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ROADMAP UPDATE: PREPARE FOR WAR WITH THE COMING OF 0.29 "ATHENA" - discussion thread


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13 minutes ago, VandelayIndustries said:

 

Your hauler will always be second class. A semi not gonna be able to handle a tank. Pvp ships are built for war.  Your hauler will be slower cause its carrying more. It's always been this way in any game. You just want a "get out of pvp free" button...in the pvp zone. Not gonna happen buddy. 

I'm not looking for a get out of Pvp button - I'm looking for balance between haulers and warships that enable a chance for the defender to escape - what NQ has handed to the PvPers with a stasis weapon (and potential speed changes) is a golden gun. There needs to be a counter for these mechanics, these additions make the balance worse for the defender.

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18 minutes ago, VandelayIndustries said:

You just want a "get out of pvp free" button...in the pvp zone. Not gonna happen buddy. 

 

No, "we" (as non-combatant players) want options to mitigate our risk when we travel through space so that if we encounter anything non friendly we have a chance to get out of the situation without having to plaster guns onto our ships and/or "bring friends". PVP players do not scare me nor do I care for them or their playstyle, regardless of that style being entirely legitimate, but I am not going to be feeding them kills for no reason.

So yes, PVP ships will generally be tankier, Haulers however would have ways to prevent getting caught and oversizing engines to be able to "speed tank" a potential engagement is entirely within the reasonable range of options in that regard.

 

NQ is once more going to apply an "easy fix, just a number in the database" carpet bombing "solution" where a more "specific to purpose" solution is needed to actually drive game play and make non combatant players venture out to where you might have a chance to try and engage them.

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10 minutes ago, Dracostan said:

I'm not looking for a get out of Pvp button - I'm looking for balance between haulers and warships that enable a chance for the defender to escape - what NQ has handed to the PvPers with a stasis weapon (and potential speed changes) is a golden gun. There needs to be a counter for these mechanics, these additions make the balance worse for the defender.

 

Anyway you think a hauler can escape, the pvp ship will use the same tactics, bring more people.  This fantasy you have of some hauler being better is delusional, because haulers are built FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT.  How you gonna go faster than a dedicated interceptor pvp ship?  If you jam my radar, ill bring a group of 5 and we will jam your radar first.  PVP ships will always be better. 

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Not really enthused about yet another resource as a pvp device. Everything else sounds good but is mostly improvements. I want some meaty updates like AvA and some survival mechanics or something.

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1 minute ago, blazemonger said:

 

No, "we" (as non-combatant players) want options to mitigate our risk when we travel through space so that if we encounter anything non friendly we have a chance to get out of the situation without having to plaster guns onto our ships and/or "bring friends". PVP players do not scare me nor do I care for them or their playstyle, regardless of that style being entirely legitimate, but I am not going to be feeding them kills for no reason.

So yes, PVP ships will generally be tankier, Haulers however would have ways to prevent getting caught and oversizing engines to be able to "speed tank" a potential engagement is entirely within the reasonable range of options in that regard.

 

NQ is once more going to apply an "easy fix, just a number in the database" carpet bombing "solution" where a more "specific to purpose" solution is needed to actually drive game play and make non combatant players venture out to where you might have a chance to try and engage them.

 

Look at EvE, your risk mitigation is in to not being FOUND, or caught. In a decade in eve ive never lost a hauler kill that i got a warp scram on.  Never been jammed by them.  And majority of time people arent solo, as its an MMO.  Once I get on grid against a hauler and im in a pvp ship, i will always have the advantage. Always.

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1 minute ago, Haunty said:

Not really enthused about yet another resource as a pvp device. Everything else sounds good but is mostly improvements. I want some meaty updates like AvA and some survival mechanics or something.

 

I get the impression NQ has abandoned AvA.  I hope not, but thats the feeling I get.

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When you say you're fixing the element stacking exploit, that means that you're making it to where stacked parts don't work.  That I understand and support, but are you going to fix the issue where it's throwing false positives on what's stacked?  Your own refer-a-friend jeep is stacked.  Is that gonna cease to work?

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16 hours ago, VandelayIndustries said:

Always.

