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Instant warp with 100% safety is bad for DU


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4 hours ago, Gottchar said:

I really wouldnt mind trying slowboating and building a ship for it first and all. The main reason I think people like to warp instead of slowboating is not necessarily just pvp, it is also the fact that slowboating means doing nothing at all for 5 hours, except for watching netflix until you are there while checking if you are being attacked.

 

As much as I would love people to shoot stuff, so other people buy new stuff from me, as long as slowboating means hours of nothing, I understand people rather avoiding it.

 

When I see:

 

Hours of doing nothing and chance of being shot at VS cost of warp cells

 

the bad thing on the left there isnt "chance of being shot at", it is the part where you do nothing at all for multiple hours.

I agree having to fly for five hours also sucks.  One interesting thing would be to have different levels of warp. At max warp it instant but at half warp maybe it takes 30 minutes and slowest warp it takes an hour. Of course warp cell cost would adjust accordingly. My main point is thete had to be some gray zone between instant 100% safe warp and showboating for 5 hours and being vulnerable to pvp.

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From what I can see in the current state of the game Warp's current functionality is clogging up the entire game. Here are my thoughts:   The element degradation feature was added to the gam

Remove the ability to warp to planets moons.  Only Warp beacons.  Make Space stations have some protection so you dont lose them while sleeping.  Then, you can watch people have wars over them, becaus

Main issue here is population effect.   0.23 (beyond good/bad ecomonical side long run -- another topic) devastated already humble game population by alienating huge chunk of solo/small grou

37 minutes ago, DecoyGoatBomb said:

I agree having to fly for five hours also sucks.  One interesting thing would be to have different levels of warp. At max warp it instant but at half warp maybe it takes 30 minutes and slowest warp it takes an hour. Of course warp cell cost would adjust accordingly. My main point is thete had to be some gray zone between instant 100% safe warp and showboating for 5 hours and being vulnerable to pvp.

I think they just over did it with the distance and travel time to planets. Maybe 1 or 2 max planets should of been 2.5 hours, and all other planets in a mix of 30min to 1.5 hours.  

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6 hours ago, Kruzer said:

Warp right now is perfectly balanced. The cost of warp cells to haul cargo is significant.

 

I could not disagree more here. Warp is severely unbalanced and warp cells are way too cheap, especially in requirements to make them. Currently is is very viable quickly to just throw together your own warp cell facility to cook your own as it's easy, cheap and has a very fast ROI.

 

Warp needs to get gated and the efficient use of warp needs to be  a long train.

Warp beacons need to come down in both production cost and material requirements to allow gating warping to planets behind a very long train/specilization

 

Talent tree:

 

Propulsion efficiency (x2 multiplier for training time)

1 Fuel use and max thrust +10%,unlocks atmo engines XS and S

2 Fuel use and max thrust +10%

3 Fuel use and max thrust +10%, unlocks atmo engines M and L

4 Fuel use and max thrust +10%, unlocks space engine XS and S as well as Atmospheric Propulsion specialization (+5% thrust per level)

5 Fuel use and max thrust +10%, unlocks future atmo XL

 

Space propulsion efficiency (x3 multiplier for training time)

1 Fuel use and max thrust +5%

2 Fuel use and max thrust +5%, unlocks space engines M and L

3 Fuel use and max thrust +5%

4 Fuel use and max thrust +5%, unlocks space engine XL as well as Space Propulsion Specialization (+5% thrust per level)

5 Fuel use and max thrust +5%, unlocks Warp Drives (can lock beacons only)

 

Warp Drive efficiency (x4 multiplier for training time)

1 Reduce cell requirement for range -10%

2 Reduce cell requirement for range -10%

3 Reduce cell requirement for range -10%

4 Reduce cell requirement for range -10%, unlock Warp Drive Solution Specialization (-5% time to warp spool up per level)

5 Reduce cell requirement for range -10%, unlocks ability to lock  planets for warp destination

 

 

This would make Warp a goal for a character to achieve and give the character purpose in the scope of being a pilot/hauler. It sets up roles and careers.

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14 hours ago, JohnnyTazer said:

Remove the ability to warp to planets moons.  Only Warp beacons.  Make Space stations have some protection so you dont lose them while sleeping.  Then, you can watch people have wars over them, because they are now valuable.  Finish RDMS so the Duties are involved, so people who deploy Warp beacons can charge Quanta per use.  BAM now all the sudden you have dynamic interactions, and orgs will rise and fall, and war over the ability to control warping to planets (can always do slow boating, smuggle style han solo).  This would add so much to the game.  Civilizations would start to form around planets. 

