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DevBlog: Element Destruction - DUscussion thread

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42 minutes ago, ManfredSideous said:

Next critique is destructible elements. For PVP this is an awesome change for non-pvp not so much. My suggestion is for non-pvp aka collision is that collision cannot break an element ( make it red) only damage it ( make it yellow). ITT several players have illustrated that due to bugs , things not loading or server / client issues desynch etc leads to ship crashes or collisions.  So I would highly encourage you with a rethink on non-pvp element damage or you will have a large part of your customers gnashing teeth.

 

In closing I just want to say that in a Sandbox MMO destruction is the seed of life. I can go on to ad nauseum of the hows and whys justifying and proving my point.  However someone did a much job than me in a much better way.   Let me introduce you to Jean-Baptiste Emmanuel Zorg from Zorg industries in the cult classic Fifth Element.   Enjoy the clip!

As you said, destruction is the seed of life. Counterparts bring challenges, objectives, basically game balance and gameplays. Why remove this? For player who don't want to leave their confort zone?  When a game becomes too easy, people become bored and leave, without realizing their fears and complains led them here. For bugs? Game balance should not be designed around bugs. Should NQ make a soft transition for that?

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4 minutes ago, ManfredSideous said:

NQ have said there will be asteroids and new solar systems to bring in new ore.  Your comment of the solo player having to join an org.  Lets look at that word Organization ( to organize) hmm I wonder why they would have an advantage over a solo player 🤔

im not agreed with all you said in your post but yes in most of it. anyway im not arguing and answering your post cos im not agree. the thread was open to add our ideas and agre with Nq not betwen us plz this is not your post, i don't think is a good idea to you to asnwer everyone debating or making their ideas bad or a joke cos you think yours is the better
 

pd: i love your analoge of zorg cherrie

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10 minutes ago, Neo_O said:

im not agreed with all you said in your post but yes in most of it. anyway im not arguing and answering your post cos im not agree. the thread was open to add our ideas and agre with Nq not betwen us plz this is not your post, i don't think is a good idea to you to asnwer everyone debating or making their ideas bad or a joke cos you think yours is the better
 

pd: i love your analoge of zorg cherrie

Yea was no hate friend I do not have the market cornered on best thinking. I was just participating in the discussion.  Have a good day 😄

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1 hour ago, Brusco said:

It happens waaaay too often in the state the game is now that players crash they'r ships for reasons they're not responsible for.
Like lags, game crashes and so on. Before doing that you should focus on optimization first i think.

 

The only party who _knows_ how big a percentage of crashes is not due to player/design faults is NQ. I can only assume they have enough data to know that doing this now is sensible and at the same time, they will be able to see/know if you make a valid claim or not..

 

The previous announcement on the more restrictive TP conditions should be an indication NQ has a good idea of the number of "player error" crashes and they are causing a lot of extra work which is not justified. If you crash due to a system issue then log a ticket and/or follow the directions given, it's not like NQ all of a sudden washes their hands of issues that may occur which are outside your control while at the same time they pretty much are saying that if you f it up yourself, fix it yourself.. and they should as that position was long overdue IMO.

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5 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

The only party who _knows_ how big a percentage of crashes is not due to player/design faults is NQ. I can only assume they have enough data to know that doing this now is sensible and at the same time, they will be able to see/know if you make a valid claim or not..

 

The previous announcement on the more restrictive TP conditions should be an indication NQ has a good idea of the number of "player error" crashes and they are causing a lot of extra work which is not justified. If you crash due to a system issue then log a ticket and/or follow the directions given, it's not like NQ all of a sudden washes their hands of issues that may occur which are outside your control while at the same time they pretty much are saying that if you f it up yourself, fix it yourself.. and they should as that position was long overdue IMO.

The teleports are a whole other story. When a player f*cked it up on himself like running out of fuel, not having scrap to repair with them or stuff...then just let them deal with it.

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Before this is implemented there needs to be some work done on the bugs that make you crash. Lag spin is rediculous and right now the only way to fix it is to use the lua hud. Pretty angry when my medium core spun out of control and pancaked. If it happens to my large core for a reason out of my control and then I have to replace everything through no fault of my own. Something like that might just make me log out and keep my  money until the issues get ironed out. Know what I mean.

 

I take a lot of time testing my ships so they fly without any issues. I still have disconnects and game issues that cause my ship to go boom. Optimization before Implementation please.

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3 minutes ago, Brusco said:

The teleports are a whole other story. When a player f*cked it up on himself like running out of fuel, not having scrap to repair with them or stuff...then just let them deal with it.

