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Let's talk DU quits

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currently pvp is in DU:
Bug use FTW !
stacking of several engines into each other!
and where is the relation please!
who XS core ships easy can kill an L core ship !!???

pvp in DU is the last scrap
¬† take aim at the ship and keep firing until the enemy ship is destroyed wow what a performance ūüėāūüėāūü§¶‚ôāÔłŹ
no target tracking or manual alignment necessary only:
ship targets and analyse, then only open fire and walk afk until the target is destroyed lol

 

nice pvp ūüėāūüėāūü§£ūü§£ūü§£

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12 minutes ago, Anderson Williams said:

I reiterate my last statement again. Watch the roundtable... And give it a chance, give the pvpers a chance. :)

I honestly have low expectations for this roundtable to be anything but a back rubbing exercise for the pewpew brigade and not bring anything constructive outside of cater to the desire to make the game about PVP but I'll watch the VOD in the hopes to be surprised.

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Only need to look at Worlds Adrift's player  bleed to see the fate of an MMO that has too little content, chooses PvP focused community as the "advisers", and has massive future promises (territory control, and new regions in the case of Worlds Adrift and here).

 

WA even had the same PvP problems of time to kills being too short (especially for level of grind), building/design aesthetics being a PvP disadvantage, and over engine-ing ships being the meta.

 

Also had the same issue of being a game that advertised as being about more than PvP.  Just to have dev focus and obsess on PvP.   (Along with the PvP community chasing out other communities, and lack of nonPvP updates causing those that aren’t  concern about PvP/being hunted to walk away as well).

 

‚ÄĒ‚ÄĒ‚ÄĒ‚ÄĒ

 

it’s like the Devs didn’t  bother to analyze what other and especially similar companies have done recently.  

 

Especially in this game’s cause because they have truly atrocious design insight/skill.  demonstrated by believing That each tier of ore has 5x difficulty, a 2 year puzzle getting solved in 2 weeks (believing players won’t use tools available to them is an absurd design oversight), and being surprised at how quickly players can grind through industry/to space/optimal builds (mmo players are expert grinders there aren’t any loops in this game to surprise anyone).

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The Worlds Adrift devs made the same big mistake the DU devs are making now.  They focused on PVP without giving players a reason to PVP.   On top of that, there were no safe zones and your ship carried everything you had when it went down.  The PVPers defended the devs right up until the lights went out. 

 

PVP is needed in DU if for nothing else than to provide a materials sink but most of the player base will continue to ignore it until there is something to fight for. 

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6 minutes ago, Anomaly said:

PVP is needed in DU if for nothing else than to provide a materials sink but most of the player base will continue to ignore it until there is something to fight for. 

 

It's stil interesting to realize NQ actually made "giving players something to fight over" a prime reason to limit Industry to static cores.. As in their literal reasoning for this..

Having slow, massive industrial ships in space with the potential of  a lot of valuable cargo was not something NQ considered "something to fight over".

 

Now, after the fact, I'd say that the sheer mass of Industry elements and the mass of the containers needed to run it alone are reason enough to keep industry planet side but NQ never actually considered that as such, at least not ever in a public sense.

 

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19 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:

I'm really happy to discover this thread with a new recruit at NQ to take note of our various feedback.
 

Before answering the main question of this topic. I also think it's vital that NQ play their game with the players. Some kind of event where the devs would fight against the players for example would be beneficial for the dev team and also to keep the game alive.
 

To come back to the subject, I do not intend to stop playing and stop support the game. On the other hand, even if I spoke about this game to my friends, I did not actively solicit them to bring them in (despite I still have free beta keys!).
 

Why didn't I bring all my friends over ?
 

The one and only reason is the lack of PvP.
Okay, the current balancing isn't the friendliest and most seller, but a bad meta isn't a reason for not having PvP.
 

It’s very comfortable to have safe zones in the game. We’re not questioning that choice.
But why the hell are we not allowed to be just one area with resources of exclusive interest to PvP ?
 

My friends aren't creative, they won't come to the game to build buildings, or build ships, or do LUA.
On the other hand if they come, they will mine, will manufacture factories and the elements and all that is necessary for the practice of the PvP.
 

You don't offer ANYTHING for this kind of player. Once in the game what are they going to do other than get bored?
 

