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blazemonger

Industry changes which may possibly come (and TW as well)

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55 minutes ago, WakeRider said:

Easy implementation of elemental damage would be that each unit has its max hp reduced each time it is repaired. 

if it starts a 1000/1000 then you repair it from 500/1000 there is some RNG and maybe a quality of repair calc and it loses a % off the top then is 923/923. 

until some point it does not function or is so weak that bumping a pillow makes it inoperable. 

so I should go and replace all my elements after each PVP battle even if I win OR I am handicapped ? That was a mechanic in a game called cross-out. They dumped it as you literally loosing money doing anything.

 

When the core is blown up, let 50% of the destroyed components go poof. Any component destroyed after the core is destroyed goes poof too.

 

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Well, if you want an absolutely perfect ship each time. Ya rebuild it. 
Or maybe add a mechanism in that at some threshold it takes no permanent damage.  
 

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15 minutes ago, WakeRider said:

Well, if you want an absolutely perfect ship each time. Ya rebuild it. 
Or maybe add a mechanism in that at some threshold it takes no permanent damage.  
 

How much HP does a L engine have ? I am definitely up to having L container with 150 pages of space engine L in different conditions. Yay \o/.

Common, it will not work.

Moreover, it seems that NQ doesn't seem to ask us about this topic so they already have a plan for it.

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10 hours ago, Ater Omen said:

Game designers have to look at what the top players are doing, they must know what happen when the game is pushed to the limits. I don't know how they could balance a game by looking at average joes.

 

While I do not disagree, the problem in the situation NQ has put themselves in this means that the top players/orgs actually will not or hardly be impacted by balance changes while it becomes increasingly harder for new players/orgs to get to the same level. 

 

NQ has pretty much already allowed a power structure to be set up where the big orgs are near untouchable and will in any situation have a massive and OP advantage over the smaller orgs and new players. And no, arguing that new players should then just join these large existing orgs is not a viable option as it will only create a stringer monopolistic situation

 

NQ IMO made massive mistake by pretty much quietly dropping the partial wipe for the new planet biomes to come in. As I see it they got cold feet regarding the possible fallout from large orgs losing their foothold as doling so would mean territory claims needed to be redone and a second goldrush would happen for the best spots. So once more they sacrificed the quality of the game to appease the existing player base at a time (during beta) where such changes _must_ be expected and accepted.

 

By doing so they also disadvantaged those who choose to start slow, buil temporary facilities waiting for the wipe to then start "for real". In other words, a massive false start.

 

Now NQ is starting to hint that they feel they do not see the direction the game is taking (due to the lack of viable alternatives IMO) of everyone building massive industry for themselves and so they plan to make industry _much_ harder to get into and maintain. What this will do is it will benefit the large orgs once more as they already have the mans and resources to make the changes with little or no effort. Again, not wiping here will just instantly put these larger orgs further ahead.

 

The changes made to industry already, in order to try and keep the backend from consistently falling over, already have greatly impacted "the little guy" and to top it off, it really does nothing but obscure the problems on the backend, it does not solve anything. But NQ is really good at hiding the symptoms and then calling it a fix with regards to the cause, meanwhile the actual issue s are brewing below the surface and _will_ eventually erupt and we can only hope NQ get to clearing the massive technical debt they have already built up before that happens.

 

Do I know any of this is fact? No, I clearly do not but there are very distinct patterns here both within NQ and when compared to similar processes/projects, that lead me to believe I am not far off in my assumption here. NQ is on a path of rushing development and progress and that is never a good basis on which to build a solid foundation.