YESSSS!!!!
Damn... I think this is the BEST solution I've heard so far. Instant fun! Make the players the centre of the game as promised...

And make warp gate activation/destination codes tangible assets in game that have a limited number of uses that orgs can sell to their customers or raiders can steal...

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2 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

I could not disagree more here. Warp is severely unbalanced and warp cells are way too cheap, especially in requirements to make them. Currently is is very viable quickly to just throw together your own warp cell facility to cook your own as it's easy, cheap and has a very fast ROI.

 

Warp needs to get gated and the efficient use of warp needs to be  a long train.

Warp beacons need to come down in both production cost and material requirements to allow gating warping to planets behind a very long train/specilization

 

Talent tree:

 

Propulsion efficiency (x2 multiplier for training time)

 

 

Space propulsion efficiency (x3 multiplier for training time)

 

 

Warp Drive efficiency (x4 multiplier for training time)

 

 

 

This would make Warp a goal for a character to achieve and give the character purpose in the scope of being a pilot/hauler. It sets up roles and careers.

I still think piloting/tech skills should have been tiered. But now im going off topic. Sorry...

T1 Hover tech / Propellers, Ailerons, Wings, Atmo Brakes / Atmo fuel tech

 

T2 Atmo tech / Jet engines, Adjusters

 

T3 Rockets / Rocket Engines, Boosters, Retro Rockets / Rocket fuel tech

 

T4 Space / Vertical Thrusters,  Space Adjusters, Space Brakes / Space fuel tech

 

T5  Gravity / Warp Drives , Anti Grav Drives, Inertial Damping (?) / Gravitic fuel tech

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6 hours ago, DecoyGoatBomb said:

I agree having to fly for five hours also sucks.  One interesting thing would be to have different levels of warp. At max warp it instant but at half warp maybe it takes 30 minutes and slowest warp it takes an hour. Of course warp cell cost would adjust accordingly. My main point is thete had to be some gray zone between instant 100% safe warp and showboating for 5 hours and being vulnerable to pvp.

One of our team members crashed into a base before warp finished between Alioth and Madis.
he continued to warp for another 30 seconds or so but then blew up on exit from warp.


Warping does seem to take place in "real space"  so there is that....

In that case, how about Warp interdictor technology that can sit, powered up in wait along well travelled routes and attempt to catch warping ships in some kind of mini game...
The ships are pulled out of warp by the interdictor and have a cool down time before they can warp again.


Personally, I think Elite Dangerous supercruise is the best implementation of warp so far... it has an excellent interdiction mini game that would lend itself to DU's select target approach.

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for once i have to say that a thread is driving away from real problems, this is a prime example and here is why this thread irritates me:

 

1. warp is fine, is semi balanced, and is a working system as well as an essential one. there is no point to nerfing/buffing the mechanics of warp, period.

 

2. warp cell costs are not in any way unbalanced and also create a nice sink for the economy, besides no one really warps heavy haulers around unless they get caught, which is a reward for being smart about your hauling.

 

3. removing the ability to warp withought a player beacon would kill gameplay for many people, as well as make things unnecessarily difficult.

 

its hypocritical that the community pushes for NQ to reverse the scehmatics, which were not needed at all, and then asking for stuff like this.

let NQ just fix the exploit that is an issue, and let it be, warp is fine and there is no need to create problems that didnt exist.

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here is another thing to consider, when atmo pvp comes, this entire arguement will be invalidated as all of you will be scouring for warp cells to escape pirates.

 

warping is a time trade off not entirely a safety tradeoff

 

think about the future before you contemplate a addition

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51 minutes ago, ELX987 said:

3. removing the ability to warp withought a player beacon would kill gameplay for many people, as well as make things unnecessarily difficult.

 

I'd agree with your post in general but do think that, provided NQ makes beacons more accessible, it is not at all a bad thought to limit warp destinations to beacons, at least as a first/general option.

 

It drives player innovation, may create a network of (public) beacons which servers players of all sorts and styles and as such may well be able to stay alive without much effort or be a good source for conflict/combat (could IMO really be either depending on the situation)

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6 hours ago, ELX987 said:

for once i have to say that a thread is driving away from real problems, this is a prime example and here is why this thread irritates me:

 

1. warp is fine, is semi balanced, and is a working system as well as an essential one. there is no point to nerfing/buffing the mechanics of warp, period.

 

Warp feels like it is in a good place to you because it is easy and overpowered. Just like the schematics nerf felt to industry. It was nessecary but most people hated it because they were used to doing it the easy way. 

