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THE FUTURE OF DU COMMUNITY FEEDBACK Q&A - Discussion Thread


NQ-Naerais
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I would like to specifically address the issue of a wipe.

It will have positive and negative effects, I'm sure, but if we want to be fair, a general wipe would be good for the game at the start, because all players can start with the same conditions and nobody has an advantage. I myself have built hundreds of constructs, earned millions of quanta and extracted even more ores from the ground and still think a fair start to the game includes a wipe. I have used my time so far to report many bugs in the game to get the game in a better state, you can assume that I have invested a daily time of more than just a full time job. Would I miss my achievements? Of course! But it's a beta and the game and a fair system come before individual enrichment. Means a complete reset of captured areas, available ores, reset of all Quanta, the skill tree - in short: everything.
What I could imagine as "compensation" would be a "special" colouring of the avatar, so that one is recognised as an alpha beta tester. Possibly there could also be "magic blueprints" that get great constructs in the game - BUT these are granted without the voxels or elements contained in them. Meaning, the players can only place these constructions once they have collected the material for them again. Remember - it's to stay fair for our gaming community, any voxel or advanced engine would be a huge advantage and only gives opportunities to cheat on top of that.

Why the reset at all? Because new players can't even manage to catch up in the current game and its progress. they would simply skip many Tier-levels and destroy the value of them. Likewise, there is currently a huge quanta glut due to testing out the missions, which have simply created a huge imbalance in the economic system. New players couldn't compete with this, couldn't even come close to surviving, because players already have billions in reserves to influence and control the market.
So if you really want a fair game, you should support a wipe. But those who are only interested in maintaining their own power will certainly decide against it. No matter what you decide, it is and remains a beta and the goal should be to find bugs and make improvements to bring the game into a great future. The alpha/beta should not be used to enrich oneself by exploiting bugs.

 

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I don't care if there is a talent wipe as long as I keep the points, since I and other players have payed real money for them via subscription or backing.

Same for constructs. People have payed money to build in a 'permanent coherent MMO universe'. So as long as NQ is selling subscriptions they can't just wipe.

 

That leaves magic blueprints. But I don't see how a magic blueprint is supposed to compensate for a wipe.

At least for me, my static base constructs are as much careful and time consuming terraforming as they are just placing down some voxels on a tile.

 

And finally. What exactly is a wipe supposed to fix? The problem with markets etc. are caused by badly designed game mechanics and economic tools. And a wipe won't fix that.

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52 minutes ago, Zarcata said:

So if you really want a fair game, you should support a wipe. 

 

NQ put themeselves in deep trap, "promising" no wipe so early in so troubled and delayed development.

 

It is obvious, that for viable re-launch, game needs full unconditional wipe. Potential new players will be absolutly not impressed to go for "official launch" of new MMO only to learn they 3 years behind in skills and, most importantly, exploit-ridden economy with trilionnaires. It makes no sense.

 

Yet, even more obvious, that most of veterans who still here ABSOLUTLY NOT WANT fair game.

 

They will go rabid to protect their advantage, so even if NQ have any shy dream to actualy do full wipe, they will need to go over bodies convulsing in tantrums. And vets have their point too (with money/time/things).

 

Its hard situation. NQs fault.

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15 minutes ago, le_souriceau said:

It is obvious, that for viable re-launch, game needs full unconditional wipe. Potential new players will be absolutly not impressed to go for "official launch" of new MMO only to learn they 3 years behind in skills and, most importantly, exploit-ridden economy with trilionnaires. It makes no sense.

Why does this matter? New players will always start from scratch and be 'behind' veteran players. And there will always be players/orgs with more resouces then you have. But so what? How does this ruin the game for you?

 

And NQ did actually cap the quanta for players with fantastical amounts of money gained from 'exploits' (aka bad design from NQ) . But again, even if they still had the quanta. Unless they purposely used them to try and ruin the market for everybody, why would you care that some other players have more money?