 

You always reason from your perspective yes. And refuse to see the bigger picture. These changes will only have one outcome, more players withdraw to the Safezones and only ever com out if  they can warp.

Not because of "fear of the pewpew", just because it's not worth the risk and/or the effort.

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2 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

You always reason from your perspectinve yes. And refuse to see the bigger picture. These changes will only have one outcome, more players withdraw to the Safezones and only ever com out if  they can warp.

Not because of "fear of the pewpew", just because it's not worth the risk and/or the effort.

 Wrong, just because you say that doesnt mean it will happen.  Finally game is moving in the right direction.  

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3 minutes ago, VandelayIndustries said:

 

Look at EvE, your risk mitigation is in to not being FOUND, or caught. In a decade in eve ive never lost a hauler kill that i got a warp scram on.  Never been jammed by them.  And majority of time people arent solo, as its an MMO.  Once I get on grid against a hauler and im in a pvp ship, i will always have the advantage. Always.

 

This isn't Eve - if you like Eve mechanics because it favours you, then play Eve. I'm trying to advocate for balance that gives defenders a chance, for counters to game systems and mechanics that currently skew the balance too far in the attacker favour.

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2 minutes ago, Dracostan said:

 

This isn't Eve - if you like Eve mechanics because it favours you, then play Eve. I'm trying to advocate for balance that gives defenders a chance, for counters to game systems and mechanics that currently skew the balance too far in the attacker favour.

 

They will always be that way. Always. 

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I'm not saying a hauler should have the advantage over a dedicated PvP ship - that's not what I'm trying for here. I'm just trying to get game mechanics and systems that will give haulers a chance of getting away. At the moment, there is not this chance available to the defender - and with the proposed stasis weapon & changes to speed, this imbalance will only get worse.

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3 minutes ago, Dracostan said:

I'm not saying a hauler should have the advantage over a dedicated PvP ship - that's not what I'm trying for here. I'm just trying to get game mechanics and systems that will give haulers a chance of getting away. At the moment, there is not this chance available to the defender - and with the proposed stasis weapon & changes to speed, this imbalance will only get worse.

 

Good, right now the game is too far tipped in favor of the hauler.  You have thousands of su out of the pipe, and we have 2 su radar ranges.  Time to close that gap, make the game more balanced and fair. 

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1 hour ago, VandelayIndustries said:

 

Your hauler will always be second class. A semi not gonna be able to handle a tank. Pvp ships are built for war.  Your hauler will be slower cause its carrying more. It's always been this way in any game. You just want a "get out of pvp free" button...in the pvp zone. Not gonna happen buddy. 

All of your posts are spot on, but sadly the forum is top heavy with the carebears that will only ever be happy with one thing - the equivalent of a PVP on off button.

 

 

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In order of how it appears in the text:

 

"goddess of war", goddess of wisdom and strategy.

"set Helios ablaze" Helios is the star, not hard to set a bloody sun ablaze.

"hits a new stratosphere" there is only one. You can hit it, but not hit a new one.

"Alien" There are now aliens.

 

"Alien core units must be defended" If there is one space core, it might actually be defended, if there are plenty, we just have pvp asteroids 2.0:

PvE players in throwaways try to get some, without being shot down by the "league of pvp players who banded together to not shoot each other and complain about lack of targets".

 

"Stasis weapons". Are there really concerns right now that haulers have it too easy to escape from pvp ships?

 

FTUE at long last.

 

New space map, about time, embarrassing it took so long.

 

Visuals visuals visuals, sure nice, the bug introduced with the industry visuals is still not fixed.

 

Mining Units Lua API, nice, can we have dispensers, too?

 

Space market:

If this is just a market, but in space, we already have that, on every moon. Want to bring a huge space only ship to trade things? Go to the moon. Nobody does it of course, because nobody does it. The player base is so low, there is only one npc market with (usually) all things.

Also, how large will the no player-station radius around this be? Because there will be a cloud of little shit stations blocking access. Just because it is cheap to "reserve" some space in case NQ introduces more and better npc buyers and sellers again. 

 

Element stacking exploit fix: This time really though, right?

