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Social game or a socialist game?


Eternal
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Amazing how the great troll of the east started this discussion by throwing weird accusations and nonsense into the room (trolling noveans). I thought it would be/should be ignored. Now it seems it started a fight over whether the game is socialistic/communistic or capitalistic.

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40 minutes ago, DrDerp said:

Amazing how the great troll of the east started this discussion by throwing weird accusations and nonsense into the room (trolling noveans). I thought it would be/should be ignored. Now it seems it started a fight over whether the game is socialistic/communistic or capitalistic.

 

 

Unless your org somehow manages to never sell or buy anything outside of the guild ever then we are all capitalist in the end because $ is needed to move anything along in this game.   However in the management of each organization the question is which style are people using.  Democratic, Socialist or full blooded for the people Communism(tm).  Or even independent where guild cohesion breaks down to at best a simple cost reduction for goods and services.

 

Some guilds may start running their operation one way and a patch comes along and makes it impossible to continue that way, forcing them to switch gears entirely.  You could write a novel on the changes that happened with our group on Madis after some madman pushed a factory wrecking patch out.

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11 minutes ago, Atmosph3rik said:

Or am i talking to myself?

Well, its a gray area. 

Those words used have a heavy RL history. 

But at the same time, those words represent valid economical models applicable to DU and its org system. 

 

Even if the op has a wrong understanding of the words or DU, that is no reason for closing a topic. 

 

The reason is RL politics. 

 

But the op did not name RL persons or RL countries or RL effects. 

 

So I would agree with either closing tge topic or not closing the topic. 

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28 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

Well, its a gray area. 

Those words used have a heavy RL history. 

But at the same time, those words represent valid economical models applicable to DU and its org system. 

 

Even if the op has a wrong understanding of the words or DU, that is no reason for closing a topic. 

 

The reason is RL politics. 

 

But the op did not name RL persons or RL countries or RL effects. 

 

So I would agree with either closing tge topic or not closing the topic. 

 

 

In theory it should be possible to have a reasonable discussion about in-game economics and politics, and use words like capitalism and socialism.

 

But this thread is a pretty good example of how that actually goes in practice.

 

It's pretty clear just by the title that this thread was intended to go off the rails.  Even if the mods wanted to give it a chance, by the time i reported it, it was already a mess.  Some words just have too much baggage attached to them.

 

There are plenty of other places we can discuss stuff like this too, without it reflecting badly on NQ and the community.

 

If i found my way on to these forums today for the first time and saw this thread, my only thought would be that the company isn't maintaining the forums anymore.

 

Whether that's the case, or there is actually a mod reading this and thinking, "this is fine" i have no idea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Revelcro said:

Unless your org somehow manages to never sell or buy anything outside of the guild ever then we are all capitalist in the end because $ is needed to move anything along in this game.

 

There is an old joke that whenever two or more socialists meet, you get capitalism.

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Why is the game exactly like Eve Online? I will tell you:
 

When you are doing activities, there is an end goal why you are doing it. In other MMOs, it is to min/max, grow your assets, and continue to compete for social status, improve it, and maintain it, until you run out of content and things to do and new content and event comes in. They play the game for themselves within a massive multiplayer online game because it is player-centric. Your reason for playing the game is that! 

 

But in a sandbox that is completely player-driven, with passive skill system, even with PVP, we can observe that most people are playing these games like ants. Everything an ant does is for it's colony. And then you got social hierarchy within that colony such as a queen ant. And then since there is PVP, there are rivalries for power and resources between these colonies.

 

Everything the game has is social status aside from IP development that is mostly based on aesthetics anyway. You cannot climb to the top soloing this game, so you will join a group and play the game as a group. In this group, is the spoil ever divided equitably? No, it is a socialist society like an ant colony, a bee colony, a termite colony, and a wasp colony, with privilege ruling class. Are you saying there are rights within these groups when the ruling class are the ones setting these rights? Rights and privilege are not the same!  My rant here is the lack of equity in this game within these organizations. The game is group-based and everything the game is is group development. This game is about domination of resources, power, and influence and there is no way you can stand up to a large empire. If you cannot beat them, you join them! Nobody is telling you how to play this sandbox game, but efficiency is telling me to play it like this! 

 

And speaking of IP development, why the hell did you make it so hard to build in this game in exchange of the extensiveness? It is too hard to build in this game because of the lack of intuitive tools on an editor that is extensive. And then the scripting as well (which is part of IP development) is also ridiculously hard to understand. The game is not intuitive for IP development which is one of the reason why you play this game. IP development, as I said, is mostly for aesthetic end (I'm a Mechanic, I know what I'm talking about).