Except they are not. A lot of these are "Oh, I lagged and crashed and while I am sure I set my respawn on my base on Thades I ended up on Alioth instead, please TP my ship to me".. Frankly crashes due to lag or system issues are relatively small in numbers and then, NQ would have data to verify this and wil lno doubt make an exception to the rule as they have indicated.. It's just that hey stopped just hitting the TP button and will now investigate each "incident"

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For the most part the pvp changes will be great allowing players to fight back.   After giving this more thought I know how the PVP changes will be exploited as I am sure this has been posted before.  We will have spike ships;  very small cross sections loaded with guns.  it will make them harder to hit and able to maintain their L guns.    20x 20 x full length L core ship with L guns the problem will still exist in a different form. maybe even worse because they will have more ammo.  For the time being just do the radar fix so players can fight back ;) this will help. 

 

PVE damage some players don't seem to have the same amount of game crashes and render bugs as others but some concession should be made.  I am also thinking about new players learning to fly also. how many times did you crash when you were first starting out ? 

 

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2 minutes ago, Fembot68 said:

For the most part the pvp changes will be great allowing players to fight back.   After giving this more thought I know how the PVP changes will be exploited as I am sure this has been posted before.  We will have spike ships;  very small cross sections loaded with guns.  it will make them harder to hit and able to maintain their L guns.    20x 20 x full length L core ship with L guns the problem will still exist in a different form. maybe even worse because they will have more ammo.  For the time being just do the radar fix so players can fight back ;) this will help. 

 

PVE damage some players don't seem to have the same amount of game crashes and render bugs as others but some concession should be made.  I am also thinking about new players learning to fly also. how many times did you crash when you were first starting out ? 

 

Wont someone think of the children!! I kid I kid!! But very beginners learning use very small ships and modified speeders. Those parts are dirt cheap and easy to repair with scrap. All that comes down to is a good tutorial where they can fly over and over to test out, which I think is partially implemented? Idk haven't touched the tutorial.  The new people will be fine as long as they are properly briefed on how things work, then given a "instanced space" to do some basic flying if they so choose.

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- I would just use elements in PvP that are on Que to be destroyed promising that the victor in PvP would get nothing at all. No Loot for the victor. Unless I'm not  understanding something correctly here. Will the PvP'er who kills you be able to loot the destroyed container on its last limb? It has to be destroyed or replaced... can you still view what's inside and get the loot still? If not, already an issue here. If you can't then containers, fuel tanks, etc. need to drop a bag O loot.

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I'm on board with everything, but the given examples of element destruction scare me without any details.

 

Do elements lose a repair # even if they get hit again  with low hp? Cuz any sustain fight with someone trying to repair is counter intuitive.... repairing during a fight is almost guaranteed to fully destroy your elements, instead of just cost a bit of scrap. Long sustain fights won't be worth it because there will be no spoils what-so-ever from the fight.

 

 Pirates will have to hope to god they kill the players fast enough and not hit the cargo too much, because we can't aim our weapons specifically at all.

 

The examples given, feel either FAR too low, or they need to be given a condition. For instance repairs within # hours of each other only use up 1 restoration count.

 

Don't get me wrong, this greatly increases industry, and i love that, but i dont' want pvp to become less relevant because of it.

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Sounds great...cant wait as elements should NEVER have lasted forever to begin with. I DO understand that it was to assist with testing purposes and had it's place for a time. Time for removal of the crutches, and a fix to the bug for fast AGG is overdue. People have come to depend on these things, just like getting TP to ships, Ships reset, ect for too long. Time to begin moving to the status that the game is intended to have at release. 

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1 hour ago, ShibbyGuy said:

- I would just use elements in PvP that are on Que to be destroyed promising that the victor in PvP would get nothing at all. No Loot for the victor. Unless I'm not  understanding something correctly here. Will the PvP'er who kills you be able to loot the destroyed container on its last limb? It has to be destroyed or replaced... can you still view what's inside and get the loot still? If not, already an issue here. If you can't then containers, fuel tanks, etc. need to drop a bag O loot.

Pretty clear that if a container it’s 100% destroyed, everything inside is also destroyed. Only damage containers can be repaired and/or looted/use. So for example, if all your fuel tanks are destroyed, you no longer have any fuel and will stop/drop as engines can’t run; Or if all your ammo boxes are destroyed then you can no longer shoot; Or from your own question, if your cargo container it’s destroyed, then everything inside is lost. I hope that helps.

