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Zephos

System enforced courier feature

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There are certain things that a completely free market in DU just won't work for because there are no laws or law enforcement, and it isn't likely that player created orgs will be able to fulfill those roles.

 

This is why certain functions need to be created to allow the free market to operate in predictable manner. One problem this will solve is when you want something delivered. 

 

If you buy something from a foreign market, you should be able to also create a delivery order that another player can fulfill and get paid for. The delivery would be made from one market to another (whichever market is closest to you, or that you choose) and upon delivery funds will be transferred. 

 

Now, here is the crucial bit: the person delivering the item just gets an anonymous package, and has no idea what it is and that item is completely useless to anyone who isn't the actual owner (person who bought it). The only thing that needs to be known is the weight and volume of the item, so the person delivering it can make sure they can carry it. After a certain time passes, and the item isn't delivered, the order resets and someone else can take it.

 

This kind of system would ensure ways for the free market to function with stability.

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Eve had a system like this, courier contracts, and they were extremely easy to scam people with :P

 

On first glance, it seems like a fair and safe way to get your goods transported for you, but that's only if the person putting up the courier contract is acting in good faith.

 

If they fill a cargo container with garbage, put a high insurance price on the package, and then set the destination to somewhere that is extremely unsafe, then they are pretty much guaranteed to make a profit from the insurance claim alone. 

 

I would do that in Eve all the time, load up containers with garbage and set the destination to null-sec. Sure there were times when a pilot actually managed to ship my garbage package, but for the most part, I was making 100-150million from the insurance claims on all the lost packages. 

 

So I agree, there should be a courier contract system in DU ? 

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33 minutes ago, yamamushi said:

Eve had a system like this, courier contracts, and they were extremely easy to scam people with :P

 

On first glance, it seems like a fair and safe way to get your goods transported for you, but that's only if the person putting up the courier contract is acting in good faith.

 

If they fill a cargo container with garbage, put a high insurance price on the package, and then set the destination to somewhere that is extremely unsafe, then they are pretty much guaranteed to make a profit from the insurance claim alone. 

 

I would do that in Eve all the time, load up containers with garbage and set the destination to null-sec. Sure there were times when a pilot actually managed to ship my garbage package, but for the most part, I was making 100-150million from the insurance claims on all the lost packages. 

 

So I agree, there should be a courier contract system in DU ? 

 

Not trying to rehash our discord discussion, but others won't see that so let me address your points here as well:

 

1) There shouldn't be any kind of insurance system at all. Delivery orders just reset if they are not completed after a certain time limit. I know this isn't ideal in terms of realism but I think it is a necessary concession to avoid a system that can be exploited.

 

2) The only possible destinations should be public markets, which are not overly dangerous and are in zones that don't allow pvp. This means that NQ will have to make permanent public markets, but again I think it is a necessary concession.

 

3) %100 sandbox will never work, some things need to be implemented in the game.

 

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You mean the contents of the container is unuseable by anyone? So the guy transporting it can't run with it? 

 

That might work - but it'll then only work for the public markets on alioth and ppl won't really use it anywhere else.  So why not do this on a universal scale and implement a mechanic which will work for everyrhing, anywhere, to all destinations.

 

Because you need a courier system everywhere. 

Can you be scammed? Sure, such is life. Ppl always scream "protect me from scam" when all they have to do is think on their own. With that they avoid 99% of scams - it still might happen but then ppl will make orgs such as red/black frog just like in eve who are trustworthy.....That's the sandbox approach 

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2 hours ago, Lethys said:

You mean the contents of the container is unuseable by anyone? So the guy transporting it can't run with it? 

 

That might work - but it'll then only work for the public markets on alioth and ppl won't really use it anywhere else.  So why not do this on a universal scale and implement a mechanic which will work for everyrhing, anywhere, to all destinations.

 

Because you need a courier system everywhere. 

Can you be scammed? Sure, such is life. Ppl always scream "protect me from scam" when all they have to do is think on their own. With that they avoid 99% of scams - it still might happen but then ppl will make orgs such as red/black frog just like in eve who are trustworthy.....That's the sandbox approach 

This is the entire concept of the game.

