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Radar changes kill Capitals


Walter

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Change in an MMO is normal and in most cases welcomed if it is for a positive outcome. These radar changes were unasked for and force us to redesign our ships.

For me it's not much that now ships will be ugly with these radars sticking out but how battles will be from now on. Let's say we get a fight between a few Nanos and some Capitals defending an Alien core Shields are to go down very fast and the Capitals will start to Hull-tank until Venting is over, forcing radars on the outside will destroy these really quick because Weapon RNG goes straight to radars first as tested on PTS.

With the destroyed radars Capitals can't shoot back and this was really the final nail in the coffin for big ships.

NQ you really don't want us to fly big ships do you? 

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I'm good with "Radar needs to be on the outside of the ship" I  just wish they would stop making elements oversized and glowy/flashing.

If you are a small schooner and you want to achive victory over an aircraft carrier, then yes, the first thing you take out is the communications array/radar tower. duh.

Big giant overpowered ships should have some disadvantages yes.

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When repair crew became nearly useless is what killed cap ships or better crew based battled. 

Honestly we are the problem there... Too many people said "I want to pilot a battleship all myself" and now the game seems to focus on that. 

 

The older PvP crew game play was really really fun. I did all roles; pilots, gunners, and repair crew. Repair crew was actually the most fun. It was the most intense more so than piloting. 

 

 

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39 minutes ago, Endstar said:

When repair crew became nearly useless is what killed cap ships or better crew based battled. 

Honestly we are the problem there... Too many people said "I want to pilot a battleship all myself" and now the game seems to focus on that. 

 

The older PvP crew game play was really really fun. I did all roles; pilots, gunners, and repair crew. Repair crew was actually the most fun. It was the most intense more so than piloting. 

 

Also aimed at reducing cost...to be fair, the idea of multi-crew ships was never going to work great with a single shard system.

 

This should have been obvious to NQ during the design phase, but yet again their ideas were implemented far ahead of actually thinking about the system at scale. 

 

Network performance requires more resources (often exponentially so) as there's more clients.

 

Relatively small battles between multi-crew ships might involve 10+ clients...if battles were instanced, maybe this wouldn't be as big a deal, but otherwise it yields much better "bang for buck" for network performance without multi-crew ships. Even if it means more ships, fewer clients will likely be more efficient. 

 

That said, PvP performance will probably never be great and I don't think DU will ever see "massive" battles. 

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2 minutes ago, Haunty said:

If weapons really do prioritize radars, what if you buried a bunch of small inactive radars in voxels?


You would need many radars but that could be an option if you are not into aesthetics and there is where I draw the line.

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1 hour ago, blundertwink said:

 

Also aimed at reducing cost...to be fair, the idea of multi-crew ships was never going to work great with a single shard system.

 

This should have been obvious to NQ during the design phase, but yet again their ideas were implemented far ahead of actually thinking about the system at scale. 

 

Network performance requires more resources (often exponentially so) as there's more clients.

 

Relatively small battles between multi-crew ships might involve 10+ clients...if battles were instanced, maybe this wouldn't be as big a deal, but otherwise it yields much better "bang for buck" for network performance without multi-crew ships. Even if it means more ships, fewer clients will likely be more efficient. 

 

That said, PvP performance will probably never be great and I don't think DU will ever see "massive" battles. 


NQ is just in over their heads. They made some server tech that splits the main server frame into smaller sub-grids and splits those again and again, should increased activity or density in those grids require more performance that justifies its own shard. And with that tech-demo, they should have refined and sold it to a proper game studio that knows what it's doing and might actually properly apply it to a game.

 

Instead, NQ vowed to take this tech and use it themselves to make their own game: Dual Universe. And here we are, years later, with a half-baked, issue-ridden game with bare-bones gameplay loops, a fancy tech demo at best. And funny enough, it already shows that their tech isn't as holy-grail as they'd want it to be, severe server issues have plagued us recently more than usual and desync has been an issue since the beginning.

New features are always half-baked, not properly tested, more often than not break something, feedback apparently not taken. And the lack of communication takes the piss on all that.

Just look at all the issues posted on diverse discord servers with just the obstruction and placement of the radars with this change. Free-floating radars, some meters away from their constructs, still show obstructions in some cases. This wasn't tested on a PTS or anything.

Edited by Metsys
fixed typos
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1 hour ago, Haunty said:

If weapons really do prioritize radars, what if you buried a bunch of small inactive radars in voxels?

 
And with that you add extra weight to your ship, making it perform worse. At least it wont turn any worse, since your ships turns like shiet if it is above 1.75kt mass, same as a ship with 40kt mass does. Because that makes sense. But that's a whole other story...

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35 minutes ago, FuriousPuppy said:

people still play this game? lol...

I love DU for many things but these changes to radar are a Deal-breaker and me tired of calibrating Mu anyway a break from this seem a good option until we know what we get.

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13 hours ago, Walter said:

 

NQ you really don't want us to fly big ships do you? 


Nah and they want you to fly that hideous house sized DSAT on an S Core I bet so you can try to build around it while the devs laugh at us.

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The radar changes kill all armoured ships...it's like a knight going into battle with his manhood poking out...who would do that?? 

This is another example of NQ having no idea what they are doing..all of my ships pretty much now need a rework..and some are just not viable...I spent 2 years of long nights and broken sleep in this game, not doing it all over again...so I'm out. Good luck NQ, you are going to need it.

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19 hours ago, Walter said:

Change in an MMO is normal and in most cases welcomed if it is for a positive outcome. These radar changes were unasked for and force us to redesign our ships.

