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Ask Aphelia Episode #9 - Schematics Edition Discussion Thread


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9 hours ago, PlumYeti said:

The numbers from the video show 10 Warp cells in 3 hours. Per slot.. so max a single player can do is 400 Warp cells in a day. Not including Pures if we need them. 

Single player - yes. But you forget about all other people. They can put warp cell schematics (or any other schems) to the market for some quanta. And I am sure, they will! So, you will not be limited in 400 cells in a day. Also, there will be schematics related skills, that will double the possible output. So... market should play very significant role in obtaining schems!

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I would have liked to see the industrial schematic system made quite simple:

A kind of skills system where you have to unlock the "Schematics" in the menu. Once learned, these are valid forever. accordingly, these then cost quanta to unlock, the higher you skill, the more expensive. so you no longer need a schematic for each machine, but have the one plan in the skill menu.

Additionally, if you absolutely want to limit industries, you could improve these plans in this menu by upgrading them. 
level 1: you can use a maximum of 5 machines from this circuit diagram
level2: maximum 10
level3: max 25
level4: max 50
level5: max 100

At the same time you could integrate the skill system of the schematics with the achievements system. Achievements for "Unlock all T1/T2/3...Schematics: or unlock all blueprints for glass industry/fusion furnaces/... free.

No buying of schematics. simply unlock once in the skillsystem against quanta, done. 

Those who earn the achievements can then use them to unlock access to new designs for their machines. New design or new colors, you have to see what makes more sense.

 

Edited by Zarcata
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19 minutes ago, Sawafa said:

Single player - yes. But you forget about all other people. They can put warp cell schematics (or any other schems) to the market for some quanta. And I am sure, they will! So, you will not be limited in 400 cells in a day. Also, there will be schematics related skills, that will double the possible output. So... market should play very significant role in obtaining schems!

Those other players also wants to make warp cells to avoid the AFK-game of space flight between planets, not to mention the PvP folks who burn lots of cells iiuc. There just won't be enough WC schems to go around.

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I'm not convinced that recurring schematics on pures is a good idea, at least for the first iteration.

 

It will just add continual grind for everyone who wants to produce anything (not just major industrialists), increase final element prices across the board (reducting the value of other quanta faucets like missions and daily income), depreciate the value of ore further (as the cost of using the ore is a combination of the price of ore plus the refining cost), and further reduce players notion of self-sufficiency for their end-products (as it will continually take up schematic-queue slots). Unless NQ are expecting that Pure Producer becomes an industry specialist pathway (given the number of talents allocated to this) - but its not clear that industrialists will change from starting with ore, and its hardly an exciting gameplay loop.

 

I would have been inclined to just have schematics for the end products in the first instance, and then assess the impact.

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1 minute ago, Distinct Mint said:

Pure Producer becomes an industry specialist pathway (given the number of talents allocated to this) - but its not clear that industrialists will change from starting with ore, and its hardly an exciting gameplay loop.

I think that is is unlikely to happen as long as (most) pures are more costly to transport than the ores.

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Guys you have to stop to want an utopist game !!

 

Industry can't be unlimited, core can't be unlimited. in the past, JC has sell too many dreams about DU. It was a fake news to have full unlimited gameplay. It's not sustainable financially !

You can talk about slots (more or less) the time (more or less) and the quantity of each copy (more or less), but the fact there will be no changes about the system. 

If you just don't like the changes, NVM ! You play or you stop the game but the rest is only stupid blabla

 

You are always thinking about the game currently and always forgot what will happens with the wipe. All theses features we have since more than 1 year is only in this goal. Make sure to have an economy for the release, where each player can earn their life in the game:

- Asteroids > mining > sell to the market (or bot if T1)

- MU > mining > sell to the market (or bot if T1)

- Mission > travel the space to have money

- Sell your ship, lib voxel, lua,talent handling to the other players

- You can explore the world to find wreck, asteroid, or abandonned constructs

- You can piracy people on asteroid or mission (i can understand it's not easy to do)

- With core alien there wille be some fight in the future with a larger population with the release

- Craft item > sell items to the market, via dispenser, or other

 

But obviously if you earn some money, you need to have some sink about money. This is why there is some fee (tile, copy). 

The goal about the tile fee is to make sure you can't have too many tile only reserved for you and your org even if you are not mining them with MU.

If there was no tax, what would happens ?

People will take all tile they can just to make sure other players can't have them.

No fee is just a stupid request.
 

This is the same things with schematic. Make sure people will only produce schematic they can use or sell and not overproduce schematic. It's a regulation/control and it really important to have some regulation in the game.

 

I hope one day you will understand what is wrong with all yours reflections

Edited by Kanamechan
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2 hours ago, Yoarii said:

Those other players also wants to make warp cells to avoid the AFK-game of space flight between planets, not to mention the PvP folks who burn lots of cells iiuc. There just won't be enough WC schems to go around.

 

> Those other players also wants to make warp cells to avoid the AFK-game of space flight between planets
NO! The other player doesn't want to MAKE cells, he wants to HAVE them, not make. And he still be able to get them from the market.

 

> PvP folks

PvP shouldn't be cheap!