Even the exploration is pointless, all the planets are bland and without difficulties or peculiarities. The scientific reality of the known universe is beyond even the imagination that NQ has shown to date !
 

NQ give us a planet without the 2.5 SU safe zone and jamed radar, with resources exclusive to it. And you will see or you would have seen a whole bunch of happy players on the game. Big pitched battles, blockades, logistics, mercenarism, piracy… Here is all that could have done the daily life of a large number player in the game. Here's what NQ has miss through since the September launch.
 

Of course this is the reason why my friends are not in the game.
 

But this is also the case for players with whom we have been able to play, who have discovered the game and withdrawn out of boredom.
 

The game need PvP

Very well written and I fully agree. It's the same for me, I don't try to bring friends atm as they will get bored.

 

We don't ask to turn alioth to PVP etc. The game needs a safe zone for new players to grow in and for those who don't care about PVP. 3 planets and space between them is fine. The T4/T5 etc ores should be the PVP areas, no safety there, wild west. Get us some drama-lama !

 

 

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Am I the only one that thinks that making an MMO for "builders" is mission impossible ? (I am not talking SecondLife and sexual minorities etc)

 

Like, doesn't matter how much resources you allocate to adding new features for building. There will always gonna be other games that are fresh and interesting and builders will wanna try that one out as nothing of the MMO part really matters for them other than "showing off".

 

Currently the PVP guys are not interested and not trying the game due to lack of pvp, builder guys leave as they "got enough of it".  The technical difficulties involved in making the building process work in MMO just make the process slower than in a non-mmo project so DU has a hard time keeping up.

 

Building ships etc that what makes the DU unique, there was no MMO that allowed for that but it's not the building part that's a gem. It's the MMO part IHMO.

 

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1 hour ago, XKentX said:

Am I the only one that thinks that making an MMO for "builders" is mission impossible ?

I definitely disagree, and I feel the stats available are fairly clear. 

 

Minecraft is still growing in popularity (24 million copies in a year alone...far more players than DU will attract across its entire lifetime). 

 

In other words, more people bought Minecraft in this last year than have ever signed up for Eve Online, by a massive margin. 

 

Yes, it being in a persistent online context is a very attractive feature for creative players and builders. This idea that a builder game can't be a success because there's just not enough to do or there's not enough interested players is not grounded in any real evidence. 

 

One of the most argued things on this forum is PvP -- if it were really so obvious that a builder MMO is "impossible" or inherently boring, this wouldn't even be a discussion. 

 

It's up to NQ to understand how these demographics work -- and that you aren't going to capture both the hardcore PvP demographic and the creative builder demographic in your first-ever title as a game designer.  

 

This mis-match of genres is a big reason people quit -- we all know there are lots of PvP players and lots of creative players out there....but both living happily in the same game? It's extra complexity that DU just doesn't need on top of its mountain of technical and design debt. 

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10 minutes ago, michaelk said:

<snip to reserve space>

You make a valid point and I tend to agree with you. I don't know the numbers etc for mincraft as I have never tried it. If that thing still grows then it can be that builders MMO can work - I just never been in such games so have no clue. Isn't Mincraft a shard based thing with wipes and not a fully fledged MMO ? EVE is MMO without wipes etc.

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DU without PVP would have a good chance to succeed.

DU with only PVP would not stand a chance.

 

Both builders and those seeking to focus on combat need to have a place in the game but when it comes down to it, without builders there is nothing to shoot and if we were to believe the most heard arguments from those who want to pewpew, if they do not get access to options to kill those who are non combattant, they would not have a game.

 

Where is the players who understand that if you want to focus on fights, you need to go out and find them, you need to accept that a lot of that will be "by appointment". DU will always see offense be favored over offense for good reason. Without something to defend there is nothing to build an offense against. "PVPers" should realize they are dependent on those who build and create, especially if and when you seem to focus your effort on access to that group of players.

 

It just feel like for many  it's not about the fights, it's about killing and looting someone. You'd probably be better of hanging around nullsec gates in EVE if that is what you are after. DU is not about incidental PVP, it is about players building their communities and in that context interacting with each other, if need be and if all else fails by force. And yes, there will always be those who have a different view and that is fine. But if those groups get the upper hand, the game is doomed as they will just destroy what is there and be left with.. nothing.

