things will very much tie into each other quickly here, which is why I wanted to start off on a selected question and see what happens.

I believe the topic of regeneration is one key area for how new players will cope/succeed early on and will influence retention.

 

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1 hour ago, dualism said:

Thanks for the reply.

was that a typo with 'die' - or what do you mean?

Some of the worries in this thread are about depletion and the way areas will look and not be attractive to new players. Have you got any links to dev posts on the size and scope of a starter safe zone run by the 'arkship'? Outside this, will there be areas which cannot be claimed, or will orgs form rings around the starting area and try to attract new players as quickly as possible?

If no resources are available to new players within a certain range after a short amount of time, then new players will be forced to sign up to an org without having learnt much first.

I guess it comes down to what pathways devs design in for individual freedom for newcomers whenever they may join. The consequences of non-regeneration will surely never be more important than around the starting area, so the question is about how much the issue is minimised there, and then whether or not this is carried over to other areas at all.

 

One solution could be to provide each new player with sustainable and safe transportation at a range that minimises resource issues for them and enables them to get to isolated areas reasonably quickly at game start if they choose to be either alone or set up fairly small groups. Things will very much tie into each other quickly here, which is why I wanted to start off on a selected question and see what happens.

I believe the topic of regeneration is one key area for how new players will cope/succeed early on and will influence retention.

 

http://dualthegame.com/en/news/2018/01/30/our-toughts-on-territory-protection-mechanics/

 

Was a typo....

 

There will be basic resources inside those safezones, but No rare ones. Orgs might Set Up bases, cities or whatever near the ark to recruit and build a market there (earn quanta). 

 

Territory claim units will be a group effort so I don't expect the arkzone being claimed immediatly. Also, those resource veins will be vast (as there are only the basic ones there) and there are thousands of tiles. So i doubt a new player runs out of mineable resources. 

 

Outside the safezones there is unclaimed territory and everyone can claim it. And kill you, as it's PvP Territory. 

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3 hours ago, dualism said:

If no resources are available to new players within a certain range after a short amount of time, then new players will be forced to sign up to an org without having learnt much first.

Well like Lethys said: safe zone will be vast and claim unit will cost too much to build one.

 

But i dont think sign for joining org at begining is bad thing. I personaly think that it might be best way for newbie. Org provide them safe, food, knowledge, experience, job and exchange you work for them. And after a time when you get used to the game UI and mechanic you can keep working for them or quit and do what ever you want. I dont say i agree force newbie into one way but you know, something might better than you think. Of course who want solo still can be, it still freedom but that you have to got some knowledge about the game first then you can do it.

 

After all newbie is the most important resource, the back bone of the entire DU.

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Yes, maybe joining one of many groups that will want to invite you could indeed be good, but will it in effect be essential for beginners? This obviously relates to what will be possible without joining a group, of which resource availability will be a biggie.

 

Ok, I read the Arkship Secure Areas will only have low value resources. I still assume that unclaimed territories in ASAs will have a lot of bulk mining going on, though, mainly because the value will also presumably be low but volumes required for building etc will be quite high.

One associated problem I have is with the continued high activity in ASAs and close by beyond. It is said that death will result in respawn at the ASA without your items and mats (left at point where you died and can be looted). The need to (re)stock will not just apply to newbies, but thus also to anyone who dies. Even if groups have common stocks for members to reequip from, the mats will need to come from somewhere - and close to base will presumably be much more efficient, both inside and out of the ASA.

This is why I believe that the ASA should be an exception if the basic idea is to have no regen systems - and there could still be problems with medium level material landscapes close by. It does depend on how much people keep killing each other over resources I guess, as it will effect where the most dangerous zones for mining are. And it will depend on the cost to kill in PvP as well -and whether you can shoot from moving vehicles or whatever (i.e. the chance to escape a battle by fleeing...). They are linked dev opportunities for maybe lowering a devastation of a landscape in highly visited areas?

 

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2 hours ago, dualism said:

Yes, maybe joining one of many groups that will want to invite you could indeed be good, but will it in effect be essential for beginners? This obviously relates to what will be possible without joining a group, of which resource availability will be a biggie.

 

Ok, I read the Arkship Secure Areas will only have low value resources. I still assume that unclaimed territories in ASAs will have a lot of bulk mining going on, though, mainly because the value will also presumably be low but volumes required for building etc will be quite high.

One associated problem I have is with the continued high activity in ASAs and close by beyond. It is said that death will result in respawn at the ASA without your items and mats (left at point where you died and can be looted). The need to (re)stock will not just apply to newbies, but thus also to anyone who dies. Even if groups have common stocks for members to reequip from, the mats will need to come from somewhere - and close to base will presumably be much more efficient, both inside and out of the ASA.