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This is a start but its still far too much loot from a single ship kill. Even with 1 full repair it means the victors in a fleet battle will have the ships of both fleets to use afterward and things will only become more unbalanced. 

 

I think it was Moosegun who suggested that weapons do carry over damage that will reduce or eliminate possible repairs unless attackers are careful to shoot only as much as needed - something unlikely to happen in a fleet battle. 

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46 minutes ago, Iorail said:

Pretty clear that if a container it’s 100% destroyed, everything inside is also destroyed. Only damage containers can be repaired and/or looted/use. So for example, if all your fuel tanks are destroyed, you no longer have any fuel and will stop/drop as engines can’t run; Or if all your ammo boxes are destroyed then you can no longer shoot; Or from your own question, if your cargo container it’s destroyed, then everything inside is lost. I hope that helps.

Yeah, thanks! My concern is.. what's going to stop people from just getting their containers to the last stage and putting them on a PvP ship or a hauler. It get's destroyed by me for instance, but it was their last life on the container and they had loads of loot, but now I can't access the spoils of battle. So everything they were hauling was as if the player deleted it himself. So I believe we need a loot bag for containers and fuel tanks for instance if it was destroyed by PvP... which can have a timer for when it disappears so we don't clutter up space. See where I'm going with this?

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9 minutes ago, ShibbyGuy said:

Yeah, thanks! My concern is.. what's going to stop people from just getting their containers to the last stage and putting them on a PvP ship or a hauler. It get's destroyed by me for instance, but it was their last life on the container and they had loads of loot, but now I can't access the spoils of battle. So everything they were hauling was as if the player deleted it himself. So I believe we need a loot bag for containers and fuel tanks for instance if it was destroyed by PvP... which can have a timer for when it disappears so we don't clutter up space. See where I'm going with this?

Have you pvp'd? Because containers have a lot of HP and dont always die in pvp. What they do get destroyed in is crashes. If that hauler wants to use containers on their last life, let them. They have a higher chance of losing it to a simple re-entry crash, amd thus totally fucking themselves out of potentially millions of cargo. So its balanced in my view. 

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Review of Feature :DevBlog: Element Destruction

 

This is a great update that i am looking forward to seeing. The various changes and additions wanting to be added i feel will be nice addition and fix especially for the pvp and weapons ration to core size. 

 

  • Instead of making it to where the weapon cannot be placed on a core of a certain size perhaps make the system have a certain amount of command points so that you can only place so many of a certain weapon on a given core. This would still have the same effect as the option of current proposed plan but give more range of weapons use especially to people looking to optimize their ship designs. This could also be tied into the skill tree thus creating a more interactive experience.
  • For the weapons and hitboxes. There should be an option for those that are being targeted to see a hot cold scale (if has radar)for which direction to turn their ship so they don't have to wait for their ship to be hit before they make their adjustment.
  • On another note it might be interesting to make the option for people to re engineer a destroyed element(not completely destroyed still has repairs times left) with parts to provide them the opportunity for a slightly decreased cost of that new element such as what they do with heavy mining equipment in real life.
  • In this update it should also include and option for players to see damaged elements through voxels if their the core owner or have permissions so it makes it easier to repair.
  • Perhaps adding a option for highlighting all voxels as well as elements in a core for removal purposes later as well as repair
  • Provide a ghost image for people to use to repair ships as well as allow the repair element to repair voxels from ghost image ties into option above.

 

These are just some of the options that would help people but again suggestions and which you guys t the best of luck in this new update hopefully it goes smoothly.

 

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7 minutes ago, JohnnyTazer said:

Have you pvp'd? Because containers have a lot of HP and dont always die in pvp. What they do get destroyed in is crashes. If that hauler wants to use containers on their last life, let them. They have a higher chance of losing it to a simple re-entry crash, amd thus totally fucking themselves out of potentially millions of cargo. So its balanced in my view. 

Easy. Surround last life containers around a core/seat with all your loot inside. Grief the PvP player that killed you low-key. I think you missed the point however, but it's great that if they had a last life container on their hauler and they crashed and lost it all to PvE right thats great! Helps the economy and so on  ...but in PvP it's a low-key griefing mechanic, if containers are destroyed by a GUN in pvp and it was on it's last life, it should drop a loot bag. Again, only on the PvP side of things. Not PvE hauler bad piloting  mishap risks.