6 hours ago, ELX987 said:

2. warp cell costs are not in any way unbalanced and also create a nice sink for the economy, besides no one really warps heavy haulers around unless they get caught, which is a reward for being smart about your hauling.

I have warped heavy loaded ships before because I knew it was 100% sure thing that I would arrive at my distination without ever having the possibility of being shot. Depending on what you are hauling and your margins are it is totally worth warping for hauling. Now I doubt anyone is going to be warping full loads of gold but many other things are viable to warp/haul.

6 hours ago, ELX987 said:

 

3. removing the ability to warp withought a player beacon would kill gameplay for many people, as well as make things unnecessarily difficult.

I agree with the sentiment of wanting player beacons  to be important but just making it where you can only warp to them would break the game as it is currently. There has to be whole new implementation to make that work. 

6 hours ago, ELX987 said:

 

its hypocritical that the community pushes for NQ to reverse the scehmatics, which were not needed at all, and then asking for stuff like this.

let NQ just fix the exploit that is an issue, and let it be, warp is fine and there is no need to create problems that didnt exist.

You assume I think schematics are bad. I love what schematics did for the game. I think the roll out was poor but it was 100% necessary. People who whine about schematics are just sad they can't be a two man org or solo and make everything in the game. It is not because it is bad for the game. It is bad for how they want to play it. This isn't Factorio. And yes, I do think warp is OP as I literally haven't traveled without using it since it was implemented. Instantly getting to a planet with safety 100% guaranteed should not be so cheap and easy that I can do it for every interplanetary trip I make without even thinking twice about the cost. That is broken... convenient but broken. 

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4 hours ago, SneakySnake said:

There is no need to change the warp. NQ just need to remove the safe zones.

100% agree that just removing planet safe zones in PVP areas of space would likely fix most of the problem with warp in its current state. My list of suggestions could be as simple as just implimenting one of them to help the problems I have with warp's current state. 

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6 hours ago, ELX987 said:

here is another thing to consider, when atmo pvp comes, this entire arguement will be invalidated as all of you will be scouring for warp cells to escape pirates.

 

warping is a time trade off not entirely a safety tradeoff

 

think about the future before you contemplate a addition

For sure. Atmo pvp will change everything but that update is ... very far off based on the pace of NQ patches thus far.  My concern is the game is basically at a complete stand still atm. Again, my opinion a big contributor to that is warp nullifying almost all PVP. 

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4 minutes ago, DecoyGoatBomb said:

Warp feels like it is in a good place to you because it is easy and overpowered. Just like the schematics nerf felt to industry. It was nessecary but most people hated it because they were used to doing it the easy way. 

I have warped heavy loaded ships before because I knew it was 100% sure thing that I would arrive at my distination without ever having the possibility of being shot. Depending on what you are hauling and your margins are it is totally worth warping for hauling. Now I doubt anyone is going to be warping full loads of gold but many other things are viable to warp/haul.

I agree with the sentiment of wanting player beacons  to be important but just making it where you can only warp to them would break the game as it is currently. There has to be whole new implementation to make that work. 

You assume I think schematics are bad. I love what schematics did for the game. I think the roll out was poor but it was 100% necessary. People who whine about schematics are just sad they can't be a two man org or solo and make everything in the game. It is not because it is bad for the game. It is bad for how they want to play it. This isn't Factorio. And yes, I do think warp is OP as I literally haven't traveled without using it since it was implemented. Instantly getting to a planet with safety 100% guaranteed should not be so cheap and easy that I can do it for every interplanetary trip I make without even thinking twice about the cost. That is broken... convenient but broken. 

warp is only easy and overpowered for you because you are rich, many players haven't found a mega node yet, either that or cant pass 5m in quanta withought serious time developing skills playing the game. warp cells are 8k a piece at the moment, an avg warp shuttle takes 2-4 warp cells to go from alioth to thades or madis. but start adding weight and it gets more expensive as you go, and based on my statement before most players cant sum up money to even consider getting a warp shuttle that costs 3-6m because it isnt worth their time.

 

warp is, again, not the issue, the problem is we need a system to take the shit out of warp forcefully, AKA interdiction...

once interdiction and atmo pvp are out this topic will become valid should a real issue arise, but at this point this problem doesnt exist 

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Main issue here is population effect.

 

0.23 (beyond good/bad ecomonical side long run -- another topic) devastated already humble game population by alienating huge chunk of solo/small group/more casual players. Things can be said here like "game not for them", ok, they left, but i'm not seeing millions of "right kind of" players who come to enjoy new economy.

