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27 minutes ago, Aviator1280 said:

A test server is needed but no to take bp from there and import in the normal server. That is needed only to learn how to build and what we have to build. The building should be done in the normal server

I asked this because it had been discussed on the stream or in discord channels with JC and some NQ admins about having a place with unlimited modules voxels etc etc a creators mode so to speak where you can create what ever you wanted and test it. with this you could make a BP and be able to have it in the real game so you will have to gather everything needed for the BP 

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Have your devs play the game , from the start with no god mode    They will learn more from that than any hand picked forum

Just forget about ATV. Their influence was clearly bad on this game. Learn about the history of MMOs to avoid repeating the same mistakes other already made in past. And play your own game (

And yet again, NQ has proven they're out of touch with how the players have been playing the game.   Setting up a factory to produce everything one desires is just the first step, for many o

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2 hours ago, Emma Roid said:

The 'fixes' now proposed make matter worse instead of better in my opinion:
 - Setting up a Tier one factory is already possible (I managed), so that did not need fixing: it will only increase oversupply on an already slow-moving market.
 - By removing the breaking of items there will be an even lower turnover on the market. That has been the biggest market problem from the start: if you can endlessly reuse and repair items, only new players occasionally buy something. You need a healthy amount of destruction to get a healthy throughput on the markets. PVP alone will not do that.

Why is the destruction removed again? 0.23 stimulate people to start with smaller ships and more T1 elements, and build up over time from that. So the destruction fits: those ships are not that hard to replace or repair. 
People should not fly large core 20-engine monsters until they know what they are doing.

So for me this change removes the good bits of 0.23, and makes the bad bits of 0.23 worse. I think the result will be even less healthy markets.

Hi,

I completely agree with that.


The prices on the T1 schematics have been fair for most items (probably not for furniture). At least it gives a real challenge and goals, and you can start and progress from scratch and slowly evolve to get bigger and bigger. Making it easier now  would just undermine the 0.23 update very purpose imho.

I produce modestly ship parts and sell them to the market. The item destructions allowed at least a good turn-over and good demand on those ship parts. Removing it (but for PvP) would kill some businesses, and that new born economy.
Beside that, the 24-25 quantas bots buying ore (temporary), just kill the market. Basically it is much more profitable if I would sell my non-refined ore to the bots instead of spending the time and efforts to invest in schematics, industry building and hours manufacturing, or even trading.
I think the more you try to control the player-driver economy, the more you may ruin it.

 

I don't mind adapting to new rules. I appreciate the efforts, the intents NQ's team brings and what they achieved so far. However nothing would revert and heal what the 0.23 patch did, but time. It is better to move on, and to continue on a mostly straight line instead of reverting, and possibly hurting back those who tried to adapt.

Thank you for reading.
Keep on the great work!

 

edit: to be fair, new T1 schematics prices (those from today's patch) look good. It has not been really undercut badly, while the reimbursement seemed to work. Good job!

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20 minutes ago, July01 said:

Hi,

I completely agree with that.


The prices on the T1 schematics have been fair for most items (probably not for furniture). At least it gives a real challenge and goals, and you can start and progress from scratch and slowly evolve to get bigger and bigger. Making it easier now  would just undermine the 0.23 update very purpose imho.

I produce modestly ship parts and sell them to the market. The item destructions allowed at least a good turn-over and good demand on those ship parts. Removing it (but for PvP) would kill some businesses, and that new born economy.
Beside that, the 24-25 quantas bots buying ore (temporary), just kill the market. Basically it is much more profitable if I would sell my non-refined ore to the bots instead of spending the time and efforts to invest in schematics, industry building and hours manufacturing, or even trading.
I think the more you try to control the player-driver economy, the more you may ruin it.

 

I don't mind adapting to new rules. I appreciate the efforts, the intents NQ's team brings and what they achieved so far. However nothing would revert and heal what the 0.23 patch did, but time. It is better to move on, and to continue on a mostly straight line instead of reverting, and possibly hurting back those who tried to adapt.

Thank you for reading.
Keep on the great work!

Industrialists like myself calculate our product prices, but taking into account ore prices, we do the math real time when the basic ore prices fluctuate, either by using excel sheets, or doing math on paper( oldskool way), so we never sell below production cost , your argument here is not valid.

 

When part destruction be limited to pvp, and RDM blunders fixed, community will get back to ship designing and building, so parts are going to be needed anyway.

