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Market bots


vylqun
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So, as predicted T2 and some T3 prices are often below T1 bot prices by now, which makes those hexes very unprofitable, considering that you can often claim 500 ore/h T1 hexes, but nothing like that for T3+ and in most cases you rarely have a T1 above 100 as secondary ore on them. 

NQ said they watch marketprices and will act accordingly. The time to act is now! Either lower hex taxes, or introduce buy bots for T2+ at logical higher price levels than T1, else no one will be able to afford keeping those T2+ hexes, because they just cost more than you can earn with them even if you keep nothing for your own use (or alternatively add buy bots for finished products).

 

DU isn't remotely close to a playerbase where there is any ore scarcity with the currently available mining hexes which would drive the prices up!

(and please, i dont want to hear anything like "players aren't supposed to own more than 1 or 2 T2+mining hexes" or any of that, because without mining there is barely any gameplay left that is directly supported by the games systems)

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2 hours ago, vylqun said:

So, as predicted T2 and some T3 prices are often below T1 bot prices by now, which makes those hexes very unprofitable, considering that you can often claim 500 ore/h T1 hexes, but nothing like that for T3+ and in most cases you rarely have a T1 above 100 as secondary ore on them. 

NQ said they watch marketprices and will act accordingly. The time to act is now! Either lower hex taxes, or introduce buy bots for T2+ at logical higher price levels than T1, else no one will be able to afford keeping those T2+ hexes, because they just cost more than you can earn with them even if you keep nothing for your own use (or alternatively add buy bots for finished products).

 

DU isn't remotely close to a playerbase where there is any ore scarcity with the currently available mining hexes which would drive the prices up!

(and please, i dont want to hear anything like "players aren't supposed to own more than 1 or 2 T2+mining hexes" or any of that, because without mining there is barely any gameplay left that is directly supported by the games systems)

I setup my MU's on Ion and Symeon.  I have been slow boating the ore.  It just does not seem worth it.  Reward for effort just isnt there.

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True @Emptiness, but it's the only real faucet the game has. Mission really only are worth anything after a while and once a player gets accesst o bigger and better ships.

 

Ore supply now being infinite also really does not help as there is no reason to consider not selling to bots.. And with a sanctuary tile being good for several million quanta profit a week, it's pretty much like printing money. By doing basically nothing but sit on your Sanctuary tile, your weekly income can be north of 6 million. (calibrate each day, collect surface ore, 500L/h consistently plus 150K/day)

So you create a toon, let him sit on sanctuary for a month while he trains talents and have around 25 million in the bank.,.  EZ money ..

 

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I hope we don't go back to 'mining to bot orders online' again.  The game is supposed to have a player driven market.  If that isn't working then something needs to be rebalanced.  Perhaps increase the ore requirements for industry or nerf the quantity of ore which is generated by autominers so that the amount of ore generated by automining by a typical player is less than the amount consumed by a typical player by ship building, turning into honeycomb, etc.

 

If all that happens is the bot orders come back for higher tier ores then IMO that's an admission of failure of the player driven markets.

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48 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:

I hope we don't go back to 'mining to bot orders online' again.  The game is supposed to have a player driven market.  If that isn't working then something needs to be rebalanced.  Perhaps increase the ore requirements for industry or nerf the quantity of ore which is generated by autominers so that the amount of ore generated by automining by a typical player is less than the amount consumed by a typical player by ship building, turning into honeycomb, etc.

 

If all that happens is the bot orders come back for higher tier ores then IMO that's an admission of failure of the player driven markets.

 

I dont see where those suggestions would help anything in the problem of quanta/hex mined vs taxes you have to pay.

Yes, it would be great if there would be no need for bots, but with the tax system NQ destroyed that possibility. Without a drastic reduction in taxes or the introduction of buy bots that also affect higher tier ores owning T2+ mining hexes is a loss-operation.

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The unbalanced economy is a symptom of larger issues with the game's design (or lack thereof) as it always has been.

 

Personally, I don't think NQ has the design vision to ever fix it. Demeter was the final proof that NQ doesn't have a skilled game designer on staff. 

 

As I've said before, NQ still operates like DU is in early alpha. They throw things into production, say "it's just a first version", then adjust the entire game's design reactively...with infrequent patches and no communication in between. 

 

This would be frustrating even for a single player game, but as a paid subscription MMO? It's not sustainable.

 

They will never have balance in the economy when they develop the game as they do. 

 

Crude, reactive design will only produce a balanced economy by accident, and even then it will be rapidly destabilized by the next change...if they are going to stick with business as usual, their velocity of patches needs to be much, much faster. 

 

IMO, before DU's economy can mature, NQ as an organization has to mature -- they need to have a real design plan instead of developing DU as if it is still a prototype. 

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I am a solo player I have 3 accounts in order to be able to make the necessary calibration of all my territories. It's not really great fun to do 15-20 minigames per day but if in addition it becomes less profitable with t2-t3 minerals, so what is the interest?