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52 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

No, "we" (as non-combatant players) want options to mitigate our risk when we travel through space so that if we encounter anything non friendly we have a chance to get out of the situation without having to plaster guns onto our ships and/or "bring friends". PVP players do not scare me nor do I care for them or their playstyle, regardless of that style being entirely legitimate, but I am not going to be feeding them kills for no reason.

So yes, PVP ships will generally be tankier, Haulers however would have ways to prevent getting caught and oversizing engines to be able to "speed tank" a potential engagement is entirely within the reasonable range of options in that regard.

 

NQ is once more going to apply an "easy fix, just a number in the database" carpet bombing "solution" where a more "specific to purpose" solution is needed to actually drive game play and make non combatant players venture out to where you might have a chance to try and engage them.

You can always drop your cargo in Exchange for escaping :) 

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Stasis weapons? So you’re adding crowd control with no CC break mechanics? Not sure how I feel about that.  What’s next; plasma weapons that have a DoT burn effect of CCS? Healing lasers? It could be cool, kind of like the game Dreadnaught, but if you put these things in ala carte, I think it’ll be a shit show.

 

The whole alien cores things doesn’t seem well thought out. Why not anomalies that pop up in random locations? It could add a new resource into the game, as well as elements to secure them. This feels like something tacked on, using existing assets. Or better yet, wormholes that act as a shortcut in between planets, but the downside being a narrow corridor makes it harder to run from pvp. This would make showboating missions riskier, but less time consuming.

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33 minutes ago, Shredder said:

All of your posts are spot on, but sadly the forum is top heavy with the carebears that will only ever be happy with one thing - the equivalent of a PVP on off button.

 

 

Maybe the game is actually full of these types of players and the more you make life difficult for them the more slowly leave

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1 hour ago, LosNopales said:

You can always drop your cargo in Exchange for escaping :) 

You can't really though if the entire encounter is happening at max speed... Dropping weight doesn't let you go faster if you are already going fastest =D with the new max speed limit and stasis stuff though, 100% haulers should definitely dump all cargo immediately upon being engaged. It's the only hope of escape if the cargo is limiting both your acceleration and your max speed, you'll need to shed as much weight as possible to stay ahead.

 

Also this further disincentivizes mega-haulers. Better to have a lighter weight hauler that can go faster.

 

The one possible positive I can see here is if a hauler can outfit itself with 100% stasis weapons to slow pursuers. If I can load up my hauler with enough stasis weapons to slow down the person hunting me so they can't get within target lock range for long, that could actually be a viable defensive measure.

Edited by Koruzarius
Had an additional addendum
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3 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

Sounds like NQ thinks Players will flock to PVE content in PVP zones where the content may be ok, but there stil is no way to get away without engaging in PVP.. Feels like NQ has not learnt much from the Asteroids outside the safezones remaining mostly undiscovered every week.

 

Also.. "Alien core units" sets the expectation for NPC forces to arrive sooner or later..  We'll need to see the details here but at first glance I'd have to pass on this content

 

 

Yeah, everyone is soo excited about the beginning of the end it's really strange to witness. Soon there will be less of a chance to evade attackers let's party...meanwhile they exiled over half of their player base, Asteroids are largely ignored and MU's are slower than picking up ore one piece at a time but lets celebrate. 

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7 minutes ago, vylqun said:

as if^^

It's called.  Drop your cargo and we let you go :)   .  Or drop your cargo and transfer 10M and we let you go :)   If you get the right price point it works.  

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3 hours ago, VandelayIndustries said:

 

Look at EvE, your risk mitigation is in to not being FOUND, or caught. In a decade in eve ive never lost a hauler kill that i got a warp scram on.  Never been jammed by them.  And majority of time people arent solo, as its an MMO.  Once I get on grid against a hauler and im in a pvp ship, i will always have the advantage. Always.

You forgot a couple of things, sec status and standings as consequences, which DU doesn't have.  Would you be ok with players being able to shoot you in the safe zone because you blew up too many ships in the pvp zone?

 

As for your real life comparison,  yes a tank can destroy  a semi easily,  but some government will make sure to destroy  the tank and imprison or kill the the tank driver.

 

DU should have consequences for actions.

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