 

We do require  on case by case basis, reseting talent points, as some ppl spend their point differently due to massive impact of Death patch 0.23. Now when changes are being readjusted  , those might want to get back to crafting, so that Talent reset request  should be an option from this point onwards

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12 minutes ago, Umibozu said:

Industrialists like myself calculate our product prices, but taking into account ore prices, we do the math real time when the basic ore prices fluctuate, either by using excel sheets, or doing math on paper( oldskool way), so we never sell below production cost , your argument here is not valid.

 

When part destruction be limited to pvp, and RDM blunders fixed, community will get back to ship designing and building, so parts are going to be needed anyway.

 

We do require  on case by case basis, reseting talent points, as some ppl spend their point differently due to massive impact of Death patch 0.23. Now when changes are being readjusted  , those might want to get back to crafting, so that Talent reset request  should be an option from this point onwards

Hi, you honor your profession as an industrialist to sell it for a fair price, making it profitable and not undermine others.
I am not only one who observed that lastly the market prices on Alioth are not reflecting the real production costs for some items. That's a fact.

 

That may be because some corp or long time playing individuals have access to huge amount resources without having to pay the high price (24-25 quantas per unit).

Thing is, to be able to sell a batch in a decent amount of time, I may need also to lower the prices very low. As I still mine mostly what is required for the production, I don't make a pure loss. Still this is not a viable way to do long term business. Market resource pricing should reflect ore offer/demand at some point.

 

Ship building will require parts ok... but once you own ships of each and every size/purpose, what else would do you buy? You have limited number of cores anyway. So the demand would be up to new players/accounts joining or those who ventures in the non-safe PvP area?
Ship parts have to eventually die, or/and to get a penalty/malus by loosing performances/features. So you may want to replace them by brand new ones. I crashed ships, know the pain, took days and lot of money to repair  when all was destroyed. Still that makes this game realistic, not forcefully fun (somehow depressing to be honest) but with experience and stories to tell. No pain, no gain. 😋


 

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Hallo, I think you nailed it by recognising that there are just not enough different ways to make quanta in the game right now.

 

So thanks for adjusting the roadmap and pulling forward the mission system and , I hope (although this may be me reading being lines) that it will be more than fedex player induced missions. I understand this will take some time to do though.

 

Hope you find a solution to the unintented lockups from the RDMS change as well though.

 

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8 hours ago, Ligator said:

I only have two alts. But i am considering getting a third for pvp. It is much more fun using the alts in this game than in Eve.

Well yes but alts give those with more disposable income an advantage, eve tries to combat that via being able to sell game time tokens for in game currency, I think this is a bigger discussion but some sort of concensus needs to be around how viable having alts should be.

In SWG I had 13 accounts at one point....

 

Eve I had over 20 but that was down to being able to buy time with in game currency.

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54 minutes ago, July01 said:

Hi, you honor your profession as an industrialist to sell it for a fair price, making it profitable and not undermine others.
I am not only one who observed that lastly the market prices on Alioth are not reflecting the real production costs for some items. That's a fact.

 

That may be because some corp or long time playing individuals have access to huge amount resources without having to pay the high price (24-25 quantas per unit).

Thing is, to be able to sell a batch in a decent amount of time, I may need also to lower the prices very low. As I still mine mostly what is required for the production, I don't make a pure loss. Still this is not a viable way to do long term business. Market resource pricing should reflect ore offer/demand at some point.

 

Ship building will require parts ok... but once you own ships of each and every size/purpose, what else would do you buy? You have limited number of cores anyway. So the demand would be up to new players/accounts joining or those who ventures in the non-safe PvP area?
Ship parts have to eventually die, or/and to get a penalty/malus by loosing performances/features. So you may want to replace them by brand new ones. I crashed ships, know the pain, took days and lot of money to repair  when all was destroyed. Still that makes this game realistic, not forcefully fun (somehow depressing to be honest) but with experience and stories to tell. No pain, no gain. 😋


 

If the prices do not reflect a real production cost, i see possible business  opportunity, and if market price goes below profitable margin i stop producing

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19 minutes ago, Nodles said:

Hallo, I think you nailed it by recognising that there are just not enough different ways to make quanta in the game right now.

 

So thanks for adjusting the roadmap and pulling forward the mission system and , I hope (although this may be me reading being lines) that it will be more than fedex player induced missions. I understand this will take some time to do though.