 

you are meant to be able to do nearly everything without NQ intervention, and be able to think for yourself. Anything else and it is not a true player driven single shard sandbox mmo. 

 

I am fairly certain that NQ will implement a couriering system almost exactly like EVE online’s system, which has worked for 16 years

 

my two cents

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Systems for gameplay mechanics are very difficult to create since they have to work well with the other systems AND fit in with the overall design goals of the game.

 

In an player-run game, players should be empowered to create their own world. DU does this with player made constructs, the future RDMS (Rights and Duties Management System) and player run markets. The emphasis here is on "emergent" gameplay. If a system restricts players in some way, it is preventing an avenue of "emergence". Sometimes this is desired: for example a safezone is restrictive, but placing it around the arkship prevents completely new players from being killed outright when they step off the arkship.

 

A generic contract system could be used to create custom contracts that can move quanta around but otherwise have little effect. A broken contract would be marked as such and could be used as evidence to demand compensation by using the local player organisation as the enforcer. This immediately has the "emergent gameplay" that contracts are not worth the inventory space outside the influence of a player run law enforcement body. But those that maintain the law have more stable economies as contracts are actually enforced by the players. And even then the contract can be evaluated on a case by case basis which may prevent scamming in those lawful areas (or not, depending on the players).

 

Give the players the power to choose how to play the game, don't let the game play the players.

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When there is high liquidity in the markets there will be no need to courier system. In order to make the player-driven markets more liquid we just need market makers(MMs). And I myself creating the first highly liquid ores and pures markets very soon on planet Jago, hopefully other planets as well. (If anyone asks what is a market maker in DU, it simply means, a market user putting buy and sell orders at the same time in same product with a spread and with high quantity)

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2 hours ago, nzwoodturner said:

This is the entire concept of the game.

 

you are meant to be able to do nearly everything without NQ intervention, and be able to think for yourself. Anything else and it is not a true player driven single shard sandbox mmo. 

 

I am fairly certain that NQ will implement a couriering system almost exactly like EVE online’s system, which has worked for 16 years

 

my two cents

Exaclty my thoughts and words. 

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For some reason, I never considered that NQ would have some kind of a courier system running a delivery service for everyone.  I was under the understanding we players were to set up our own businesses and determine how they were run ourselves.  Did they ever say they were actually going to add that kind of system in anywhere?  I'd love to read more about their plans.

 

Also,  I never got into EVE so if ya'll think that's how it will be, can someone tell me more about how it worked? 

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Wouldn't the mission system Novaquark plans to create cover courier missions?

 

Quote

The "quest market" or "job market" is something we are still working on. The idea is that it will be closely linked to the contract system that will allow any player/org to specify a two sides agreement where "you get this if you do that". We would like that the expressivity of these system could be rich enough to express much more complex jobs that just "get me some X". So, it will be more sophisticated than the passive market way of declaring that you need a particular asset by setting a buy order. Our long term vision is that this job market could be the first thing you look at as a new player, with jobs ranked in difficulty so that you can decide what level of risk you are willing to take.        Source - Kickstarter AMA

 

It could work similar to the Market Units. There could be a Mission Kiosk where players can take courier missions. When a player accepts the courier job, they are given access to take a storage container, that they can  put in their inventory or ship. Only players with RDMS access can see the contents or open that storage container. Payment for the mission is in escrow, so once the package is deposited into the destination Kiosk, the player can collect the funds.

 

There will always be some risk, but that's apart of the game.

 

 

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On 5/29/2019 at 1:18 AM, Zephos said:

There are certain things that a completely free market in DU just won't work for because there are no laws or law enforcement, and it isn't likely that player created orgs will be able to fulfill those roles.

 

This is why certain functions need to be created to allow the free market to operate in predictable manner. One problem this will solve is when you want something delivered. 

 

If you buy something from a foreign market, you should be able to also create a delivery order that another player can fulfill and get paid for. The delivery would be made from one market to another (whichever market is closest to you, or that you choose) and upon delivery funds will be transferred. 