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11 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

Why does this matter? New players will always start from scratch and be 'behind' veteran players. And there will always be players/orgs with more resouces then you have. But so what? How does this ruin the game for you?

 

Critical thing here -- RE-LAUNCH. Because DU life/death level need to have it strongest way possible, considering population issues. It means placating newcomers (this ideally large, "last hope" wave) to fullest. Even by sacrificing small number of vets (sound cynical, yes). Re-launching with 3 years baggage its serious weakening of game attractivity, because, by my experience, people in such games both like to start fresh and hate to start behind (and no wiping means they will start deep in ass behind).

 

I had this argument 1000 times here, when people "but in MMOs you new players always behind vets, and what..." 

 

Difference here lies in situation when DU criticly dependant on this re-launching crowd. Ones who slowly come later, sure, who cares, its another matter.

 

I honestly loosing any hope someone understands me on this, beyond their agression about loosing their stuff.

 

 

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Just now, CptLoRes said:

I would support a wipe if I thought that would in any way fix the game. But it won't. The problems with DU are MUCH, MUCH more fundamental then a wipe.

 

On this I can totaly agree.

 

Wipe or not wipe question by itself irrelevant before some fundamental changes in NQ mode of operations and, consequently, game. I'm speaking about kinda "ideal" situation where NQ magicly figured it all out to level when game is competitive on market ---- and can be again rolled with more or less meaningfull advert $$$ to official launch.

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There are areas levels of wipe. 

 

1 - Terrain+ore

2 - Constructs+container contents+territories

3 - Quanta+Orgs+missions

4 - Talents

 

In my opinion the current ore model is unsustainable. We cant expect ppl to spawn on planets full of holes and have a good game experience. 

So i would say that wipe 1 (terrain and ore) is 100% garantied. 

 

With so many bugs and exploits, it would be fair to do a full quanta and construct wipe to make every one star from zero. Not even leaving "magic" blueprints. 

 

But i would also agree with a full wipe at release date ( drop database level) 

With everything you wiped, (including talent points) 

 

 

 

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@NQ  At some point you will have to decide what kind of game you are making.  Are you making a creative mode game for people to build their sand castles?  If so, wipe nothing and you're pretty much done.

 

If you are still intent on making the game you advertised where the game is driven by large scale player interaction then you will have to wipe everything completely and you are going to have to make serious changes in the game.  Safe zones completely fly in the face of such a game.  Resources and territory ownership are things that should have to be defended.  The idea that major resources (mega-nodes for example) or prime real estate can be defended by a mere TU negates the need to form an org for defense or the need for orgs to interact through conflict or treaty to divide those resources.

 

If you want piracy then pirates need more tools to give options beyond the complete destruction of their targets.  This would make haulers more open to piracy if encounters didn't always lead to a total loss.  Piracy also needs to carry some in game consequences.  Without safe zones, the price of piracy is living on the run or forming large pirate alliances.  Now you can pillage a hauler and then camp safely in your base within the safe zone.  Also, elements should be not be repairable.  The idea that a small pirate ship can pirate a meganode worth of ore by simply field repairing a totally destroyed hauler is nonsense.  If a pirate org wants such a heist they need to decide either to attack as a group and bring their own hauler or only disable the target hauler and take it over.  At a certain point, total destruction should mean a total loss of the ship and cargo (this isn't possible in the current game).  

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1.If you want to 'reboot' DU a full wipe only retaining skill point is required at some point.

2.T1 ores should be the only ones necessary for construction materials outside of ship components period. Add more industry layers of refinement if you like for the 'pretty materials' rather then use high tier ores to make a good looking wall. Auto mining should bring in enough materials on your sanctuary tile to build things with. 

3.T1 ore should be the ONLY ore found in any 'safe space'. Reboot with NO bots buying anything period. The idea is T1 ore needs to be next to worthless so people can build basic ships/structures cheaply making it more affordable to venture out of safe space.