 

Hope you find a solution to the unintented lockups from the RDMS change as well though.

 

Not to be unkind to NQ but if they didn't know this before 0.23 then there is something seriously wrong with NQ, hopefully this is a lesson learnt.

I have thought at lentgth to why this patch came out, I believe it is out of panic, trying to retain a playerbase they believe are getting bored now that they hit 'end game' but like many have said, this game is not about an 'end game', a sandbox will always be at an end when the player has run out of creative ideas.

SWG did something similar except they did it out of wanting to compete with the big guns (wow). 

They saw how much of a playerbase wow had and either got greeedy or panicked (probably both) and released the 'new-game experience' which to anyone that lived it will send shivers up their spine. 

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Economics are still not working on market prices, they need to be controlled somehow , there is not much loss to pricing low if your not worried about mining and time spent doing it.

The markets provide no MI data on whats sold , the interface is weak

"End Game" - there is no endgame in creativity as already said. I don't think NQ understand why people play a sandbox , solo or community. Perhaps do some more research of players likes and dislikes properly.  Designers (yes including JC) please play the game , the feeling is, if you did maybe you might see some of the obvious stumbling blocks before your release a major patch/change

 

Advanced Vangaurd -- please no , I agree , let people volunteer and be rotated in testing.

 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Lavayar said:

This will lead to overproducrion of items again. PvP occupies not big part of the game. Game needs ways to sink elements not only in PvP. Just fix your physics. It's not sustanible when whole ship blows up from hitting small rock. 

You shouldn't worry about this right now. I completely agree but not only physics bugs but also performance has to be worked out before this change can become viable. Also if PvP gets to it's anticipated size in the near future it will be enough for a while.

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2 hours ago, July01 said:

Hi, you honor your profession as an industrialist to sell it for a fair price, making it profitable and not undermine others.
I am not only one who observed that lastly the market prices on Alioth are not reflecting the real production costs for some items. That's a fact.

 

That may be because some corp or long time playing individuals have access to huge amount resources without having to pay the high price (24-25 quantas per unit).

Thing is, to be able to sell a batch in a decent amount of time, I may need also to lower the prices very low. As I still mine mostly what is required for the production, I don't make a pure loss. Still this is not a viable way to do long term business. Market resource pricing should reflect ore offer/demand at some point.

 

Ship building will require parts ok... but once you own ships of each and every size/purpose, what else would do you buy? You have limited number of cores anyway. So the demand would be up to new players/accounts joining or those who ventures in the non-safe PvP area?
Ship parts have to eventually die, or/and to get a penalty/malus by loosing performances/features. So you may want to replace them by brand new ones. I crashed ships, know the pain, took days and lot of money to repair  when all was destroyed. Still that makes this game realistic, not forcefully fun (somehow depressing to be honest) but with experience and stories to tell. No pain, no gain. 😋


 

You need to account for crafting talents. They make a huge difference. If you calculate raw as a starter you won't see the real price picture. To have any chance to compete in prices with established industrialists you need at least lvl 4 crafting talents in refining/product refining/intermediate parts.

 

What you say in your last paragraph is very true. I've said this before this patch, but it cannot work any other way right now until ships stop exploding for no reason.

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Here’s our plan for now. We will modify the formula of the schematic prices to make it considerably more affordable for Tier 1 and still challenging and worth a commitment but less intense for anything Tier 2 or above. 

A welcome start but actually not the root of the industry issues.

 

The reason why people are being seen to 'solo' or 'self sufficient' is that the fundamental backbone of the markets is broken, absolutely broken and removing the desire to collaborate. The reason? Bots.

 

Bots are placing buy items in the market place and poisonings the market flow down. To make it worse, its being done at the source with ore which is amazingly overvalued. Ore is key as its the starting block of the supply chain and an artificial high in value then creates no desire for anyone to refine, create and then sell their items into the supply chain. Generating a real supply and demand equilibrium will never take hold, and the desire to build industry and actually sell items to other players, or build consortiums to provide goods and services will never materialise. Right now the ore is at a price that's too good to miss and selling it back into the system is the easiest and quickest way to break the recession that 0.23 placed on the community.

 

Remove the bots, let the true supply and demand take a hold, watch the markets grow and stabilise and watch industry grow in the way it was intended, to sustain the wider community and provide a genuine game mechanic.