 

Eve Online ended up as a socialist game, it's the same thing here. There is no personal equity when socialism reign in this game. You cannot play this game efficiently thinking about your personal equity. In this game, there is too much inequity, it is just too different than the typical MMO that I'm used to which is about equity. If I'm playing the game, I wanna play it for myself, not play it like an ant.

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On 6/29/2021 at 11:36 PM, Eternal said:

I've been thinking hard about this: the typical MMOs that you play is about character development including growing the assets of that character. It's about individual development. Ofcourse you got guilds to affiliate yourself with other people, to leverage your connection with other people, but the game still revolves around character development. This is what I call an equitable game!


When I play games like Eve Online and Dual Universe, it's about empire development. There is no individuality. Everything is about your contribution to the empire. You made the game a socialist game for the sake of making it social! A social game means there is an interactivity between players. It does not mean making the game group-based making it a socialist game.   


Organizations have asset that the members have contributed. An organization does not exists physically. What exists in this material world are the people and the people are individuals. Is there like a legal framework in this game to settle the claims of an individual in an organization? None, it is all player-driven! So what we end up having in this game is the communist socialist structuring of organizations that players contribute to without personal rights to your share in that organization, to your stake in that organization that is never distributed and is reinvested into the equity of that organization, as you have no way to assert them but through player-driven way, in an authoritarian system. 


Legates set rights? Are you serious? If I contribute 2 tons of steel rolled, do I not have the rights to the ownership of those steel? It's called a "share"! And what, it is up to the legate to set these rights? That is why you should f*cking put it on your name! You own it, you should f*cking put it on your name! In that way, you can assert what is yours since we don't have any legal system! 


In this game, we don't have personal property rights under organization which is needed for capitalism to exists. We do if you name it under yourself, but never in an organization. Organizations in this game is dictatorship, communism, and socialism. Why, you ask? Where is the personal rights? You expect me to wait for it from the top? What is he, a god? 


This game is about worshiping dictators, it's never about equity for people who are playing this game in a group, and believe me, this game forces you to play this game in a group! no equity, no capitalism! What do you call it? Answer it for yourself!

 

YUP! as others have mentioned, you seriously need to educate yourself on what socialism is. LOL. Had a good laugh at this post though. 

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On 6/30/2021 at 10:41 PM, joaocordeiro said:

You guys don't get it...
For ppl like the OP, the word socialism is not what a definition says.
It is an insult. It is 100% synonymous of the enemy, of hell, of everything that ppl should not be.

A certain group of countries created this hate against this word to justify wars and commercial deals.
Now that the Cold War is over, a certain group of political activists use that word to fulfill their agenda.

Their agenda is simple, it is to discriminate everything associated with the word. To make any idea related to the word "undebatable" because it is evil. And everyone that does not agree that the word is evil is also evil.
In summary, the end of constructive debate...

 

 

But back to this topic.

The op lives in this environment where "socialism" is evil.

And tried to associate some DU mechanic with "evil" to make it "undebatable"

I don't believe the OP knows what "socialism" is in any definition, and I don't think the OP actually thinks his complaint is about socialism.

 

He just used the word to have an "impact" tittle and some "support" from similar players.

Let's just forget about the millions killed through forcing socialism to work on a larger community scale like an entire country. Mao and Stalin definitely didn't kill millions of their own people doing this. Nothing to see here. Also, socialism is just a stepping stone to communism, since they're basically the same but one has more steps.

 

That aside, it's pretty clearly a capitalist economy. You could join a socialist organisation if you want, since that kind of economic model works pretty well on a small scale.

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49 minutes ago, Xuhybrid said:

Also, socialism is just a stepping stone to communism, since they're basically the same but one has more steps.

 

 

That was the problem in the socialist countries. In none of them was communism ever actually achieved. Because they abused socialism and turned it into totalitarianism.

 

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1 hour ago, sHuRuLuNi said:

 

That was the problem in the socialist countries. In none of them was communism ever actually achieved. Because they abused socialism and turned it into totalitarianism.

 

Communism has never been achieved on that scale because it doesn't work. It's a nice idea to make all people equal. The problem is that they don't want to be equal. That does not fit the human behaviour. Our natural social structure is a hirearchy with an alpha on the top. That is hard-wired in our brains and very hard to overcome - especially in large organisations (in real life or in game) which needs to be hierarchic in order to be effective.