 

When the best defense is to directly vector into someone approaching you and see them generally move away as quickly as possible it's obvious that it's not about being part of the game, it's about killing whatever you can without any meaning or purpose to it and running when there is even a chance of losing.

 

DU is not a PVP centric game and I can only hope NQ never gives in to those that seem to think they can make it such as that will IMO certainly have one outcome and that the end of DU.

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15 hours ago, IvanGrozniy said:

NQ, especially JC keeps throwing around statements such as:  "we expected people to get to space from starting planet in X days"

What's the source for that quote? And what conditions was that 'get to space from starting planet' timeframe under?

 

When I first started playing, it took me maybe two days to get to space and that was with building my own industry up from nothing with just sanctuary plot resources, no market involved.

 

It seems that if one bought the space engine+fuel essentials from market, one could get to space in 10-15 minutes from first logging in...

 

I guess the devs don't play their own game.

 

oh wait. They do 'play' it, but only with godmode creative accounts and giving themselves everything.

 

What I really want to see is the NQ staff going through the full scale effort of assembling a district + market via mining and constructing the parts, no admin give commands involved, and then ask themselves if that is really the gameplay experience they want everyone to have.

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1 minute ago, Emptiness said:

What's the source for that quote?

It was mentioned repeatedly before things went south and NQ needed to put plan B into action which included the need to make the game "more accessible"

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Just now, blazemonger said:

It was mentioned repeatedly before things went south and NQ needed to put plan B into action which included the need to make the game "more accessible"

Is there a source for that quote, and can you give me a link to said source? Or is it in the mythical NDA forums that Must Not Ever See The Light Of Day Or Else? (this last sentence is to be read as sarcastically as you can)

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i'm currently one of two who still play, from former 5 Guys. so that is a view from a small org/group with some freetime for playing while working and having families.

 

the issue why those 3 quit was due to lack of possibility to help our small org with limited time to spare.

 

first it startet well and it was fun exploring how to build and fly, we even managed to pack our stuff and haul it to the moon above sanctuary. where we build our first org base on our org territory.

then we started to scale up our factory to produce our basic needs.

 

thats when the first guys started struggeling. when i, the main factory guy, wasn't online they struggled/were hampered with even starting to expand the production, because it would take to much time to figure out the correct linking and they feared they could make changes which would kill other processes. they did know how the factory was designed, but still wouldn't touch it, because they had no real grasp of how it was connected and just wanted to play and build instead of following purple lines to be up to date on recent changes. the problem is that it is very time consuming if you just have 1 to 3 hours play time before RL kicks back in to invest half of that time telling purple lines apart. i played factorio with the same guys and with the same time constrains and they hadn't those issues there figuring out how the factory was setup and what needed to be modfied for a better output.

So in the end, from their point of view, they had one less task in which they could be useful to our small org.

 

then there was mining resources and scanning for them. which had its charm building ships for it to mine resources and scan for big nodes of ore. but logging in when you just have 1h play time that day and the only thing to do is mining wasn't that joy sparking. usually the searching was fun, the mining was not. specializing in mining was kind of underwhelming, instead of being able to cut the mining time by harvesting larger chunks and have more time with the other members building and expanding, the mining time did not change by putting skill progress into it. and since they where specialized in mining now, their main task in game was to login, search next mineral node, dig there and never see the sky again till they log out, because it takes so long.

here a type of boost would help, like the xp boost in other mmos, just tailored to mining. maybe 5 times the chunk size mined for the first hour of playtime a time, here i'm not talking about an equivalent of the mining efficiency skill, rather something like dig tool optimization but for mining.

after that, the only motivation was, that they could provide the T1/2 ores for us to from time to time build on something together (in the mean time the non miners would more or less wait, since we wanted some building time together and not stamp them as only useful for ore mining).

so that worked for a while until we needed higher tier ores.

we created a ship which should have been capable reaching thades (it was! yay!). the flight took one and a half hour, where we just did nothing, just starred at the quiet annoying stardust racing lines. and that was one day of playtime gone. just flying from a to b. since 2 needed to go off, we all went off after parking the ship somewhere safe, since we didn't want to do new areas without our mates and there was nothing else we could do and surrogating somewhere was not an option.