 

"The great virtue of a free market system is that...it is the most effective system we have discovered to enable people who hate one another to deal with one another and help one another" - Milton Friedman

 

 

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3 hours ago, July01 said:

...Beside that, the 24-25 quantas bots buying ore (temporary), just kill the market. Basically it is much more profitable if I would sell my non-refined ore to the bots instead of spending the time and efforts to invest in schematics, industry building and hours manufacturing, or even trading.
I think the more you try to control the player-driver economy, the more you may ruin it.

100% This. It is ruined. I've posted several times on the forums this week that it's price fixing and that's illegal in the real world for a reason. There's no need for bots in the market place and they need to be removed for the market to find its true equilibrium, supply and demand profile. Bots and price fixing are not allowing industry to breathe in the way that it was intended.

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21 minutes ago, Alpinesun said:

Ore is key as its the starting block of the supply chain and an artificial high in value then creates no desire for anyone to refine, create and then sell their items into the supply chain. Generating a real supply and demand equilibrium will never take hold, and the desire to build industry and actually sell items to other players, or build consortiums to provide goods and services will never materialise. Right now the ore is at a price that's too good to miss and selling it back into the system is the easiest and quickest way to break the recession that 0.23 placed on the community.

Not really. The reason the market is frozen right now is because the economy is not moving in general. There is very low demand on elements, since most ships were grounded, so the factories do not produce and everyone is spending their money on schematics instead of production. With time the market will stabilize and people will start buying ore at higher prices than bots. All market products will be according to those prices. The only thing bots change is the value of the money/quantas. If they did not exist then how do we generate the required quantas to buy the schematics we need for the economy to start moving again? Since this a common missconception they should just move bots from the player market into a vendor like market like any other game, to avoid confusion. Just create a new tab on the market or something.

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  • Element destruction will impact the restoration count only when it occurs through PvP, at least for now (not when the ship is colliding/falling as we want to avoid having players penalized simply for crashing their ships because they’re learning how to maneuver them, for example).

When is this going to be a thing? I had a lag related crash and the count against some elements  still says 2 counts left.

 

One of the struggles I'm having with industry right now is not knowing the recipe for each schematic, thus making multiple trips to market. Can we get a clickable list of the elements necessary to make each schematic in the description so we can purchase them all at once without having to cross-reference with the nanocrafter and making spreadsheets/lists? I really don't need a second job.

 

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The second important initiative is to revise the role of the Alpha Team Vanguard (ATV), getting them more involved in early discussions about new features and the evolution of the game. We are still defining the framework, so more information will be released as available. 

As others have pointed out, disband ATV. They are your leaks. Getting them "more involved" will result in more leaks where they warn their buddies about major upcoming changes.

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9 minutes ago, Rimezx said:

...people with start buying ore at higher prices than bots...

Extremely unlikely as cost drives consumption and not the other way around. It's also generally undesirable, especially as a new player as the cost of the base items dictates the price of the finished and everything in the supply of that item thus a false inflation and overstatement of value.

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2 hours ago, bleakcon said:

Well yes but alts give those with more disposable income an advantage, eve tries to combat that via being able to sell game time tokens for in game currency, I think this is a bigger discussion but some sort of concensus needs to be around how viable having alts should be.

In SWG I had 13 accounts at one point....

 

Eve I had over 20 but that was down to being able to buy time with in game currency.

The only way this can happen is if players can also buy these tokens with irl money and sell them for in game currency, otherwise they just lose profit from people never paying which will never happen. It is a terrible idea in my opinion p2w is not something i want in this game. Anyone willing to spend irl money on the game would have an even more unfair advantage like this. Let's not follow in the footsteps of blizzard.

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22 minutes ago, Rimezx said:

Not really. The reason the market is frozen right now is because the economy is not moving in general. There is very low demand on elements, since most ships were grounded, so the factories do not produce and everyone is spending their money on schematics instead of production. With time the market will stabilize and people will start buying ore at higher prices than bots. All market products will be according to those prices. The only thing bots change is the value of the money/quantas. If they did not exist then how do we generate the required quantas to buy the schematics we need for the economy to start moving again? Since this a common missconception they should just move bots from the player market into a vendor like market like any other game, to avoid confusion. Just create a new tab on the market or something.

Ore prices would've totally tanked had the bots not been available, effectively cutting off substantial amounts of new quanta from entering the game, which is NOT a good thing at this point in development.

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