 

> There just won't be enough WC schems to go around.
The price will dictate WC availability... 

 

Not every player wants/needs to run it's own industry. Here is the same what happened with mining units - they now produce too much ore... Very much. In the same time getting schematics doesn't consume any of your time... It's only the matter of pressing the button and going to sleep/work/anywhere else, it doesn't consume active game play time. So, I think there will be quite significant market for schematics. And yes, cells will not cost such a small amount of quanta as they were couple of days ago.

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But. In my opinion this schematics revamp will not fix the economy. It will only increase items production cost, maybe it will reduce the items amount but nothing more. With the time we will again see overproduction of all the items and broken economy. So, NQ should turn on element sink in some way. And I am not speaking about the destruction of elements due to collision damage, but rather about elements degradation in some convenient way. They player should not go to every one element and use some hand tool to fix/restore/replace it, it should be possible to do in quick an convenient way.

 

As soon as element (and voxels) degradation will be turned on the economy should be fine.

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5 minutes ago, Sawafa said:

But. In my opinion this schematics revamp will not fix the economy. It will only increase items production cost, maybe it will reduce the items amount but nothing more. With the time we will again see overproduction of all the items and broken economy. So, NQ should turn on element sink in some way. And I am not speaking about the destruction of elements due to collision damage, but rather about elements degradation in some convenient way. They player should not go to every one element and use some hand tool to fix/restore/replace it, it should be possible to do in quick an convenient way.

 

As soon as element (and voxels) degradation will be turned on the economy should be fine.

Yes ! But this degadration can be made in the future. We have a little time before we are blocked with overproduction. And the time, is what NQ need !

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3 minutes ago, Kanamechan said:

Yes ! But this degadration can be made in the future. We have a little time before we are blocked with overproduction. And the time, is what NQ need !

If the game will go to the release/wipe without global element sink (in any kind) turned on it will be very big mistake. New rules should be applied from the very start of release, and not from some time in the future.

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1 minute ago, Sawafa said:

If the game will go to the release/wipe without global element sink (in any kind) turned on it will be very big mistake. New rules should be applied from the very start of release, and not from some time in the future.

For me, the destruction of pve element after crash is a good things for the release. With a little delay for new player with no destruction pve while 1 or 2 month ? In order to let them to learn mecanics about landing, take-off, atmospheric reentry, etc.

There are some sink money now and PvP can help a little for destruction of element.

 

And with the time, power system and the others things listed in the letter of creative director can be add, and i'm agreed with you, some degradation due to over the time on construct in some condition

 

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PvP doesn't play any significant role for DU right now. And that is why element destruction in PvP is just not enough. The majority of the players are not involved in any PvP action at all...

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This is crazy. The schematic system was never popular to start with and now the plan is to double down on it?

I'm all for time sinks in a game, i really am. But this is just banal beyond belief. I understand the need for some quanta sink to hold back inflation, but i'm actually incredilous that this is the solution you came up with. Why didn't you just reinstate module damage? That would have stimulated the economy again. Are you just trying to get people to sub 300 alts so that they can actually produce something meaningful? This solution is neither fun, nor rewarding, which is ultimately what we play games for right?

  • There is already a talent system which you can "lock" progress behind.
  • I know it harks to eve a little, but you could lock the talents behind a skill book (instead of a schematic), which would maintain the travel sink in game.
  • Taxation could be added to the production of a given item, with higher tiers, or specialist items costing a little more (without the inane schematic system).

Something as above, would serve many goals.

  • Those with mega-factories could still have them, it would just take them time to get there. Attempting to stop players having a thing, will either make them quit, or double down on their efforts to make it happen. It seems you're pushing for the former of these two outcomes.
  • Some form of taxation levels the playing field for new players and old alike. Ultimately it costs both players the same to produce an item, so everyone can compete. With the old schematic system, those who started producing first have the advantage as they do not need to factor the cost of the scematic once it has paid for itself. This proposed system.. i don't even have words for it.

I've been actively enjoying the game, even after a proposed wipe was announced. I didn't go and have a cry about it, because i still enjoy the game and on balance, i'm starting to feel a wipe will be a positive thing in the long run. However, after this announcement, i've not really been online. It just took the wind out of my sails completely.

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7 hours ago, Sawafa said:

Single player - yes. But you forget about all other people. They can put warp cell schematics (or any other schems) to the market for some quanta. And I am sure, they will! So, you will not be limited in 400 cells in a day. Also, there will be schematics related skills, that will double the possible output. So... market should play very significant role in obtaining schems!

So your argument that its ok because if I just throw more quanta at it then i can buy and make more schematics. because you assume that there is going to be massive amounts of people making extra schematics and selling them on the open market that just happen to be exactly the schematics I need?

and yes we can multiply that out... and have 10 accounts all making warp cells. so we can make 4K a day. but that's 10 accounts making nothing else but warp cells. Great plan have fun playing your dead game. I'm out.

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4 hours ago, Kanamechan said:

For me, the destruction of pve element after crash is a good things for the release. With a little delay for new player with no destruction pve while 1 or 2 month ? In order to let them to learn mecanics about landing, take-off, atmospheric reentry, etc.