next time we hopped over to the moons of thades, since we where not comfortable to land in atmosphere with the ship already loaded. so we did the hopping and mining for the next 2-3 game sessions when most of us where online at the same time. flying back was ... one guy (me) was doing it alone, since there is no point for all being online at the same time doing nothing. so it took me watching one soccer game (2x45min + 15min break) to fly it back to our base.

next goal was warp drive and cells for skipping doing nothing. after upgrading our ship with our new tech, we were ready to start our warp jump to talemai, so we can explore a new place and build a small outpost there. we were lucky we bought enough warp cells for the jump back, but ended being a bit disappointed by how little we were able to bring back. so visiting other planets just for seeing them was off the list at that point. flying there with space engines would be too time consuming and hard edge boring and it wouldn't be a time spend well and fun, when you have little time to spare and chill with your friends and enjoy doing stuff. warping was also not an option, because it was somehow costly, which is ok, but not very rewarding, since the added value you can bring back is not worth the costs.

here again its the time consuming which kills the fun. especially our miners would have been happy to jump to other planets and being, in their eyes, helpful again in progressing our org by providing valuable resources.

there should be a better way of getting around the system. i understand, as was mentioned in an interview, that the 29999 km/h limitation is a technology one, but there should be a way between space engine and warp. warp is fine for avoiding pvp and should be seen as that, a costly way of avoiding pvp. maybe introduce a new engine which can only be activated at 29 Mm/h and would take 5-15min to jump to a new system out of the server limits (like warp) and introduce a kind of field which can disable the engine when it enters it and throws you back into normal space (so pvp would still happen). maybe another system to mark targets which enter the engines mode when you are in radar range and show the fly path as a line and you could share it with a friend in the pvp zone so he could move his jump disruptor field on that line to catch the target.

in my opinion some sort of that would reduce the useless time sink which kills the fun for our kind of player type.

 

being a merchant was also not an option, since it suffers from the exact same useless time sinks. we don't mind getting into pvp fights when we transport cargo through the pvp zone, sometimes it would be quite appreciated and fun, but the time sink flying from planet system to planet system makes it zero enjoyable to compare prices and transport goods from market to market. i mean there is a need for merchants transporting goods between planet systems, since some planets lack some goods which are available on, for example, alioth on the market. but warping is to expensive (at least for a small org like ours) and it avoids pvp which strips off the excitement and danger of doing it, which also reduces the felt accomplishment after doing such a delivery successfully to a planet in a pvp area.

 

so in conclusion, the getting from a to b is a huge problem for us and its hard to motivate our friends who quited, because they don't see how they can help us and even when, it takes to long for them to have enough time after that to spend with us. mining takes to long for getting enough with small amount of time and the specialisation into that isn't worth it at all (like i mentioned bigger sphere size would be more fun than more ore per chunk. maybe a skill after mining efficiency 5 (30+ days skilltime till here), so a real specialisation). and the commute between planets is just another time sink with little reward (space engine takes waaaaaay to long and warp cells takes way to long for a small group to gather the money for a mining trip and strips of pvp).

 

 

P.S.: Reporting Abuse ingame (through the menu buttons) is not possible. would have done it a few times where player constructs where build inside markets (even after m15) but it leads to a page where there is no option/possibility of reporting abuse.

 

P.P.S.: for the lack of communication part mentioned in some posts here. maybe stop doing a discord only/first approach. the best keeping the community up to date work i personally experienced by a video game producer was factorio with their indepth friday features throughout their beta phase. you can still look them all up on their website for some inspiration on how to keep the community passively involved into the games development.

 

P.P.P.S.: if someone urges to know why i had so much spare time to write that much ... was flying from sanctuary to thades ... and am still flying ... ūüėē

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Reading through a lot of the responses I think one of the issues with du is that PvP is so new to DU. Being one of the last pillars to be introduced to the game a lot of the old vocal alpha players are strongly against pvp. It makes sense. For years the Kickstarter backers have been playing Minecraft in space and have built their own image of what the game should be in their heads. 
 

To me the biggest issue with DU is the lack of endgame content. Without a competitive advantage or side of the game there’s no point for emergent gameplay and it comes down to discord pvp. People resort to drama when they are bored.
 