This is why I believe that the ASA should be an exception if the basic idea is to have no regen systems - and there could still be problems with medium level material landscapes close by. It does depend on how much people keep killing each other over resources I guess, as it will effect where the most dangerous zones for mining are. And it will depend on the cost to kill in PvP as well -and whether you can shoot from moving vehicles or whatever (i.e. the chance to escape a battle by fleeing...). They are linked dev opportunities for maybe lowering a devastation of a landscape in highly visited areas?

 

"Medium level material" won't be found near ASA/MSA. Rare ores will only be found far away, to prevent people from farming those materials from safety.

 

And again: even If ppl do some stupid stuff in such zones (dig holes, build cubes of dirt, whatever) then it's up to players to regenerate the terrain. 

 

Maybe there will be some gentle degeneration but that's far away

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Just a small addition to all the good answers.

 

There should be no regeneration of ores, dirt should not be deleteble and plants should be able to regrow. And all this for e few reasons but mostly this: In reality nothing regenerates but most forms of plant life. The best reason to move from the start planet is to deplete it from every thing. Probably when the planet is depleted they will choose another starting planet for the new players. But to help people with a need to move into space, dont regenerate, create a need, and dont destroy waste. There are always people who are willing to recycle and regenerate....there is the word...old materials into new ones and make a whole economy of that alone. Waste management will be the most lucreative business in year two? three?. That should be the big picture. No easy gains, else they could also donate every player alot of materials every month in the ingame mail system.  Same should go for buildings, give them an owner, and a timeframe after which ownership is automatically ended. and after that you can take it or demolish it or recycle it.  That should be the idea, that will boost economy and choises people need to make.

 

Aaron

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13 hours ago, Aaron_Cain said:

Same should go for buildings, give them an owner, and a timeframe after which ownership is automatically ended. and after that you can take it or demolish it or recycle it.  That should be the idea, that will boost economy and choises people need to make.

 

Aaron

Players make the buildings... i would rage quit if the game ended my ownership of any of my constructs while i was actively paying for my subscription. That would be a horrible game mechanic.

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27 minutes ago, CoreVamore said:

Players make the buildings... i would rage quit if the game ended my ownership of any of my constructs while i was actively paying for my subscription. That would be a horrible game mechanic.

Yeah it broke but i think Aaron have idea that construct which abandon should be able to salvage into raw material.

Well @Aaron_Cain We got the "De-Own" system which NQ explain that if a player inactive for too long, they will send warning email ( a lot of them ) to the player before "de-own" active. After that the building official abandon and you can salvage it or keep it as your new house who know =]]/

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Ah ok, I am not promoting to destroy constructs but i think that in DU no resources should indeed be "destroyed" I meant that the game should keep the mass in-game, that is the best way to keep the inner planets (starter planets) most viable in the long run. Also im not for active property kisking, but i know from other games that persons can claim alot of land and then never come visit it again, just to sell. It would be best to have something to deal with that, else you will endup with a dead safezone with only alot of selling signs. 

 

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3 hours ago, Aaron_Cain said:

Also im not for active property kisking, but i know from other games that persons can claim alot of land and then never come visit it again, just to sell. It would be best to have something to deal with that, else you will endup with a dead safezone with only alot of selling signs

dont worry, every claim title will have maintain cost so they cant just claim and let it abandon ( maintain for Claim Territory Unit ).

 

But the chance for them to claim a lot of ' low value resource land ' is low and disadvantage in long term.So basically most big org just claim enough land in Safe Zone for their city, base, ...

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I'm pretty new here, so I don't know what is considered taking a thread off-topic, but I find I am often drawn to thinking about the consequencies of consequencies.

In this particular case it is the consequencies of death and players presumably returning time and time again to the arkship area, even after resurection nodes begin to appear later on. What I don't know is how much death will set a player back and will mean "scratching the surface" all over again for low value materials. Even if there is some kind of common org storage room for quickly replacing lost stuff, will masses of low value materials be required to sustain re-equipping, or will blueprints not use anything that can be depleted from the ark territory and close by?

My imagination says that death may keep all/most of your skills (I dunno) , but what about resources? Basically, what will a ressurected avatar's inventory look like, empty, a percentage of what it had on death, or certain minimum volumes of stuff if the avatar had some?

Sorry for not being able to find out this myself as I have no access (but want it!). However, my expectation is that the death mechanics (among others) could have a large effect on depletions. After all, there is a big difference between a chosen 'destructive' playstyle by a few and necessity for pretty much everybody lots of the time...