 

hjdxD7q.jpg

 

 

 

Again, I honestly do not see how NQ can avoid a full wipe (with at best normal blueprints kept and talent points accrued put back in the pool for existing players) at least prior to "official launch" and likely before that. I think NQ is seriously afraid that admitting this may lead to players leaving (and thus loss of badly needed revenue) to maybe return after said wipe but I honestly think the opposite would happen. Players would start experimenting and "playing around" more, trying out new things and thus giving NQ valuable data on the game and how to make it better.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, blazemonger said:

NQ has pretty much already allowed a power structure to be set up where the big orgs are near untouchable and will in any situation have a massive and OP advantage over the smaller orgs and new players. And no, arguing that new players should then just join these large existing orgs is not a viable option as it will only create a stringer monopolistic situation

 

NQ IMO made massive mistake by pretty much quietly dropping the partial wipe for the new planet biomes to come in. As I see it they got cold feet regarding the possible fallout from large orgs losing their foothold as doling so would mean territory claims needed to be redone and a second goldrush would happen for the best spots. So once more they sacrificed the quality of the game to appease the existing player base at a time (during beta) where such changes _must_ be expected and accepted.

Yep, this is what I observing since Alpha more or less. Whole picture fully meterialized during backer early start.

 

We talking about certain lobby NQ obviously quite worried to anger in their decison making process. While it can be called for convinience "large orgs", its more about "old guard" establisment in general, where org membership is relativly secondary and not always deciding factor. And now they idealogicly allied to extent with "super active new guard", people who were especialy hungry and productluve during not_named_thing etc.

 

They will die for unrestricted industry, no wipes and everything that keeps status quo in their favor. Obviously. 

 

(sure I hate idea of wipe too, because put so much work in already)

 

 

 

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Cold

1 hour ago, blazemonger said:

 

<snip>

 

 

 

 

False start, real start, slow start, fast start. Why you care what the orgs have ? How does that affect you ? You will not invent playable mechanics where 50 people working together cannot smash you to pieces both economically and militarily.  If you do then they are broken.

 

Everyone is in a position he is in because he worked to get there. If NQ wipes, crapton of people will leave as they told they wouldn't wipe. I will leave. No, you can't have my stuff as I will not have any.

 

Thinking that wipe will suddenly turn you billionaire because you now know what you know is ridiculous. Should we wipe the game every time some Joe join and say, ow, wipe it so they have the same noob speeder that I have ? Did you want to try it before the real start, should have signed up for alpha.

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2 hours ago, blazemonger said:


 

Spoiler

 

While I do not disagree, the problem in the situation NQ has put themselves in this means that the top players/orgs actually will not or hardly be impacted by balance changes while it becomes increasingly harder for new players/orgs to get to the same level. 

 

NQ has pretty much already allowed a power structure to be set up where the big orgs are near untouchable and will in any situation have a massive and OP advantage over the smaller orgs and new players. And no, arguing that new players should then just join these large existing orgs is not a viable option as it will only create a stringer monopolistic situation

 

NQ IMO made massive mistake by pretty much quietly dropping the partial wipe for the new planet biomes to come in. As I see it they got cold feet regarding the possible fallout from large orgs losing their foothold as doling so would mean territory claims needed to be redone and a second goldrush would happen for the best spots. So once more they sacrificed the quality of the game to appease the existing player base at a time (during beta) where such changes _must_ be expected and accepted.

 

By doing so they also disadvantaged those who choose to start slow, buil temporary facilities waiting for the wipe to then start "for real". In other words, a massive false start.

 

Now NQ is starting to hint that they feel they do not see the direction the game is taking (due to the lack of viable alternatives IMO) of everyone building massive industry for themselves and so they plan to make industry _much_ harder to get into and maintain. What this will do is it will benefit the large orgs once more as they already have the mans and resources to make the changes with little or no effort. Again, not wiping here will just instantly put these larger orgs further ahead.

 

The changes made to industry already, in order to try and keep the backend from consistently falling over, already have greatly impacted "the little guy" and to top it off, it really does nothing but obscure the problems on the backend, it does not solve anything. But NQ is really good at hiding the symptoms and then calling it a fix with regards to the cause, meanwhile the actual issue s are brewing below the surface and _will_ eventually erupt and we can only hope NQ get to clearing the massive technical debt they have already built up before that happens.