Every part of the game is important and there needs to be a blend of play styles in order for the game to succeed. As the game is right now you can get late game in a single day of playing and sit on a mega node chewing a hematite vein and make crazy amounts of money. 
 

So you are now 15 hours into this game you can afford anything you want,¬†what do you do now? The builders will build, the miners will mine, the factory boys will factory. The pvpers have a lack of content and to me pvp is the ‚Äúendgame‚ÄĚ . pvp creates a need for builders a need for miners a need for industry a need for creatives and basically all pillars¬†lead to the consumers which are the pvpers.

 

some of what @blazemonger said is right pvpers need all the other pillars to work

 

what @Anderson Williams Said is also right. pvp is fun in its current state and just need a tweak/more incentive to do it. There are too many armchair generals who haven’t even tried it

 

As a leader of a small pvp org. NQ needs to give me a reason to go to war. Give me a reason to buy large quantities of items. Give me a reason to make allies and enemies. Give me a reason keep playing this game.

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37 minutes ago, Mulligan said:

Reading through a lot of the responses I think one of the issues with du is that PvP is so new to DU. Being one of the last pillars to be introduced to the game a lot of the old vocal alpha players are strongly against pvp. It makes sense. For years the Kickstarter backers have been playing Minecraft in space and have built their own image of what the game should be in their heads. 
 

To me the biggest issue with DU is the lack of endgame content. Without a competitive advantage or side of the game there’s no point for emergent gameplay and it comes down to discord pvp. People resort to drama when they are bored.
 

Every part of the game is important and there needs to be a blend of play styles in order for the game to succeed. As the game is right now you can get late game in a single day of playing and sit on a mega node chewing a hematite vein and make crazy amounts of money. 
 

So you are now 15 hours into this game you can afford anything you want,¬†what do you do now? The builders will build, the miners will mine, the factory boys will factory. The pvpers have a lack of content and to me pvp is the ‚Äúendgame‚ÄĚ . pvp creates a need for builders a need for miners a need for industry a need for creatives and basically all pillars¬†lead to the consumers which are the pvpers.

 

some of what @blazemonger said is right pvpers need all the other pillars to work

 

what @Anderson Williams Said is also right. pvp is fun in its current state and just need a tweak/more incentive to do it. There are too many armchair generals who haven’t even tried it

 

As a leader of a small pvp org. NQ needs to give me a reason to go to war. Give me a reason to buy large quantities of items. Give me a reason to make allies and enemies. Give me a reason keep playing this game.

Truly truly i tell you once atmo and territory warfare comes and there is limited or no safezone besides the current blue circle then endgame will double and it will be fantastic and content will skyrocket. so NQ if you read this i am ready for this update all the mining i do is to prep for this but rn its stale. if people dont want to fight they wont. theres no reason to slow boat (warping is cheap) theres no reason to fight right now except to test your ship. Fighting or waiting for PvP or blockading should be a waste of time as nothing is earned. there is way too big a safe zone for people to hide in

 

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9 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

DU without PVP would have a good chance to succeed.

DU with only PVP would not stand a chance.

 

 

This is so laughable I had to stop reading.  

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1 hour ago, Mulligan said:

some of what @blazemonger said is right pvpers need all the other pillars to work

what @Anderson Williams Said is also right. pvp is fun in its current state and just need a tweak/more incentive to do it. There are too many armchair generals who haven’t even tried it

 

Thanks and I know.. Frankly, puttying aside the smack talk, he may be one of the few who's comments I value enough to consider.

 

 

  

18 minutes ago, JohnnyTazer said:

This is so laughable I had to stop reading.  

That's a shame but understandable considering  the shoe is frequently on the other foot regarding this style of commenting, which was kind of the point of posting it.

 

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1 hour ago, Mulligan said:

Reading through a lot of the responses I think one of the issues with du is that PvP is so new to DU. Being one of the last pillars to be introduced to the game a lot of the old vocal alpha players are strongly against pvp. It makes sense. For years the Kickstarter backers have been playing Minecraft in space and have built their own image of what the game should be in their heads. 
 