There are some sink money now and PvP can help a little for destruction of element.

 

And with the time, power system and the others things listed in the letter of creative director can be add, and i'm agreed with you, some degradation due to over the time on construct in some condition

 

Yeah that would be great. But how many times have you crashed due to server issues? Lag? Disconnections? and just general server overload? This combined with the industry changes would just kill players and put them into a death loop where you could no longer play the game due to a couple of crashes. 

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The game may need more Quanta sinks, but i don't think this is the place to accomplish that.

 

I thought the goal here was to "fix" what was broken about schematics.

 

But instead, it seems like they've just taken the opportunity to add another layer of time and quanta sinks to the process.

 

Schematics were already doing their job as a Quanta sink for industry, nothing was broken there.  All we needed was a better way to manage them.  Which wasn't addressed.

 

Why turn schematics into an expendable resource that has to be constantly restocked.  Industry already has that in the form of basic resources.  We can gather resources, we can buy and sell them on the market, and we can use them to make more stuff.

 

If you think the resource cost to make stuff wasn't high enough, then increase the amount of resources that are needed to craft stuff. 

 

We don't need another layer of tedium.

Edited by Atmosph3rik
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So many things to respond to, but somehow i think it is pointless, because NQ is going to do this regardless of what is written in these soon to be ignored forums as history tells us regarding NQ.

 

I would say that forcing an economy is only going to force the player base into game play it doesn't want to do, which isn't healthy for profits. I say let the ability to be creative flow freely and let the quanta flow. Soon enough the player base will establish the economy. The game might get some good reviews for once which could lead to new players or old ones coming back. 

 

There are far more pressing issues than trying to force an economy they cannot hope to achieve. Its in the players nature to exploit, work around or just plain ignore game features they find distasteful. 

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2 hours ago, PlumYeti said:

So your argument that its ok because if I just throw more quanta at it then i can buy and make more schematics. because you assume that there is going to be massive amounts of people making extra schematics and selling them on the open market that just happen to be exactly the schematics I need?

>  exactly the schematics I need

People will sell schematics with maximum revenue/time, SO it will be the most needed by industrialists at given moment... Sure, there will be some fluctuations, but in general people will sell the schematics according to the industrialists needs. It will be a steady quanta income for the players.

 

And I love "consumable single use schematics" way much more than "schematics will live indefinitely" way with single-time quanta investment into them. The first one is much more dynamic way, and it provides easier way to newbie player start the industrialist game - the process will not need huge amount of quanta to invest, especially, it will not depend on inflation too much, as it's now. 

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1 hour ago, Atmosph3rik said:

If you think the resource cost to make stuff wasn't high enough, then increase the amount of resources that are needed to craft stuff. 

And this is called inflation... 

 

1 hour ago, Atmosph3rik said:

Why turn schematics into an expendable resource that has to be constantly restocked.  Industry already has that in the form of basic resources.  We can gather resources, we can buy and sell them on the market, and we can use them to make more stuff.

Because it will provide some dynamics and it will also produce some minimal price for the elements... It will not be profitable for industrialist to sell the element with lower price than corresponding schematics... It should provide some interesting gameplay with element prices... Elements will have some value, even the basic ones, instead now all of them have almost zero value.

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1 minute ago, Sawafa said:

Because it will provide some dynamics and it will also produce some minimal price for the elements... It will not be profitable for industrialist to sell the element with lower price than corresponding schematics... It should provide some interesting gameplay with element prices... Elements will have some value, even the basic ones, instead now all of them have almost zero value.

 

My point is that Industry already has all of that.   To make things you need stuff, these new schematics are just more stuff, you can call it a schematic, or Pure Iron, either way it's just a component in a recipe.

 

Yes, increasing the value of the components that are required to make something, will increase the value of the product, but we don't need another component to accomplish that.

 

We already have stuff that we can acquire through gameplay, and then sell or use to make more stuff.

 

These expendable schematics are just another resource, that is gated by a little interface, and a timer.  And the only way you can get more is to wait or pay for more accounts.

 

Even if you buy them on the market, the person who is selling them had to create them by waiting or buying more accounts.

 

It's like they are trying to fix the economy by adding another economy, on top of the non-functioning one we already have, instead of addressing the underlying issues.

 

And the goal wasn't to fix the economy in the first place. it was to fix schematics.

 

 

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On 7/16/2022 at 12:51 PM, Sawafa said:

Because it will provide some dynamics and it will also produce some minimal price for the elements... It will not be profitable for industrialist to sell the element with lower price than corresponding schematics... It should provide some interesting gameplay with element prices... Elements will have some value, even the basic ones, instead now all of them have almost zero value.

I think your making some assumptions here that you can't quantify, the first is what players are going to do in regard to selling/using schematics and whether they will be worth to 0nes and zeros there printed on. personally, i  see more solo factories and very limited market interactions. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:

...either way it's just a component in a recipe.

The difference here is you can get ores very easy in very big amounts, but schematics supply is quite limited. Even with markets. Something similar, by the way, goes about plasma and T5 elements. Som because of this limited supply of schematics it's not directly equal to just a new resource.

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