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11 minutes ago, ShibbyGuy said:

Easy. Surround last life containers around a core/seat with all your loot inside. Grief the PvP player that killed you low-key. I think you missed the point however, but it's great that if they had a last life container on their hauler and they crashed and lost it all to PvE right thats great! Helps the economy and so on  ...but in PvP it's a low-key griefing mechanic, if containers are destroyed by a GUN in pvp and it was on it's last life, it should drop a loot bag. Again, only on the PvP side of things. Not PvE hauler bad piloting  mishap risks.

It's not griefing. Look I'm a pvper so I would want that loot. But if a player takes that risk so be it. It's high risk for low reward.  But If they wanna go that route so be it. And I've played enough eve, it would only take 1 crash where a player coulda kept a say 20 million haul to make them not do it again. It's bad business losing your cargo in any fashion, not just to pvpers.  The set back of crashing and losing all your loot because you used containers on their last life....that's a big one. 

 

 

What a hauler does with his or her loot, or how he tries to transport it is their business.

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3 minutes ago, JohnnyTazer said:

It's not griefing. Look I'm a pvper so I would want that loot. But if a player takes that risk so be it. It's high risk for low reward.  But If they wanna go that route so be it. And I've played enough eve, it would only take 1 crash where a player coulda kept a say 20 million haul to make them not do it again. It's bad business losing your cargo in any fashion, not just to pvpers.  The set back of crashing and losing all your loot because you used containers on their last life....that's a big one. 

 

 

What a hauler does with his or her loot, or how he tries to transport it is their business.

So if I intentionally go out and blow up my containers and such to put it on it's last life to put on my hauler or pvp ship. That's not a low-key grief? Player's will do this to get a last laugh in PvP because they lost. It's as if they deleted the items while you were fighting them. Understand the griefing side of it yet?

 

Knowing these elements are on there last life would also maybe make players risk them on a PvP ship right.... even if you don't force the last life. When you go to PvP with them and lose the other player loses their effort to obtain loot, not to just let it disappear like the player throwing it away themselves.

 

What I'm refering to is anything that holds loot. Containers, Ammo Boxes, Fuel Tanks. This is what you are after when you PvP a ship. If their last life Adjustors, Brakes, Wings and what not break so be it. It's about containers that hold loot. I don't want to throw away my effort if I was to encounter a player like this.

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Element destruction = More mining grind. Ive lost most of the players playing this already...

 

I myself am so burnt out from mining ive taken a break (15 accounts, 6 subs). Just add a source of mining automation and renewable tiling, this would introduce a good sink and encourage tile and territory warfare. As it stands there is no need to ever fight for a tile as itll be mined in hours. 

 

Rest of the changes are gold. 

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8 minutes ago, ShibbyGuy said:

So if I intentionally go out and blow up my containers and such to put it on it's last life to put on my hauler or pvp ship. That's not a low-key grief? Player's will do this to get a last laugh in PvP because they lost. It's as if they deleted the items while you were fighting them. Understand the griefing side of it yet?

 

Knowing these elements are on there last life would also maybe make players risk them on a PvP ship right.... even if you don't force the last life. When you go to PvP with them and lose the other player loses their effort to obtain loot, not to just let it disappear like the player throwing it away themselves.

 

What I'm refering to is anything that holds loot. Containers, Ammo Boxes, Fuel Tanks. This is what you are after when you PvP a ship. If their last life Adjustors, Brakes, Wings and what not break so be it. It's about containers that hold loot. I don't want to throw away my effort if I was to encounter a player like this.

It's a sandbox game, and I feel you are vastly over estimating the people who will do this. And if pvpers do this they most likely gonna get rolled. And in pvp fights let me tell you, not everything is 100% damaged. There will be loot to go around.

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10 minutes ago, xxAmonxx said:

Element destruction = More mining grind. Ive lost most of the players playing this already...

 

I myself am so burnt out from mining ive taken a break (15 accounts, 6 subs). Just add a source of mining automation and renewable tiling, this would introduce a good sink and encourage tile and territory warfare. As it stands there is no need to ever fight for a tile as itll be mined in hours. 

 

Rest of the changes are gold. 

JC has talked about giving tiles a bonus, and the ability to get (smaller) amounts of ore thru automation.  So there is hope in that regard. And territories and space stations need to get SERIOUS buffs or else there is no reason to build them outside the blue circle. 

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1 minute ago, JohnnyTazer said:

It's a sandbox game, and I feel you are vastly over estimating the people who will do this. And if pvpers do this they most likely gonna get rolled. And in pvp fights let me tell you, not everything is 100% damaged. There will be loot to go around.

Again you miss the point...

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