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17 minutes ago, Maxim Kammerer said:

Our natural social structure is a hirearchy with an alpha on the top. That is hard-wired in our brains and very hard to overcome - especially in large organisations (in real life or in game) which needs to be hierarchic in order to be effective.

 

I know ... I lived through it all ...

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Have you played Rust? That thing is a survival player-driven PVP multiplayer. On that experiment, it is clear that games like that is the same as Eve and this game. You won't play the game for your equity. You won't join a group and play it for your equity. I've never heard or seen from the history of player-driven sandbox online game of anyone who managed to create, structure, and maintain an equitable organization for individual stakeholders. Games like that is about dominating the world and you will never dominate the world by yourself. Instead, you will join a group, fight for that group, and forget about your individuality and your equity. It's about being a part of the dominant group, and to some, their political power in that group. There is no individuality in this kind of games! It never happened yet! 

 

And do you know how hard it is to structure and manage an equitable org? It is hard in real-life and taking that concept to a game is also hard. That's why nobody have managed to do it yet! If nobody can do it and you are forced to be in a group, this is the gameplay that you will get -- it is group-based! 

 

How do you fix this problem? Add character development so they will play the game like Runescape.

One of my proposal is an active skill system: 

 

You know, to have a city, you don't need an org as that city. All you need is to claim a tile near or beside someone else's tile, and if that neighborhood grows large enough, you got a community, which is the city! You don't need an org and you can have a tile under your name in that city that is free for you to develop. Because everyone lives close together, the logistics is efficient and convenient and the cost is lower, which is the point of a city. That is all that needs to happen! Stop complicating things that is not at all complicated! What are you gonna propose? Somebody become a Mayor? Mayor for what? Stop creating positions that have no demand at all! 

 

This game is completely player-driven, and guess what? We don't even know how to do it! We don't know how to build a civilization! There has to be some level of player-driven and some level of in-game structure laid for us because we don't know how to structure! A completely player-driven game is very f*cking hard to work, it's illusive! I have the same dream in my mind, I don't think it is viable because we are not capable of that!

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On 7/1/2021 at 6:45 PM, Eternal said:

When you are doing activities, there is an end goal why you are doing it. In other MMOs, it is to min/max, grow your assets, and continue to compete for social status, improve it, and maintain it, until you run out of content and things to do and new content and event comes in.

This is the typical MMO and this is what it has always been. This is the recipe for success! 

 

And then you got an MMO currently under development such as Palia that is aspiring to become the first "community simulation MMO". Unlike a typical MMO, they want their game to be a utopia, far from the realm of competition, when a "game" is defined as a "competitive social activity" in the first place! It doesn't work! What the f*ck is the point? What is the point of the game? To relax in a simulation? 

 

 

https://venturebeat.com/2021/07/01/singularity-6-raises-30m-as-it-readies-launch-of-its-peaceful-mmo-palia/

 

They have raised $30M of capital from investors for the development of the game and this game is very similar to games like Dual Universe. To be honest, Dual Universe is more of a simulation than a game! It is a player-driven utopia of a safezone with nothing to strive for because there is no in-game progression and the PVP sucks. The game has no point but for people to define that point. It is completely player-driven! It doesn't work! We've tried it, it doesn't work!

 

I was hoping for Palia to be more like Runescape then maybe it has the chance of succeeding because that is the f*cking recipe for success! If you are gonna reinvent the wheel, then this is one of the example that it doesn't work!

 

If this is the game, then you might as well play it for group development because there is nothing to compete for and there is no in-game progression to get players engaged in improving their character! This is the reason people are playing this as group-based! They were never engaged to improve their character as this game is completely player-driven. This is the problem! You might as well play it for the group! What is the point of the game?

 

You know, we think about ourselves because we have to fend for ourselves. In a game where there is actually progression, you have to progress, and if you don't, you get left behind. That is what we feel when we play these games. We have this drive to compete! It is a game after all! But in a game that is a utopia, with no progression, with no necessities, you already transcended what it means to be mortal! There is nothing to do but for you to figure out what to do, only for you to figure out that there is nothing to do because this game has no content and is completely player-driven. Tell me what is there to do when you are no longer mortal? This is why there is no concept of self anymore! You have become one with everybody, and I don't care, because I don't need to worry about anything as I am invincible. You know, the more needy a person, the more selfish they are. When you have no needs, you have no self. And this is where we all become a socialist. "What is mine is mine, what is yours is also mine", and it doesn't matter because I don't need them, in a game where I don't need them!