To me the biggest issue with DU is the lack of endgame content. Without a competitive advantage or side of the game there’s no point for emergent gameplay and it comes down to discord pvp. People resort to drama when they are bored.
 

Every part of the game is important and there needs to be a blend of play styles in order for the game to succeed. As the game is right now you can get late game in a single day of playing and sit on a mega node chewing a hematite vein and make crazy amounts of money. 
 

So you are now 15 hours into this game you can afford anything you want,¬†what do you do now? The builders will build, the miners will mine, the factory boys will factory. The pvpers have a lack of content and to me pvp is the ‚Äúendgame‚ÄĚ . pvp creates a need for builders a need for miners a need for industry a need for creatives and basically all pillars¬†lead to the consumers which are the pvpers.

 

some of what @blazemonger said is right pvpers need all the other pillars to work

 

what @Anderson Williams Said is also right. pvp is fun in its current state and just need a tweak/more incentive to do it. There are too many armchair generals who haven’t even tried it

 

As a leader of a small pvp org. NQ needs to give me a reason to go to war. Give me a reason to buy large quantities of items. Give me a reason to make allies and enemies. Give me a reason keep playing this game.

This a thousand times.  There are currently some exploits that need to be fixed, but once that's done all that's missing is just a dash of incentive, and I feel like the game will have emergent gameplay/endgame content.  Something simple to fight over in the pvp zone would go a long way.

 

As has been mentioned, there is currently a base of players who love the minecraft aspect of the game, but adding the endgame content/pvp will benefit them too by providing more customers and player-driven economy.  In order to keep that group happy, I wouldn't blame NQ if they left in a big safe zone so that you don't get shot at if you don't want to.

 

I feel like NQ has the goal of an emergent pvp endgame in mind, and perhaps just wants to make sure they get it right, fix bugs, optimize their server, etc. before they put in the required incentive.

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1 minute ago, milkshake said:

I feel like NQ has the goal of an emergent pvp endgame in mind, and perhaps just wants to make sure they get it right, fix bugs, optimize their server, etc. before they put in the required incentive.

 

There is no "endgame" in a sandbox MMO. The purpose of DU is society/community building. Part of that is conflict and in that respect combat is introduced to the game.

Conflict/combat/PVP (call it what you like) is not, should not and is clearly stated as not being a goal in and of itself in DU. It's a tool in the arsenal of options players have to achieve their goals.

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4 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

Thanks and I know.. Frankly, puttying aside the smack talk, he may be one of the few who's comments I value enough to consider.

 

 

  

That's a shame but understandable considering  the shoe is frequently on the other foot regarding this style of commenting, which was kind of the point of posting it.

 

Thats why droves of people are leaving, not joing, or waiting to come back because of the PvP, or lack thereof.  If there was no pvp it would they would just rent servers, and have community ran servers, like tons of other games.  I'm sorry but after seeing one or 2 ships, or visiting someones box house, where is the appeal?  There isn't PVE.  This game was always pitched as the players run, and in turn, compete against eachother.  Game will/is dying if the pvp fails to deliver.  Just the way it is.

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9 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

There is no "endgame" in a sandbox MMO. The purpose of DU is society/community building. Part of that is conflict and in that respect combat is introduced to the game.

Conflict/combat/PVP (call it what you like) is not, should not and is clearly stated as not being a goal in and of itself in DU. It's a tool in the arsenal of options players have to achieve their goals.

thats false.  If someone wants to be a pirate, or at least attempt that can be their end goal game.  You dont get to dictate what is someone's end game goal is.

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4 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

There is no "endgame" in a sandbox MMO. The purpose of DU is society/community building. Part of that is conflict and in that respect combat is introduced to the game.

Conflict/combat/PVP (call it what you like) is not, should not and is clearly stated as not being a goal in and of itself in DU. It's a tool in the arsenal of options players have to achieve their goals.

Right, "endgame" isn't exactly the right word.  Just a driving force for competition that keeps the game interesting and keeps generating new stories.  Or as the other poster said, one of several possible "endgames."

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Just now, milkshake said:

Right, "endgame" isn't exactly the right word.  Just a driving force for competition that keeps the game interesting and keeps generating new stories.

Which a majority of the time, seems to be some form of comptetion, pvp, combat, whatever words you want to throw in there.  

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