I am doing this because it is a safe and easy way to make money.
I'm not going to spend a considerable amount of time (in calibration, traveling to sell the ore, etc.) to gain little from the current t2-t3 ore prices.

 

For 10 days that the price of minerals t2 t3 has been soaring, it looked like a stock market crash like irl ...

 

Today, I wonder about the interest of keeping my territories to make a profit. Asteroid mining seems to me more profitable despite the risks incurred in pvp zones.
And to conclude, I play for fun, if the repetitive task in the game do not bring me a benefit, I am no longer having fun to play the game....

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On 12/31/2021 at 12:53 PM, vylqun said:

 

I dont see where those suggestions would help anything in the problem of quanta/hex mined vs taxes you have to pay.

Yes, it would be great if there would be no need for bots, but with the tax system NQ destroyed that possibility. Without a drastic reduction in taxes or the introduction of buy bots that also affect higher tier ores owning T2+ mining hexes is a loss-operation.

So don't mine bad T2+ hexes then?

 

I've got plenty of T2 and T3 ones which are easily making enough quanta to pay the taxes even at the current prices.

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On 12/31/2021 at 8:30 AM, Emptiness said:

The entire economy has been broken from the beginning. Buying billions of ore just to process and sell it to NPC buy orders should never have been a thing.



That was never a thing. They rushed t5 on moons (in that I am not sure they actually landed something safely, there are ways), to sell it to the bot's automatical buying orders, which made enough money to buy all the components they needed for their nice blueprints, which in turn had them scanning tiles at neckbreaking pace within days, which in turn had them selling more t5, to buy components that would have been impossible to craft by yourself in such short time... That in itself was just thorough min-maxing by the players, and the reason why we can't have bot buying orders for the high ores. Over long term it would have been completely unsustainable, all buying and sellings order all had the same spread you can still see in t1 now. It was not possible to buy ore from a bot, process it, and sell it to a bot for profit.

The thing with the wreckages though was a balance disaster... I'd rather not talk about it even if I doubt the NDA still holds any value retroactively.

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Slow boating my ore back from Symeon and Ion takes a lot of time.

The T3 ore I bring back (Garnerite) is currently worth 31 quanta.  Just happens to be the same price as Bauxite.

It really feels like I'm wasting my time.

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You do realise the main issue is that it doesnt have a playerbase ?  If we had more players the demand for ore would be far greater plus removing armour from ships literally killed the need for voxels too.

 

If we bring back for example armour, element destruction (Or decay) ore will be needed without tweaking industry significantly.

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7 hours ago, Underhook said:

Slow boating my ore back from Symeon and Ion takes a lot of time.

The T3 ore I bring back (Garnerite) is currently worth 31 quanta.  Just happens to be the same price as Bauxite.

It really feels like I'm wasting my time.

I am currently maintaining a tile cluster with 550+tiles that even has some T2, and it's less then 35km from District 6. And it wasn't like I had to look very hard to find those tiles, so indeed that sounds like a waste of time and just goes to shows how badly designed the entire tax and bots system is.

 

 

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21 hours ago, Overstimuloredom said:

The thing with the wreckages though was a balance disaster... I'd rather not talk about it even if I doubt the NDA still holds any value retroactively.

 

Actual disaster was extent of exploiting over first year of game since Beta start. 

 

I will not talk about dupes (because not sure what ways still work, so they grill me over spilling beans), but. Per safe example: people used bots to repeat tutorial to claim its reward for weeks and months, running this thing 24/7, making A LOT of money from thin air. 

 

And while some people ofc got banned (ironicly not on all alts usually), all this stuff still in economy, after eventually (and succesfully) RMTed, with like 1000-1500 euro sums sometimes.

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Good morning
First of all, the ore is worth even more than some of us here claim. who sells Garnerite (T3) for 31 quanta, just because that's where the buy-it-now bids are, it's his own fault. The real values at the sale bid are mostly between 60-120 quanta. 

(By the way, this applies to all ores, you don't always have to click the buy-it-now button here just to sell it immediately).

So, now to the problem with the quanta ore and the economic cycle.

DualUniverse is first and foremost a building game. Collect ore to build something out of it.
But now every player who wants to build something can mine ore himself. At least everything that concerns T1. If you want T2/T3, you have to search for suitable areas with production. Whoever finds it will have a powerful tool for his own supply. If you just want to build fancy things as a designer, you are completely covered. If necessary, you can sell some ore to exchange it for others, or you can trade ore for ore with players and bypass the market with the taxes.

DualUniverse has now introduced area taxes. Well, players now adapt and bring even more of their own ore to the market and build accordingly less themselves, because you now need Quanta for the taxes. Alternatively, there are only the missions. (These, however, are not lucrative, are also no fun (time-use) and depending on the mission it is easy times 5-6 hours afk to fly through space ... I certainly do not turn on the game for that!)

