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So, the latest on a partial wipe


Jake Arver
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My largest worry is the people who are paying a monthly subscription. Now If they were to do a wipe that kept Talent Points and BPs then I think that would be fine. There money was not wasted.
My other question is the DACs I believe they were called (Monthly subscription). I would hope we get to use them when we choose and not have them automatically chewed up whether we like it or not.

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17 minutes ago, FryingDoom said:

My largest worry is the people who are paying a monthly subscription. Now If they were to do a wipe that kept Talent Points and BPs then I think that would be fine. There money was not wasted.
My other question is the DACs I believe they were called (Monthly subscription). I would hope we get to use them when we choose and not have them automatically chewed up whether we like it or not.

 

Since its suppose to be a tradeable item, they should never be automatically used.  At least thats how plex in EvE works and its been stated many many times DAC is the equivalent of plex.  Its an inventory item you can put on the market, or then "redeem".  All tho they would need some updates on the UI to show when your sub runs, and such.  NQ is pretty bad at UI stuff so we will see.

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19 minutes ago, VandelayIndustries said:

 

Since its suppose to be a tradeable item, they should never be automatically used.  At least thats how plex in EvE works and its been stated many many times DAC is the equivalent of plex.  Its an inventory item you can put on the market, or then "redeem".  All tho they would need some updates on the UI to show when your sub runs, and such.  NQ is pretty bad at UI stuff so we will see.

Honestly I am worried about NQ rushing to release and so it would be nice to have the option of not using the DACs straight off the bat as I may wait.

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My thought is that, since we have already had 2 partial wipes.  0.23 industry wipe and tis Demeter mining/territory wipe.  They must be discussing a total wipe.  So, the likely scenario's are:

1)  They decided that the potential for new customers far outweighs the potential loss of customers and a full wipe is recommended (possibly the best choice for the game but not for some players)

2)  They decide that they can still get a lot of new customers with a partial wipe plus keep a good amount of old customers with a wipe that leaves some blueprints etc.

3)  They decide they just cant get the game fixed and its never going to be fixed, so dont wipe at all and milk the current base for as long as possible.

 

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4 hours ago, FryingDoom said:

My largest worry is the people who are paying a monthly subscription. Now If they were to do a wipe that kept Talent Points and BPs then I think that would be fine. There money was not wasted.
My other question is the DACs I believe they were called (Monthly subscription). I would hope we get to use them when we choose and not have them automatically chewed up whether we like it or not.

I am paying.  I'm almost 1 month into a 3 month subscription (back after a 9 month break).  I would be happy with a full wipe, no BP nothing.  I think that the knowledge we have would already give us huge head start over any new player.  Right now we are probably about to lose many social structures built by players who have left the game anyway and with some sort of wipe likely, why would anybody commit huge time and resources to a big new project.... unless they can accept they may lose it all.

I do understand the perspective of players who think we are in beta and will feel their work is for nothing.  I just want the game to be the best it can be.  If that means full wipe then so be it.

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If you want a wipe you must also request a talent reset.

 

I may have expressed myself badly. But resetting to 0 is really NO talent point in your talent tree.

 

Doing a wipe won't do any good without it.
My organization will have from day 1 all the talents of industry. The only need will be to grind ore and sell it massively to the bot in order to buy the schematics and build the factories. I give us a few days / week to find an almost identical production capacity on vital items.

 

Of course from the first day we will have pilots with maximum talents for all our trips.

 

Not to mention that we will have all of our very high level PvP skills available as well.

 

A wipe to give a chance to people who wish to take the belateau along the way is a big joke.

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1 hour ago, Knight-Sevy said:

If you want a wipe you must also request a talent reset.

 

I may have expressed myself badly. But resetting to 0 is really NO talent point in your talent tree.

 

Doing a wipe won't do any good without it.
My organization will have from day 1 all the talents of industry. The only need will be to grind ore and sell it massively to the bot in order to buy the schematics and build the factories. I give us a few days / week to find an almost identical production capacity on vital items.

 

Of course from the first day we will have pilots with maximum talents for all our trips.

 

Not to mention that we will have all of our very high level PvP skills available as well.