 

Have anybody seen the movie "Ghost in the Shell" where a human's consciousness merge with another consciousness in a vessel. My god, if you are gonna design a social game, make it social! Don't make it a social simulation, make it a social game! A social simulation is a socialist simulation because it takes individuals to socialize. When they merge into a vessel, you can no longer call it social. It is impossible when there is no longer self! It's a selfless simulator! This is what this is! You are simulating immortality! It's not gonna turn out well! We are humans! We cannot comprehend these things! The only thing we can comprehend is our mortality, our equity, our individuality! My god, why does a f*cking game feel like "Ghost in the Shell"?  

 

Make this a mortal game--and make it a mortally playable game--for us mortals to play! The first immortal simulator? When you are no longer mortal, you no longer care about anything else! You might as well no longer care about logging in and playing the game, which you will do in an immortal simulator! How the f*ck did they managed to raise $30M on a game that is designed for you to no longer care about playing it? Lol! How does this guarantee someone's investment? Lol! 

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29 minutes ago, FrigoPorco said:

someone's gettin all EMOTIONAL and triggered over some 'political' stuff....so JUST CALM DOWN.....you ARE, overreacting....and just need to calm down! ? know your place!  


I thought you were still frozen- should check your ore on Alioth! The communist party of madis has secured most of what is left and is in the process of ferrying your ore to Madis where it will be used in our 20% less torture factories  that make the peoples ships, weapons', and red and yellow bases. 

We also stole your land mr capitalist swine- 150 tiles of it for further retaliation for the disease your people unleased upon the sovereign planet of Madis. All hail the free communistic pseudo capitalist people of madis! ALL HAIL MTI!

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43 minutes ago, BlindingBright said:


I thought you were still frozen- should check your ore on Alioth! The communist party of madis has secured most of what is left and is in the process of ferrying your ore to Madis where it will be used in our 20% less torture factories  that make the peoples ships, weapons', and red and yellow bases. 

We also stole your land mr capitalist swine- 150 tiles of it for further retaliation for the disease your people unleased upon the sovereign planet of Madis. All hail the free communistic pseudo capitalist people of madis! ALL HAIL MTI!

 

 

It was a trick...I'm actually a full blooded socialist! WE'RE BROTHERS!!! (wait, that sounds wrong)

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On 6/30/2021 at 7:56 AM, Cheith said:

Damn that's funny. I always thought the Canadians were a little better educated on social systems than the Americans but apparently not.

Please educate us then commie.

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7 minutes ago, Boaz77 said:

But the original post is acceptable.  Got it.

Yes, because he stated and supported with his reasoning an opinion, albeit one that many here -including myself- vehemently disagree with, whereas you just flat out insulted someone.

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3 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

Yes, because he stated and supported with his reasoning an opinion, albeit one that many here -including myself- vehemently disagree with, whereas you just flat out insulted someone.
I hate censorship as a rule, and am able to tolerate comments from people I don't agree with.

He said:

"Damn that's funny. I always thought the Canadians were a little better educated on social systems than the Americans but apparently not."

 

Lots of reasoning there.  Maybe argue about socialism instead of blanket attacking North America.  Oh and Happy Birthday America BTW.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Boaz77 said:

He said:

"Damn that's funny. I always thought the Canadians were a little better educated on social systems than the Americans but apparently not."

 

Lots of reasoning there.  Maybe argue about socialism instead of blanket attacking North America.  Oh and Happy Birthday America BTW.

 

 

Living in the US I can tell you the level of ignorance on social systems is quite impressive. The very fact that Bernie Sanders gets away with calling himself a Socialist is in itself proof that there is widespread ignorance on what Socialism is. The fact that you equate Communism with Socialism is more along the same line.

 

As the original post stated a location in Canada I (maybe mistakenly) assumed the poster was Canadian and maybe better educated on these things as Canadian politics are not just center right, right and extremely right which is the case in the US at present. In terms of overall political standings the Democrats for the most part barely register as a centrist party in most of what they do - center right if I am kind.

 

The US has many good things about it but still has a huge McCarthy chip on its shoulder when it comes to anything that would be considered even centrist anywhere else - still looking for commies under the bed. Still we are now talking about things like a livable wage instead of everything being business centric so maybe there is some hope on the horizon with respect to some sanity and moderation.

 

 

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