 

Now, here is the crucial bit: the person delivering the item just gets an anonymous package, and has no idea what it is and that item is completely useless to anyone who isn't the actual owner (person who bought it). The only thing that needs to be known is the weight and volume of the item, so the person delivering it can make sure they can carry it. After a certain time passes, and the item isn't delivered, the order resets and someone else can take it.

 

This kind of system would ensure ways for the free market to function with stability.

I was thinking of a system where the courier has to put up a payment as collateral to cover the value of the item if not delivered, although this would just paint a target on the couriers back as pirates would know the exact value of cargo.

 

Your idea with the anonymous aspect of things is quite clever. You are coming at it from an item quantity aspect whereas i was thinking item quality or item value wise.

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14 hours ago, Belispeak said:

I was thinking of a system where the courier has to put up a payment as collateral to cover the value of the item if not delivered, although this would just paint a target on the couriers back as pirates would know the exact value of cargo.

Not exactly. In EVE similar courier system exists, and people who make expensive courier contracts usually accept contract from one character and deliver them with another, then switch cargo back to first one and complete delivery. That is a simple way to hide a route and delivery from direct tracking. 

Also this may lead to some kind of delivery corporations where there would be some managers, that take contracts and couriers that perform actual delivery. 

 

On 5/30/2019 at 11:46 AM, Dhara said:

Also,  I never got into EVE so if ya'll think that's how it will be, can someone tell me more about how it worked? 

It's pretty simple. In EVE courier contacts can be limited to anyone, some particular character, your own ally or corporation (not sure about external ones). Then you just select drop off location, time for contract to expire and time for contract to be delivered after it's accepted, payment for the work and collateral . When contract is created the payment is deducted from your wallet, once contract is accepted by courier - collateral is deducted from his account. If for some reasons contract is not delivered to target station in time - you get collateral and payment is returned to your wallet. Otherwise - you get your items and courier has collateral returned to his wallet. 

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19 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:

That does not sound like what's being said here? 

If courier system is not already in game I wouldn't rely much on devblog that is 4 years old. Solution might have changed since that time ;) 

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The space is extremely wide, and therefore pirates can seldom attack us.

I think the space won't be such dangerous that courier system may work well.

In addition to that, space near the station should be protected

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I can see a lot of issues by allowing players freely to do their own stuff in Dual Universe but that is the point of this game. From developers perspective there should be implemented all tools necessary for that like an automated or manual rating system where game saves all deliveries made and gives rating to any player hauler and if someone needs cargo delivered he can always allow only 100% rated players to accept that contract and obviously prices would be higher and it might be real occupation in-game. Also manual rating system for haulers to see how trustworthy they are so players rate other players for different actions and everyone can see who is who.

Also if there is a way to steal stuff like cargo or constructs then there should be a way to detect stolen stuff and return to it's rightful owner, also there should be a way to sell it on black markets or even remove stolen tag with right tools and proper talents, then players need to be able to run those black markets as well as legal markets...bottom line - we have no clue what developers have in mind and without knowing that we can't really say anything as so much stuff is tied together here, but if Novaquark want to make Dual Universe fully emergent and player driven they better not make abstract cargo and other shortcuts. If you as a player do not want to fly and pick up your own cargo there should be no safe way to get it and I expect special organizations to do that and they should be trustworthy.

If there is a fight going on for resources between 2+ organizations somewhere far away from main markets I wouldn't want them to order ships and parts from cheapest market and safely get them to combat area without any risk, it should be very very hard to get there and should be a job for best smugglers or even organizations themselves thus splitting their forces and figuring out tactics as if you lose constructs and can't replace them you lose the war.

In the end I think there should be enough players that would like to act like police and enforce laws, devs just need to provide us with proper in-game elements like scanners, stolen good detectors, detention or jail cells etc., I am curious to see how they implement this as this clearly is insanely huge undertaking. 

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On 7/1/2019 at 8:20 AM, Toshimichi said:

The space is extremely wide, and therefore pirates can seldom attack us.

Oh ye of little faith....  haven't you ever heard the expression.... "If you build it, they will come?" 

 

You don't truly believe that just means customers do you?  

