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Instant warp with 100% safety is bad for DU


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On 2/27/2021 at 9:52 PM, blazemonger said:

 

Without AvA combat, "land warfare" will be limping in a serious way and what NQ has so far said about how atmo combat for CvC will work leads me to expect that it will have little or no options for small gang/solo abilities to engage in that at all, it will mostly be medium/large orgs who can get into that. Besides that, it will all be timer driven I am pretty sure, much like citadel warfare in EVE.

The idea of AvA is needed but honestly territory capture is just as important.  I would be happy with ground based combat dueling mode.  Were two players can choose to fight each other in atmosphere or on the surface.  

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On 2/25/2021 at 1:09 PM, DecoyGoatBomb said:

This is a good solve too. Not sure about making slowboating the safe method. Not even sure how that would work. 

you guys do know that when warping to a planet outside of safe zone you dont warp into atmo so you can still be shot down by pirates thats exactly what they do. follow warp points and wait for people to exit. what movie or game do you know that allows you to pvp or be shot down while in warp thats one of the points of warp. 

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4 hours ago, Sinfil said:

you guys do know that when warping to a planet outside of safe zone you dont warp into atmo so you can still be shot down by pirates thats exactly what they do. follow warp points and wait for people to exit. what movie or game do you know that allows you to pvp or be shot down while in warp thats one of the points of warp. 

I'm not sure what you mean by the first part. Right now if you warp to any planet you land in the small safe zone area around that planet. Warp is a 100% safe method of travel currently.

 

There are games like Eve that provide methods to pull ships out of warp. To counteract this there are ships available which bypass warp interdiction and a lot of people rely on scouting ahead with a less valuable ship.

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Just now, fiddlybits said:

I'm not sure what you mean by the first part. Right now if you warp to any planet you land in the small safe zone area around that planet. Warp is a 100% safe method of travel currently.

 

There are games like Eve that provide methods to pull ships out of warp. To counteract this there are ships available which bypass warp interdiction and a lot of people rely on scouting ahead with a less valuable ship.

what i ment is that once they drop the planet safe zones then warp wont be the way it is and that they have a process of doing everything

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22 hours ago, Sinfil said:

you guys do know that when warping to a planet outside of safe zone you dont warp into atmo so you can still be shot down by pirates thats exactly what they do. follow warp points and wait for people to exit. what movie or game do you know that allows you to pvp or be shot down while in warp thats one of the points of warp. 

As it currently works you always warp into the planet safezone even to the outerplanets. If the planet safe zone is closer to the planet atmo or non existent it would help solve my problem with the current state of warp. 

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4 hours ago, DecoyGoatBomb said:

If the planet safe zone is closer to the planet atmo or non existent it would help solve my problem with the current state of warp

But having a fixed warp arrival point in the middle of PVP would not solve anyone's problem.

It would just create a very high value point to be captured. And we know what org would camp there every second of the day.

 

How fun would that be?

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8 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

But having a fixed warp arrival point in the middle of PVP would not solve anyone's problem.

It would just create a very high value point to be captured. And we know what org would camp there every second of the day.

 

How fun would that be?

Would be fun because it would actually give reasons for other pvpers to fight for it.  If you thinking BOO would be able to forever hold that you would be wrong.  

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Just now, JohnnyTazer said:

Would be fun because it would actually give reasons for other pvpers to fight for it.  If you thinking BOO would be able to forever hold that you would be wrong.  

Its not only BOO i would be worried about. 

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Just now, Sinfil said:

Its not only BOO i would be worried about. 

Thats a good thing then.  God forbid there be any conflict and excitement in this game.  You know...player driven like a certain someone described what this game would be.

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Just now, JohnnyTazer said:

Thats a good thing then.  God forbid there be any conflict and excitement in this game.  You know...player driven like a certain someone described what this game would be.

its earl start to the game things will pick up later down the road

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Just now, JohnnyTazer said:

What better time to test things early.....ya know.,...when its in BETA.  

they cant just make people do things thats the issue, players running things rely on the players actually doing it them selves 

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9 minutes ago, JohnnyTazer said:

Thats a good thing then.  God forbid there be any conflict and excitement in this game. 

Its all fiction. 

Fair battles come at a big cost. No pirate wants a fair battle. 

They would or already have allied them selfs with all other pirates. 

 

The only ones that woukd actually suffer would be none pirates trying to warp and ending up in the middle of 10 pirate space stations making a sphere around the exit point.

 

All that talk about ppl BOO wanting symmetrical battles is 100% BS. 

Becaue if they wanted they would not have allied themselves with all other pirates. 

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1 minute ago, joaocordeiro said:

Its all fiction. 

Fair battles come at a big cost. No pirate wants a fair battle. 

They would or already have allied them selfs with all other pirates. 

 

The only ones that woukd actually suffer would be none pirates trying to warp and ending up in the middle of 10 pirate space stations making a sphere around the exit point.

 

All that talk about ppl BOO wanting symmetrical battles is 100% BS. 

Becaue if they wanted they would not have allied themselves with all other pirates. 

I didnt say anything about fair battles. I said conflict.   EvE has been going on 20 years now, and the old saying goes "if you find yourself in a fair battle, you fucked up".  Baiting your opponent is part of it. Or controlling certain areas of space for profit.  Then also its on NQ to utilize the vastness of space, and add content and deep range scanners, for small scale skirmishes to happen, and exploration happen, searching for asteroids, anomolies, abandon wrecked ships, etc. 

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Just now, joaocordeiro said:

Then yes. Im against that massacre you want to call "conflict". And yes, God forbit it. 