4.Money should enter via missions(non game asset affecting) and welfare only, and exit via taxes.

5.Industry needs a 'running' cost of materials like fuel of some sort (generators using ore to make energy would make the most sense). Industry machinery should have some decay mechanic as well. Done right you could remove schematics entirely.

6.Make Alioth and it's moons and some space around it for a respawning asteroid belt the only 'safe zone'. 

7.Remove 'marketplaces'. Replace with system for orgs to setup searchable markets on their territory. Natural trade hubs would develop on their own.

8.Territory ownership outside of sanctuary tile should be org only. Players should only be able to be part of 1 org. Each org should only be able to have one market place on a planet regardless of tiles owned. Orgs should have a rather steep upkeep cost and tiles should have a steep tax to maintain them. This would help to counter alt stacking.

9.Cores should have an upkeep cost. Fail to pay the tax after some point and time the core is removed. Price would be based on core size. This would be a money sink and way to remove items from the game not being used by active players. Would also keep core spam down and help overall game performance.

10. I could go on , but at this point it's a complete rework of the game and not going to happen.

 

Whats the point:

 

I have not logged into play DU for more then a few minutes at a time in months. I was big into industry and our org was very active and we had many great times together. The critical problem and why no one bothers to play anymore in our org is the same core problem DU has always had... there is no point. We made bases , a small city even. The amount of mining needed was insane. I can see where they are trying to go but I can't fathom how they would fix the core problem and not do a total wipe of the game.

 

Making cities , ships etc is all well and good, but that only keeps people interested in doing the 'work' for so long, because at the end of the day who cares if you have a super cool city? Once you have made some ships you almost never risk losing them. Your structures will never be at risk. Your claims will never be at risk. There is no achievement to be had outside of some personal goals of making something you deem 'cool' and perhaps having some other people agree when your done.

 

You cannot reconcile the creatives with the combat players in gameplay and never will. I know how many hours and people it took to even make our small city, and the thought of doing that only to have it destroyed by someone/s who are bored and want to shoot things makes me cringe at the thought. Yet, without the risk, why bother to work to make the city in the first place? There is no survival aspect of the game.

 

There is no 'point' to building outposts on other planets outside your own convivence. Yes auto mining and territory warfare 'might' fix this, but I cannot envision that game world being anything but minimalist constructs recognizing any effort in establishing a base is likely to be destroyed at some point. So outside some form of 'safe space / planets' , most planets would just be a collection of minimal mining bases and whatever defensive constructs are deemed worth it. 

 

The basic formula of how much effort goes into making anything in this game vs the risk of losing it is just unlikely to be overcome with they way DU is laid out. Segregation of PvP risk will forever confine the vast majority of game play to 'safe zones' which will again suffer from the problem of 'why bother' after some time. 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Xennial said:

1.If you want to 'reboot' DU a full wipe only retaining skill point is required at some point.

2.T1 ores should be the only ones necessary for construction materials outside of ship components period. Add more industry layers of refinement if you like for the 'pretty materials' rather then use high tier ores to make a good looking wall. Auto mining should bring in enough materials on your sanctuary tile to build things with. 

3.T1 ore should be the ONLY ore found in any 'safe space'. Reboot with NO bots buying anything period. The idea is T1 ore needs to be next to worthless so people can build basic ships/structures cheaply making it more affordable to venture out of safe space.

4.Money should enter via missions(non game asset affecting) and welfare only, and exit via taxes.

5.Industry needs a 'running' cost of materials like fuel of some sort (generators using ore to make energy would make the most sense). Industry machinery should have some decay mechanic as well. Done right you could remove schematics entirely.

6.Make Alioth and it's moons and some space around it for a respawning asteroid belt the only 'safe zone'. 

7.Remove 'marketplaces'. Replace with system for orgs to setup searchable markets on their territory. Natural trade hubs would develop on their own.