For me it's not much that now ships will be ugly with these radars sticking out but how battles will be from now on. Let's say we get a fight between a few Nanos and some Capitals defending an Alien core Shields are to go down very fast and the Capitals will start to Hull-tank until Venting is over, forcing radars on the outside will destroy these really quick because Weapon RNG goes straight to radars first as tested on PTS.

With the destroyed radars Capitals can't shoot back and this was really the final nail in the coffin for big ships.

NQ you really don't want us to fly big ships do you? 


 

I don't completely agree with you.
 

Basically, it's a few interesting things for the gameplay that the radars are exposed.
This can lead to having a repair team to repair this as a priority during a fight. So a possible argument for the multicrew.
 

But on the form, well it's NQ what, it's always disastrous. They never try to sell / explain the slightest thing they do... It's quite desperate.
 

Good story to be constructive for NQ and why this change is badly led / incomplete:
 

1) You can still put your radar entirely in voxels. This completely avoids the principle of exposing your radar
 

2) Item Pool HP is ridiculously low
Voxel HP pools are ridiculously low
Weapon damage is ridiculously high
 

3) This still gives a significant advantage to the ship without voxel and playing only with a shield (their radar will never be in danger)
 

4) The cross section system always destroys all interest in PvP the game. People only use 3 or 5% of the maximum cumulative usable area of a core. It is absurd. Bringing out the radars will not increase the size of the nano ships
 

5) To really bring depth to PvP gameplay, such a change would need to be accompanied by real gameplay features.
You expose the radars to enemy fire, so ok but make sure that for example XS ships can lock these radars during a fight rather than randomly spraying an entire building.

 

In short, this could have been a coherent change with a real strategy for the future of the game.

But right now, I don't feel like there's an future.

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14 minutes ago, Knight-Sevy said:


 

I don't completely agree with you.
 

Basically, it's a few interesting things for the gameplay that the radars are exposed.
This can lead to having a repair team to repair this as a priority during a fight. So a possible argument for the multicrew.
 

But on the form, well it's NQ what, it's always disastrous. They never try to sell / explain the slightest thing they do... It's quite desperate.
 

Good story to be constructive for NQ and why this change is badly led / incomplete:
 

1) You can still put your radar entirely in voxels. This completely avoids the principle of exposing your radar
 

2) Item Pool HP is ridiculously low
Voxel HP pools are ridiculously low
Weapon damage is ridiculously high
 

3) This still gives a significant advantage to the ship without voxel and playing only with a shield (their radar will never be in danger)
 

4) The cross section system always destroys all interest in PvP the game. People only use 3 or 5% of the maximum cumulative usable area of a core. It is absurd. Bringing out the radars will not increase the size of the nano ships
 

5) To really bring depth to PvP gameplay, such a change would need to be accompanied by real gameplay features.
You expose the radars to enemy fire, so ok but make sure that for example XS ships can lock these radars during a fight rather than randomly spraying an entire building.

 

In short, this could have been a coherent change with a real strategy for the future of the game.

But right now, I don't feel like there's an future.

1) I tried to do that enclose the radar gives you 100% obstruction well in my case did.

2) I agree 

3) Since we got shields element only ships is the only ships they favor

4) Cross section advantage is too high

5) As test run on PTS weapon fire goes straight to radars as favored target

 

You can argue that repair crews are back the problem is that Weapon fire rng prioritizes radar as target so you repair them 3 times and they are destroyed. Because of this a larger ship will be left blind during a fight rather quick

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all of my radars in voxel are obstructed. how can NQ claim you can 'build anything you can imagine' and at the same time say 'but only some of it will work'.  what a joke.

 

as for repair crews... whats the point?? why have someone sat on your ship waiting for the shield to go down so they can fix stuff when they can just be in another ship adding dps... pvp in DU is a mess

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10 minutes ago, LeoCora said:

why have someone sat on your ship waiting for the shield to go down so they can fix stuff when they can just be in another ship adding dps... pvp in DU is a mess

This

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21 hours ago, Walter said:


You would need many radars but that could be an option if you are not into aesthetics and there is where I draw the line.

Last time I tried connecting multiple radars to a gun seat (admittedly before the last patch) it worked in that the gun seat script could read from all the radars, but it didn't allow me to identify targets and select them from the radar output unless it was from one specific radar.  In other words one of the radars was magic and the only one the guns would work with.  That would stop the use of multiple radars on one seat if it still works like this.

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52 minutes ago, Kurosawa said:

soooo PVP players do not like being loot pinatas?

 

sry couldn't resist

Its not about PVP players it is NQ forcing us to abandon large ships with voxels and ccs to fly an element only ship to be viable. Me always for a fight if you know me

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UPDATE : Radar works enclosed while obstruction zone has no empty spaces in front of it and all full of voxels and also no elements in front of it .

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12 hours ago, Walter said:

Its not about PVP players it is NQ forcing us to abandon large ships with voxels and ccs to fly an element only ship to be viable. Me always for a fight if you know me

 

But it is the same, only difference is PVP players are there willingly :)

suggestions from previous similar threat

- do not fly what you cannot lose

- be better prepared

- bring more friends

 

Oh, and Yes the radar change sounds stupid but, hey, it is DU

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1 hour ago, Kurosawa said:

 

But it is the same, only difference is PVP players are there willingly :)

suggestions from previous similar threat

- do not fly what you cannot lose

- be better prepared

- bring more friends

 

Oh, and Yes the radar change sounds stupid but, hey, it is DU

- Do not fly what you cannot lose: Is not an issue we are always ready to replace PVP ship. 
- Be better prepared: Its not about that it's about larger ships getting a shaft again
- Bring more friends: There should be fewer Capital ships and more fighter-type ships but they nerf larger ships each time. So you say bring more Capitals?

Again it's not about losing a ship or someone unwilling to lose a ship. it's about balance between core sizes this thread.

 

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