 

A wipe to give a chance to people who wish to take the belateau along the way is a big joke.

 

I get what you are saying, but a wipe with keeping talents and BP is what most people would be ok with.  As they have paid.  Sadly its NQ's fault for backing themselves into this corner, but it seemed they were close to broke thats why they went to beta (alpha) and charged a sub before they should have.  But the reality is, people did gain billions on exploits.  Even if your org can recoup super fast because of your talents and knowledge, it is seen as "legit" by the greater community and NQ.  So people dont have an issue with that.  And even with a full reset of talents, a bigger organized org that has beta and alpha knowledge, plus alts, will get to 90% of where they were anyway in like 3 months.  The way the talent system is most lvl 5 skills only give u taht extra 5 %.  Its not like EvE where u actually need certain lvl 5 ships to even SIT in a ship, let alone all the other skills to fly it properly.  So keeping talent points on a wipe wont be as bad as you say at all imo.

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36 minutes ago, HangerHangar said:

Would keeping blueprints even happen?   Even an inexperienced MMO player would know to buy up low end bps for sale below market prices on world reset.

When people say keep BP I think they just mean the ones you make yourself.  So, for example you would able able to BP the ship you made.  Or you would be able to BP that Org base that took your 6 months to build etc.  Ones that you purchased from market or another player would not be kept.  At least that's my assumption

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I'm thinking of a scenario in which it was claimed that we, as players, could discover the remains of an ancient culture on alien planets and moons... I'm beginning to think that the beta players could have built up this ancient culture and that there will be a complete wipe at release that builds on this.

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I’d like to see everything wiped except bps, talents and static structures. Everything else should go - quanta, elements (inc elements on static structures), ore, ships. There should also be a ore location shuffle.

 

That achieves the aim of resetting the economy whilst maintaining the large structures that have been built. Those structures don’t offer too much of a head start, certainly small compared to the knowledge and talent head start people will have anyway.

 

I agree that NQ should focus on the future player base (which has to be far far bigger for the game to survive), however I wouldn’t underestimate the importance of keeping existing players happy as word of mouth is an key advertising tool, especially with the types of communities that play this kind of game. 

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Would be fine to reset Talent points. But Blueprints? oof...
Some structures i see as serious artworks, if they would be lost it would be a shame.

And this balance would also only last for a few weeks as creative people will again build outstanding designs which will dominate the market again anyway.
But probably the costs of blueprint would be alot lower as it has to fit the corrected economy.
 

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21 hours ago, VandelayIndustries said:

 

The wipe is coming.  But you keep all your BP and your talent points total will be in a pool to distribute again. 

Don't over estimate the value of retaining BPs to people. First, placing a static construct BP on a different terrain then what it was originally built on is usually ... unsatisfying. Second, the constructs that took a long time to build probably require multi XL containers worth of resources (meganodes [which have gone away] of ores and industry [with skills] to process them ). Also, those that require advance elements or rare ores that may not be available for some time.  As a consequence, third, there are those that will be (or already are) obsolete by time they can be used due to game changes just prior to or even after release (weapon rebalancing or ... brakes anyone?). 

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5 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:

If you want a wipe you must also request a talent reset.

 

I may have expressed myself badly. But resetting to 0 is really NO talent point in your talent tree.

 

Doing a wipe won't do any good without it.
My organization will have from day 1 all the talents of industry. The only need will be to grind ore and sell it massively to the bot in order to buy the schematics and build the factories. I give us a few days / week to find an almost identical production capacity on vital items.

 

Of course from the first day we will have pilots with maximum talents for all our trips.

 

Not to mention that we will have all of our very high level PvP skills available as well.

 

A wipe to give a chance to people who wish to take the belateau along the way is a big joke.

 

I do not disagree with your general thoughts on talent points. A complete and total reset would be optimal from a 'fresh start' perspective and I would support it. That being said, so long as they just didn't have ore bots in the game it would gate your progress based on what the market would bare on your ore selling, you could still grind missions but it would gate you a bit. Another solution to this would be to have asteroids be very few and far between at game launch thus gating ore pace to MU production pacing. 