8.Territory ownership outside of sanctuary tile should be org only. Players should only be able to be part of 1 org. Each org should only be able to have one market place on a planet regardless of tiles owned. Orgs should have a rather steep upkeep cost and tiles should have a steep tax to maintain them. This would help to counter alt stacking.

9.Cores should have an upkeep cost. Fail to pay the tax after some point and time the core is removed. Price would be based on core size. This would be a money sink and way to remove items from the game not being used by active players. Would also keep core spam down and help overall game performance.

10. I could go on , but at this point it's a complete rework of the game and not going to happen.

 

Whats the point:

 

I have not logged into play DU for more then a few minutes at a time in months. I was big into industry and our org was very active and we had many great times together. The critical problem and why no one bothers to play anymore in our org is the same core problem DU has always had... there is no point. We made bases , a small city even. The amount of mining needed was insane. I can see where they are trying to go but I can't fathom how they would fix the core problem and not do a total wipe of the game.

 

Making cities , ships etc is all well and good, but that only keeps people interested in doing the 'work' for so long, because at the end of the day who cares if you have a super cool city? Once you have made some ships you almost never risk losing them. Your structures will never be at risk. Your claims will never be at risk. There is no achievement to be had outside of some personal goals of making something you deem 'cool' and perhaps having some other people agree when your done.

 

You cannot reconcile the creatives with the combat players in gameplay and never will. I know how many hours and people it took to even make our small city, and the thought of doing that only to have it destroyed by someone/s who are bored and want to shoot things makes me cringe at the thought. Yet, without the risk, why bother to work to make the city in the first place? There is no survival aspect of the game.

 

There is no 'point' to building outposts on other planets outside your own convivence. Yes auto mining and territory warfare 'might' fix this, but I cannot envision that game world being anything but minimalist constructs recognizing any effort in establishing a base is likely to be destroyed at some point. So outside some form of 'safe space / planets' , most planets would just be a collection of minimal mining bases and whatever defensive constructs are deemed worth it. 

 

The basic formula of how much effort goes into making anything in this game vs the risk of losing it is just unlikely to be overcome with they way DU is laid out. Segregation of PvP risk will forever confine the vast majority of game play to 'safe zones' which will again suffer from the problem of 'why bother' after some time. 

 

 

One way to counter that might be to make it less grindy. If ppl don't have to fear to lose the work of weeks in an instant. They would be less risk averse. So less grind for resource gathering and more active gameplay. As you said limit the destruction, make robbery possible but limit destruction. But I guess DU, even if they decide that would be a way is years from that. I guess ppl also dislike the idea of a wipe that much, because gameplay is very slow. On the other hand I still don't get the idea of being a king in a possibly dying game rather than trying to restart and keep/bring the game to life. To the point that ppl state not playing anymore, yet insist on their property. Yeah but with DU/NQ and the community expectations is the topic and issue. Also like you indicate there seems to be quite the opposites/extremists in the game. Each want their game/gamestyle (to the max). There seems to be to little middle ground/compromise to make a working game out of the parts at hand.

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how much new player do you expect on launch ?

I'm expecting a plus of 20%-40%. The majority is or was already here in DU.

 

A full wipe will simply cost all time anyone ever invested into the game.

 

While I think there has to be a catalysator for new players giving them a huge benefit and a good motivating start, the old players should not pay for this with a wipe.

 

With a wipe you have a good number of players starting through, but piss off a huge number of vets who already invested time&dough  (remember not anyone has the same amount of one or another).

 

A wipe will lead to a grounding, I have no doubt about it !

 

But I think there can be nice workarounds helping new players to establish and find the fun we all had once in time when we started. 

 

It needs serious brainstorming how to solve this.

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Any updates on how Auto Mining will work? Cant find any info. I am so curious how NQ will do it. The Best Option would be to lock the player on tile/machine in order for auto mining to work and from time to time to click Auto Mine cycles start/stop, etc.

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