 

It's not a matter of 'can' or 'will'....  it's just a matter of 'when' it will happen.  And it will.  

 

You'll run into one of three situations;

  1. Give us your stuff and die.
  2. Give us your stuff and work for us or die.
  3. Die so we can take your stuff (cuz we just can't resist taking your stuff after you're dead!)

Liam Neeson Taken Meme | I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE BUT I WILL FIND YOU... AND I WILL TAKE YOUR STUFF | image tagged in memes,liam neeson taken | made w/ Imgflip meme maker

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2 hours ago, Lachenlaud said:

You'll run into one of three situations;

  1. Give us your stuff and die.
  2. Give us your stuff and work for us or die.
  3. Die so we can take your stuff (cuz we just can't resist taking your stuff after you're dead!)

 

There is a forth situation.

It is called civilization. It is where large groups of people band together, agree to live under a set of rules for the peace and betterment of all.

This will also exist in Dual Universe.

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31 minutes ago, Tordan said:

There is a forth situation.

It is called civilization. It is where large groups of people band together, agree to live under a set of rules for the peace and betterment of all.

This will also exist in Dual Universe.

We can hope. 

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38 minutes ago, Lachenlaud said:

We can hope. 

Oh it will defiantly exist. The real question is how well it grows and persists. Time will tell.

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On 5/29/2019 at 12:23 AM, yamamushi said:

If they fill a cargo container with garbage, put a high insurance price on the package, and then set the destination to somewhere that is extremely unsafe, then they are pretty much guaranteed to make a profit from the insurance claim alone.

It's been a LONG time since I've played Eve.

 

Why are the players allowed to set the value of the item being insured?  Have an "insurance adjuster" (the game) define the value, and charge a fee to insure the container.  The only reason I say, have the game play the insurance adjuster is because no player is going to want to inspect every shipping container and estimate a value.  Let the game do that.   However, possibly create a competing market for "insurance companies" would be and interesting twist...  The player can then decide to purchase insurance from one of the companies, or accept the risk of going without.  The courier wouldn't even need to know if the container was insured.

 

The courier would never know the contents of the container.

 

However, depending upon the destination or distance, make the courier pay a fee as well.  Consider it a "surety bond".   Have that surety bond change in price depending upon the percentage of successfully completed missions, acquired talents, and value of the container.  This way, the courier has skin in the game as well.

 

Insurance companies could be players or orgs as well as a higher priced NQ just to create the market.  They could develop  their own actuarial tables to determine the risk/reward of insuring a package to and from a specific destination.  As well as provide "surety bonds" to be purchased by couriers.

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Rating system is essentially same and much easier to understand and use for everybody. All will depend on player actions but if insurance will come from NPC contracts then it will be abused, if insurance will be done by players then if it will be abused nobody will provide it and there will be no insurance.

You know that in real life insurance companies share data between them and rate all customers to keep track of them as nobody likes to lose money....basically same rating system that we will have in game (I hope) just in Dual Universe all this data will be freely available to everyone to decide if you want to hire person with 50% or 95% rating and pay accordingly, so in the end players will figure out who to trust and who not to by themselves. The game just needs a system to gather and present this data to everyone.

Implementing banking and insurance might sound fun but it is a lot of coding that doesn't really provide anything when we land on arkship on day 1 as we have no money anyway, but as one of future expansions it might work just not from the very beginning.

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I wouldn't discount a feature because its possible to be exploited by players.

 

I agree that some functions aren't going to be something that anyone wants to do.    We already have industries that are managed by the game.  Consider "Escrow".   Escrow companies exist in real life, and could be left up to the players if NQ wanted to.  In DU, escrow is used by every trade between two players.  The "trading window" is the escrow company.  It's a 3rd party entity that holds everything until both parties agree on the release.  Can players be scammed through a basic barter transaction?  Yes.   Does this mean we should prohibit p2p barter?  No.

 

The real question is does "insurance" facilitate commerce and shipping?  Will players be more willing to create a "shipping mission" if they can insure the package?

 

The key is to implement a mechanism that will improve gameplay while limiting the possibility of exploitation.

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