 

Sadly the whole MU/tax system as setup now doesn't work without ore bots, so I doubt they have the foresight to ever remove ore bots. The points you raise are valid, which is why I support a total game wipe pre-release and total fresh start for everyone. The only people a total fresh start really hurts is the old guard who's entire game concept revolves around positioning themselves to be dominating from day 1 by playing Beta. It would suck for builders too, but with the vertex editor coming and such the pain of reproducing old art should be less.

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I do not see interest in the BP being suppressed on the other hand.
For me it's just gratuitous nastiness to imagine that.


Player side:
- We have the knowledge, an optimized vessel without voxel takes me only a few minutes. We don't need a nice voxel ship.

NQ side:
- What will they say when they have to advertise their games again? The first months we will see EVERYWHERE cubic or voxel-less vessels.

 

Removing player BPs will be a huge pain and I don't see any benefit other than saying "Hey player! Did you spend 100 hours thinking about designing an in-game ship?
Be happy because thanks to our BP wipe you have the immense privilege of starting all over at 0!
I'm sure you're gonna have a lot of fun for the next 100 hours.
Don't thank us player."

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Only solutions is full wipe with DACS compo for people who have payed (full wipe - meaning everything but BPs)  No way you can keep the game as it is, I havent played properly in 6 months but have more stuff than a new player could get in two years in the current climate.

That said, I will still be light years ahead on most 2 weeks in, my opening strategy from beta launch is pretty much unaffected. evil laugh

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There a quite a few of us that have said from the beginning that a wipe of the game prior to release (or earlier), would be needed to set things up for all players. Happened in ED and worked fine.

But a wipe is not going to save DU, just in my opinion. The game is broken, lets be honest.

 

It will release in some state, not sure which state that will be, but much lower in scale than the original idea. It will run for a while until players dry up, possibly quite quickly.

Then they will announce that the game can no longer be supported through lack of players and turn it all off.

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22 hours ago, Creator said:

How about this... NQ will do whatever they want that suits their own interest regardless of the well being of the players. You can bet money on that.

Given NQ's financial position and the active player count right now, well over a year after they claimed there would be no more wipes, if NQ is doing what suits their interests then they are very bad at that!

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7 hours ago, Knight-Sevy said:

If you want a wipe you must also request a talent reset.

 

I may have expressed myself badly. But resetting to 0 is really NO talent point in your talent tree.

 

Doing a wipe won't do any good without it.
My organization will have from day 1 all the talents of industry. The only need will be to grind ore and sell it massively to the bot in order to buy the schematics and build the factories. I give us a few days / week to find an almost identical production capacity on vital items.

 

Of course from the first day we will have pilots with maximum talents for all our trips.

 

Not to mention that we will have all of our very high level PvP skills available as well.

 

A wipe to give a chance to people who wish to take the belateau along the way is a big joke.

This.  I think most of the people saying 'a wipe is OK if I keep my talent points' are saying it because they know they can get back their position again fairly quickly so long as they keep those.  But isn't the point of a wipe to reset and disrupt things and give the new players the ability to compete with the older ones?  What is the point in doing that if established players can re-establish much more quickly than the new players can?

One way to do it would be to give everyone 0 talent points but let the existing players train at 2x normal speed until they have reached the number of talent points they had pre-wipe.  That way people get to keep their advantage they paid for but they have to stay in game and re-sub for a number of months (anout 9 if you started at the beginning of beta?) before they actually get it all back and there isn't such a disruptive imbalance right at the start.

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6 hours ago, VandelayIndustries said:

 

I get what you are saying, but a wipe with keeping talents and BP is what most people would be ok with.  As they have paid.  Sadly its NQ's fault for backing themselves into this corner, but it seemed they were close to broke thats why they went to beta (alpha) and charged a sub before they should have.  But the reality is, people did gain billions on exploits.  Even if your org can recoup super fast because of your talents and knowledge, it is seen as "legit" by the greater community and NQ.  So people dont have an issue with that.  And even with a full reset of talents, a bigger organized org that has beta and alpha knowledge, plus alts, will get to 90% of where they were anyway in like 3 months.  The way the talent system is most lvl 5 skills only give u taht extra 5 %.  Its not like EvE where u actually need certain lvl 5 ships to even SIT in a ship, let alone all the other skills to fly it properly.  So keeping talent points on a wipe wont be as bad as you say at all imo.