Also as an aside: will 'dirt' also have to come from somewhere to fill in holes, and will it restrict deaper mining if others have to dig through it again first? Thanks :)

 

edit: I've seen some discussion about whether the subscription tokens (I forget the name) should be lootable or not, which ties in in some way to what money or valueables avatars retain after death, which affects their ability to 'get back out there' without using up local resources... again the consequencies of a game mechanic on this thread's topic of 'local' depletions.

Edited by dualism
additional point made

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52 minutes ago, dualism said:

Basically, what will a ressurected avatar's inventory look like, empty, a percentage of what it had on death, or certain minimum volumes of stuff if the avatar had some?

Empty inventory when you die, except you keep all quanta stored in you.

 

There's a loot mechanic planned, similar to eve: some stuff on your body will be destroyed, some dropped. Your teammates can loot you (or an enemy ofc) and give the stuff back to you when you meetup again.

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https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/12700-devblog-feedback-our-thoughts-on-territory-protection-mechanics/&do=findComment&comment=77920

On 2/2/2018 at 11:34 AM, NQ-Nyzaltar said:

- There will be MSA only on moons decided by Novaquark, nowhere else.
- If a moon has a MSA, it will cover the whole moon (unlike ASA, which will cover only a part of the planet where it's located).
- No, "Sanctuary tile" can't be taken by military means, just like territories in an ASA.
- Moons with a MSA will be always near a planet having an ASA (there might be reasons for that reccuring "coincidence") so only near no to low value resources, nowhere near high value resources.

I'm beginning to get a picture here - and thanks Lethys too for answers. The above means that the entire planet with ASA only has low value resources - your basic car and sports car example lower down suggests that space flight will be possible from low value resources, but very very basic. This leads me to believe that mining in unclaimed territory of an ASA will be very high - and possibly conveniently allowed for members of groups with territory unit(s) near to the resurrection point, meaning mining will be high there too to simply save time. I am unsure of any benefit of the rest of the ASA planet unless a distinction is made between low value and at least some medium value resources in the unprotected areas of an ASA planet.

Maybe readers such as myself are over-estimating the volumes of what we will need to grind/mine from an ASA planet. Maybe the energy content of fuel is set to be massive and a cubic metre of digging will set anybody up to leave the planet with good fuel range - I dunno. Maybe people building stuff will also be using little more than dirt as well, so the 'volume' of a planet and resources cannot really be depleted by activity, merely moved from holes to mountains at the very most extreme or turned into 'structures'? :)

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1 hour ago, dualism said:

https://board.dualthegame.com/index.php?/topic/12700-devblog-feedback-our-thoughts-on-territory-protection-mechanics/&do=findComment&comment=77920

 

I'm beginning to get a picture here - and thanks Lethys too for answers. The above means that the entire planet with ASA only has low value resources - your basic car and sports car example lower down suggests that space flight will be possible from low value resources, but very very basic. This leads me to believe that mining in unclaimed territory of an ASA will be very high - and possibly conveniently allowed for members of groups with territory unit(s) near to the resurrection point, meaning mining will be high there too to simply save time. I am unsure of any benefit of the rest of the ASA planet unless a distinction is made between low value and at least some medium value resources in the unprotected areas of an ASA planet.

Maybe readers such as myself are over-estimating the volumes of what we will need to grind/mine from an ASA planet. Maybe the energy content of fuel is set to be massive and a cubic metre of digging will set anybody up to leave the planet with good fuel range - I dunno. Maybe people building stuff will also be using little more than dirt as well, so the 'volume' of a planet and resources cannot really be depleted by activity, merely moved from holes to mountains at the very most extreme or turned into 'structures'? :)

Just keep in mind that there is no planet which consists only of ASA. There are only moons Made of MSA - since you quoted nyzaltar correctly I assume it's just a typo. Or i just misunderstood your post as I'm pretty tired lol.

 

Anyway I think this system is quite fair to everyone and in regards to resources it depends on production mechanics. That system still is in development and we just don't know yet If you need 1000m3 or only 10m3 of different ores to build a ship, House, elements or whatever. In combination with their procedural resource generation this will determine how fast certain resources will be depleted. And tbh: they're not stupid. DU is built as a MMO with thousands of players, they will balance it so that a newbro who joins 5years after release will either find enough resources in alioth itself or may be able to start (or one time teleport in case He misclicked and would be left stranded) on another ASA capable planet.

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Hi - I meant that the ASA parts of a planet will see high mining activity but there may be little 'use' for the rest of the surface as it will be pvp but not have better resources unless there is at least 'medium' value (or not absolutuely basic low level) stuff there.

This would be worse for depletion of the ASA even if NQ opens up a new 'new arrival' ASA planet after whatever period of time because people would still be active in the ASA cities and keep resurrecting there after death 'locally' I would imagine.

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