That there are ores is therefore no problem, so we can only build more, produce and generate fun together. Currently, however, due to the few players only a very small market is available. In addition, many players are partial or self-supporters. accordingly, the demand is also low. Another problem is the twink mechanic. A player can create many more accounts and cover his own needs for all ores.

So it is the same problem as in the real economy. We produce more than we need, just to maintain employment, but at the same time cry that the products by competitors and the produced mass -but no demand- from the value/price fall.

By the way, I don't know of any game or real economy that would work without problems in the long run. So why should it work in DualUniverse?

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1 hour ago, Zarcata said:

Good morning
First of all, the ore is worth even more than some of us here claim. who sells Garnerite (T3) for 31 quanta, just because that's where the buy-it-now bids are, it's his own fault. The real values at the sale bid are mostly between 60-120 quanta. 

(By the way, this applies to all ores, you don't always have to click the buy-it-now button here just to sell it immediately).

So, now to the problem with the quanta ore and the economic cycle.

DualUniverse is first and foremost a building game. Collect ore to build something out of it.
But now every player who wants to build something can mine ore himself. At least everything that concerns T1. If you want T2/T3, you have to search for suitable areas with production. Whoever finds it will have a powerful tool for his own supply. If you just want to build fancy things as a designer, you are completely covered. If necessary, you can sell some ore to exchange it for others, or you can trade ore for ore with players and bypass the market with the taxes.

DualUniverse has now introduced area taxes. Well, players now adapt and bring even more of their own ore to the market and build accordingly less themselves, because you now need Quanta for the taxes. Alternatively, there are only the missions. (These, however, are not lucrative, are also no fun (time-use) and depending on the mission it is easy times 5-6 hours afk to fly through space ... I certainly do not turn on the game for that!)

That there are ores is therefore no problem, so we can only build more, produce and generate fun together. Currently, however, due to the few players only a very small market is available. In addition, many players are partial or self-supporters. accordingly, the demand is also low. Another problem is the twink mechanic. A player can create many more accounts and cover his own needs for all ores.

So it is the same problem as in the real economy. We produce more than we need, just to maintain employment, but at the same time cry that the products by competitors and the produced mass -but no demand- from the value/price fall.

By the way, I don't know of any game or real economy that would work without problems in the long run. So why should it work in DualUniverse?

This patch is the 1st time I have ever used buy now price for ore.

I tried to sell garnerite for 2 weeks, constantly lowering my price to try and beat all the other players doing the same thing.  Never sold any.  Then, I had to pay tax.  I imagine most players who need to raise funds to pay tax are simply selling ore at the buy price because They cant wait 3 months to sell at a reasonable price.  The real price is only real if people are actually selling for that price.  In a market where the real price is constantly dropping, its because people are not selling at the real price.

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NO to market manipulation as the anser is and will always be resource sinks as the problem is much more systemic than just handing out even more quanta like candy without addressing the real issues as to why the market is broken, why we needed taxes and market bots, and the introduction of infinite ore for everyone compounding the problem people tried to warn of when they talked about this system.

 

There needs to be resource sinks in the game to keep the ore markets moving as it is the only real economy in the game at this point since most people can make their own parts and nobody needs this much excess in the system without resource sinks like destructible elements and wear and tear.

 

If they go this route without resource sinks you can expect taxes to be raised as if you have missions still pumping out unlimited quanta, unlimited ore coming in, and unlimited ore being bought by NQ bots the system will need to take that quanta out via more taxes unless there are sufficient resource sinks as there are no punishments or death penalties in this game other than loss of ships in PvP but nobody really does PvP in any degree that impacts the market.

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It does not require destruction in the PvE SafeZone area. There is a lot of ore in the voxel area, more than it is destroyed in PvP.
If one wants more destruction, this should exist exclusively with the PvP areas. There base wars on planet-moon spacestations would devour so much material, if one would really expand PvP and bring times sensibly into the game.

Reduction of the damage per hit, but less time intervals between the bombardment, so that you can shoot more ammunition. At the same time, the volume of ammunition should be significantly reduced so that you can take more of it with you.

When will surface warfare be introduced in the PvP area? Perhaps an organization war would also help, where you could declare war on opposing organizations. Once they have such a war status all planets and moons (Except the 3-planet safe zone) are PvP area.

In general, why do the safe zones around the T4-T5 planets/moons remain? War status there would increase the ores' value significantly.

Likewise, it would make sense for all elements to be destroyed in PvP - no 3-lives, but destruction. For this one can feed these elements in a recycler, in order to receive from it remainder raw materials in small quantity.

One could also consider considerably higher resources for T4-T5 elements, so that the gap from T1-T3 is then considerably more noticeable on T4-5. T4-5 should be the final content that requires noticeably more resources. Alternatively, one could introduce T6-7-8....(or do higher tier levels remain for new solar systems?).

 

Edited by Zarcata
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