 

Clumsy knocking out of warp safety (without reasonable compesating systems/mechanics) -- just to "feed" impatient PvPers, will end up with similar (or even worse) exodus, something game barely can afford.

 

This said, I agree, that game desperatly needs more meaningful conflict, but preferably must be some sort of relativly "combatant vs combatant objectives" thing.

 

(And don't give me "but they can hire escorts" BS, its not how its working).

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18 hours ago, DecoyGoatBomb said:

One interesting thing would be to have different levels of warp.

So a noob player would have to wait 30m while a pro would do it instantly. 

I got to say, that really resembles reality and it's not unfair at all. (sarcastic) 

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8 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

So a noob player would have to wait 30m while a pro would do it instantly. 

 

Where did anyone say that?

I would consider it perfectly fine if you would have a talent to train which would improve your spool up time by 5 or 10% per level. There could be an engineering talent and a pilot one.

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5 hours ago, DecoyGoatBomb said:

My concern is the game is basically at a complete stand still atm. Again, my opinion a big contributor to that is warp nullifying almost all PVP. 

Everything in the game is unbalanced. 

The game promotes the strong to get stronger and the weak to get weaker. 

 

If pvp is expanded, with the current game balance, the game dies. 

 

If current pvp was any good, ppl would be fighting on the pvp zone all day. 

And they are not. Pirates wait for prey in the border.

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2 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

Everything in the game is unbalanced.

 

Which for the actual state of the game is actually to be expected. It's because NQ misrepresents their game as being "beta" and "fully playable" that these discussions happen.

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2 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

Where did anyone say that?

I would consider it perfectly fine if you would have a talent to train which would improve your spool up time by 5 or 10% per level. There could be an engineering talent and a pilot one.

But why add more barriers for noob players? 

Like if you make this game ultra mega painfull, for new players, who would want to join it? 

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4 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

It's because NQ misrepresents their game as being "beta" and "fully playable" that these discussions happen.

Not only that, but NQ assure us that our current profit, profit gained with a very unbalanced game, will stay with us after release. 

 

But increasing pvp will only make the unbalance deeper. Making the situation on release even more unbalanced and making the exodus of players faster. 

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I believe interdiction is in the works... But a ways down the road.

 

Warp cells are cheap now, but a finite item and eventually they will become expensive and less common.   

 

If they added land warfare or planetary combat we will see a real shift in PVP dynamics.  

 

Slowing down warp isn't going to fix anything.  

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3 hours ago, LouHodo said:

If they added land warfare or planetary combat we will see a real shift in PVP dynamics.  

 

Without AvA combat, "land warfare" will be limping in a serious way and what NQ has so far said about how atmo combat for CvC will work leads me to expect that it will have little or no options for small gang/solo abilities to engage in that at all, it will mostly be medium/large orgs who can get into that. Besides that, it will all be timer driven I am pretty sure, much like citadel warfare in EVE.

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4 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

Without AvA combat, "land warfare" will be limping in a serious way and what NQ has so far said about how atmo combat for CvC will work leads me to expect that it will have little or no options for small gang/solo abilities to engage in that at all, it will mostly be medium/large orgs who can get into that. Besides that, it will all be timer driven I am pretty sure, much like citadel warfare in EVE.

Thing I want to know is how will NQ tie together CVA. You gonna radar lock someone’s avatar and blap them 2 SU away with rails? 😂

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I wish there where warpgates which each connect two far away points in space. so if I wanted to, for example, go from alioth to sicari, I fly to gate A, which is 15 SU away from alioth (in pvp space) and it instantly teleports me to gate B, 30 SU away from sicari (in pvp space). That way people can bypass the insane wait time of slowboating, and pvp people can fight for control of the gates, likely asking for some toll when somebody exits the gate.
 

I may pay "hyper diaper corp" a weekly fee of 2M if they let me use the gates they control, now that pvp org has some steady income and not just some broken elements as loot. 
 

Make sure gates can only be used at slow speeds, or people just zoom in at topspeed with the help of some lua-supported piloting and also no space stations can be build in the direct vicinity, unless they are made attackable.
 

But yes, that way there is an alternative to warping that does not take 5 hours of boredom, while at the same time giving pvp factions something to fight over and make money with. Once that is implemented feel free to increase warp cell usage by factor 10.

And whether or not some pvp faction decides to shoot a new player in a shuttle is obviously up to them, I mean, player driven universe and stuff. Although, they may make some enemies by generally being an ass.

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