Without full chair boosts, which take well over a month to train, PvP ships will be seriously gimped.  While the groups with existing talent pools will be able to get competitive PvP ships right away.  Similarly with industry someone with all-5 industrial skills can sell at a 30% profit and still be selling at a price which would mean new players are making a loss!  It would completely imbalance the game!

It is true that organised groups will spread out training and get back quicker, but guess what?  New players are just as useful to that effort as older ones.  With a talent wipe smart orgs will want to attract new players and involve them in the skill training effort either to get boosts faster or just to have more options in case people quit.  Without it everyone will want existing players but new players are just a drag on time and resources and will only be useful if they can be convinced to grind and give the proceeds to their org.

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6 minutes ago, Zeddrick said:

Without full chair boosts, which take well over a month to train, PvP ships will be seriously gimped.  While the groups with existing talent pools will be able to get competitive PvP ships right away.  Similarly with industry someone with all-5 industrial skills can sell at a 30% profit and still be selling at a price which would mean new players are making a loss!  It would completely imbalance the game!

It is true that organised groups will spread out training and get back quicker, but guess what?  New players are just as useful to that effort as older ones.  With a talent wipe smart orgs will want to attract new players and involve them in the skill training effort either to get boosts faster or just to have more options in case people quit.  Without it everyone will want existing players but new players are just a drag on time and resources and will only be useful if they can be convinced to grind and give the proceeds to their org.

 

I'm just playing devils advocate on this subject I don't care either way.  But the reality is, some people have been paying sub since day 1, and if u wipe they at least want something and talents would be the easiest for NQ. And NQ is known for always going path of least resistance. 

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1 hour ago, Kobayashi said:

Only solutions is full wipe with DACS compo for people who have payed (full wipe - meaning everything but BPs)  No way you can keep the game as it is, I havent played properly in 6 months but have more stuff than a new player could get in two years in the current climate.

That said, I will still be light years ahead on most 2 weeks in, my opening strategy from beta launch is pretty much unaffected. evil laugh

Actually I would be happy with this too, provided the compensation is 1 for 1 (i.e. 1 DAC for each month each of my characters was training skills).  Unfortunately I'm not sure NQ would because it would mean that we would all be able to play for free for quite a long time.  I think one of the reasons for release is to start getting subscription money from the people who currently have beta accounts.

As with the people who want to keep talents, though, I'd be happy with this because I know I can get back into a good position again fairly quickly if I have enough DACs ...

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2 minutes ago, VandelayIndustries said:

 

I'm just playing devils advocate on this subject I don't care either way.  But the reality is, some people have been paying sub since day 1, and if u wipe they at least want something and talents would be the easiest for NQ. And NQ is known for always going path of least resistance. 

That has a ring of truth to it.

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2 hours ago, Zeddrick said:

Given NQ's financial position and the active player count right now, well over a year after they claimed there would be no more wipes, if NQ is doing what suits their interests then they are very bad at that!


The world is full of people that do things against the best interest of themselves and others for a number of reasons. NQ is made of people, so this should be no surprise, if their skills in business operations are anything like their ability to development a game, then it makes a lot of sense actually.

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I notice that people only talk about subs but I am an alpha backer and while I do not pay subs I did pay the max lump sum when Alpha came out so its not just subs that payed for the service. (Subs are just the trickle right now)

 

Personally I think BP should be kept if they need to be gated for a month (You cannot use them for the first month) for balance then that would be fine with me but I would like to keep my designs. I do not really see BP's as a real asset anyway in terms of advantage since you buy a NQ ship and your away basically. You only need custom ships for convenience I build Hauler ships really and since I do it on my own I am still in construction of my Medium class vessel - hope to finish before release especially if a wipe is going to happen. Anyway my small ship will carry about 1 Kiloton of ore (you can push it a bit beyond that but the transition from space to atmosphere is a bit scary in 1G and I am fairly sure it would not manage to go the other way round. So yea I am really keen to keep my BPs.

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