Its coming at some point.  With territory warfare.  How they gonna stop multiple groups to align, and blast anyone they dont like off a planet?  Only the players themselves can stop it. 

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12 hours ago, joaocordeiro said:

But having a fixed warp arrival point in the middle of PVP would not solve anyone's problem.

I do not agree. If a warp point/station in PVP space is a benefit to several factions and groups it is not unlikely that these factions will combine forces to support and defend such a location. That in turn can create a fairly safe place "in the middle of nowhere" which could then evolve into a commercial or diplomatic hub. And so it actually is quite possible this grows into a place where many "problems" of many different natures are resolved.

 

Would that be guaranteed to happen? No, but unless it's tried and an effort is made to make it happen/work it will not happen at all. And working to make such things happen, IMO, is actually what DU should eventually be about.

 

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34 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

I do not agree. If a warp point/station in PVP space is a benefit to several factions and groups it is not unlikely that these factions will combine forces to support and defend such a location. That in turn can create a fairly safe place "in the middle of nowhere" which could then evolve into a commercial or diplomatic hub. And so it actually is quite possible this grows into a place where many "problems" of many different natures are resolved.

 

Would that be guaranteed to happen? No, but unless it's tried and an effort is made to make it happen/work it will not happen at all. And working to make such things happen, IMO, is actually what DU should eventually be about.

 

+1 Well said Blaze.

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2 hours ago, blazemonger said:

Would that be guaranteed to happen?

Dont take this as a offense but, how naive... 

 

That defence requires a huge amount of resources. Because attackers only need to be online for 30minutes to attack but defenders need to be online 24/7. 

It is very inefficient to mount a permanent defence. 

 

At most, we will see this convoy time window, where a certain org will try to protect the warp exit for a limited ammount of time, to allow their org members to warp safely. 

But this is also inefficient because mining operations will take at least half a day. Players dont have that ammount of time to stay idle looking at the radar. 

 

But worse part is that even if some org mounts a permanent or temporary defense, it will only be for them and their allies. 

For the lone player or the small org this means the end of warp.

 

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19 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

For the lone player or the small org this means the end of warp.

 

That implies that pirates are guarding the warp exits 24/7, while you only need a window of a few minutes to pass. It's basically the same argument you used against the possibility of a safe station :v

 

Also if you're on an hauler you just need to reach atmosphere and you're basically safe as long as PvP meta pushes for space-only ships.

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5 minutes ago, Fra119 said:

That implies that pirates are guarding the warp exits 24/7, while you only need a window of a few minutes to pass. It's basically the same argument you used against the possibility of a safe station :v

You think so? 

How about we think about it properly:

 

To defend it, a org has to mount a defence against the highest number of attackers they can think of. 

This requires a fleet standing idle 24/7

 

To attack a freight ship, any meta xs core can do it. 

So any pirate, even if not affiliated with any pirate org can just scan the zone with the radar, if empty or with friendly forces he can just move there and stay as long as he wants, he can also retreat, with his meta design as quick as he wants. 

He can organize with a org of pirates to have a shift rotation on the warp exit. 

 

The pirate with his meta design take virtual zero risk. 

The defender with their meta design needs to chose between risk and contract breach with freighter. 

Freighter needs to pay a large ammount for a condicional protection. 

 

Lone players and small orgs are 100% screwed in this scenario.

Even large orgs will be at a big disavantage even compared to lone pirates. 

 

Basically this is why territory mechanics need to exist. 

But there are no territories in warp exit space. 

 

For warp exit to be in a pvp zone, warp exit needs to either be random within a very large volume of space (bigger than radar scope). 

Or allow players to define their exit zone while warping. 

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32 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

You think so? 

How about we think about it properly:

 

To defend it, a org has to mount a defence against the highest number of attackers they can think of. 

This requires a fleet standing idle 24/7

 

To attack a freight ship, any meta xs core can do it. 

So any pirate, even if not affiliated with any pirate org can just scan the zone with the radar, if empty or with friendly forces he can just move there and stay as long as he wants, he can also retreat, with his meta design as quick as he wants. 

He can organize with a org of pirates to have a shift rotation on the warp exit. 

 

The pirate with his meta design take virtual zero risk. 

The defender with their meta design needs to chose between risk and contract breach with freighter. 

Freighter needs to pay a large ammount for a condicional protection. 

 

Lone players and small orgs are 100% screwed in this scenario.

Even large orgs will be at a big disavantage even compared to lone pirates. 

 

Basically this is why territory mechanics need to exist. 

But there are no territories in warp exit space. 

 

For warp exit to be in a pvp zone, warp exit needs to either be random within a very large volume of space (bigger than radar scope). 

Or allow players to define their exit zone while warping. 

I don’t think I can agree on any point you just made here.

 

Pirates are always at risk from not just military forces, but other pirates. Hauler gets taken out by an XS fighter? That’s a newbie hauler or one that is beyond unfit for purpose. 

 

space is big, it’s actually fairly hard to find someone outside the pipe without prior tracking through alt or core. I would expect space stations to have some immunity shield just like TW tiles that need to prepped for attack prior to raid making the warp beacon idea a very good one

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On 2/25/2021 at 7:53 PM, DecoyGoatBomb said:

 Warp cells are relatively cheap, warp is instant and guarantees your safe arrival at your destination

 

That is what i thought then i crashed directly into a spacestation who was reached nearly 5 seconds after arriving Alioth ;)

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11 minutes ago, Pseudolukian said:

That is what i thought then i crashed directly into a spacestation who was reached nearly 5 seconds after arriving Alioth ;)

 

Well.. the mistake here was to leave propulsion on while entering warp.. If you cut engines before warp or in warp, you come to a complete stop at the exit point and you can navigate from there.

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