 

Do I know any of this is fact? No, I clearly do not but there are very distinct patterns here both within NQ and when compared to similar processes/projects, that lead me to believe I am not far off in my assumption here. NQ is on a path of rushing development and progress and that is never a good basis on which to build a solid foundation.

 

hjdxD7q.jpg

 

 

 

Again, I honestly do not see how NQ can avoid a full wipe (with at best normal blueprints kept and talent points accrued put back in the pool for existing players) at least prior to "official launch" and likely before that. I think NQ is seriously afraid that admitting this may lead to players leaving (and thus loss of badly needed revenue) to maybe return after said wipe but I honestly think the opposite would happen. Players would start experimenting and "playing around" more, trying out new things and thus giving NQ valuable data on the game and how to make it better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, if NQ find the right fixes and decide to wipe to reset orgs powers, how can they be sure that the new system will work? Do they need to wipe when necessary ("necessary" beeing hard to estimate) until they find the right system?  How can they really know the system will du it, when at each new feature or important change they might break big parts of the game?

The server is still young, and ftm a wipe could work, with player base losses nonetheless (too many to recover?), but in the long run is it a healthy behavior ?

edit: I wanted a wipe when we could sell t5 ores to bots, during pre-beta. We would have lost about 1 week, and there was only alpha players, so no big losses would have happened

Edited by Ater Omen

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2 hours ago, blazemonger said:

"A delayed game is eventually good, but a rushed game is forever bad."

So considering DU has been both delayed and rushed at the same time, that makes it.... ? :)

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6 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

So considering DU has been both delayed and rushed at the same time, that makes it.... ? :)

The "delayed' game thing only works well when you have infinite money and can delay infinitely. 


But hey - if that quite is gospel - StarCitzen is going to be absolutely amazing when it releases in xmas of 3532....

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19 minutes ago, Ater Omen said:

So, if NQ find the right fixes and decide to wipe to reset orgs powers, how can they be sure that the new system will work?

 

Exactly, the point here is that the balance fixes will not do anything but put those not on top at a further disadvantage. NQ needs to get the game balanced and fair and then wipe to make that all be meaningful and sensible. Will we see some people leave? sure but the numbers will be far less than the influx of new players looking to make it big and the existing player base who learned form their experiences and growing the game back up quicker than before. Of this I am certain.

 

But I fear NQ is forced to look at the short term for now which in general will mean that the game has no long term planning. NQ is probably operating from one billing cycle to the next currently trying to manage their debt and keeping the lights on.

 

 

19 minutes ago, Ater Omen said:

edit: I wanted a wipe when we could sell t5 ores to bots, during pre-beta. We would have lost about 1 week, and there was only alpha players, so no big losses would have happened

We would have lost a day if NQ had acted promptly but their general "we muist discuss this at length" attitude lost them at least four days and by then it was too late. Their staggered fixes tells me they were well aware of the situation and choose not to act immediately which might well have been a mistake which spilled well into where we are now, including the reversal of the planet changes and not doing the partial wipe.

 

 

 

@XKentX

It does not affect me at all, I do believe it will affect the potential for the game as those who gained a massive advantage early on will not feel much, if any of the balance changes NQ plans to bring in and will in fact see their advantage strengthened as it will become much harder for others to grow into the same position. Thus a situation will emerge where monopolists will rule the game which frankly I believe they already do as I believe the change in plan regarding the wipe was fed by these very player groups finding a willing ear with NQ and possibly playing into the fear NQ has of losing valuable assets and the revenue they badly need.

That the game is unbalanced at this stage is normal, that some will benefit knowingly or by chance is too. That the developer puts themselves in a position they will not have the chance to actually both balance the game and allow a level playing field once they do is IMO bad as it will offset the game where those that took advantage of the imbalance will only get stronger and be less affected by the balancing done after the fact while new players and orgs will have a much harder time to get a foothold because of it.

 

Finally, the all saying nonsense argument implying I am saying NQ "wipe the game every time some Joe join and say, ow, wipe it so they have the same noob speeder that I have". I am clearly not sayin that and it only tells me you are oblivious to the point raised either because you do not get it or you do not want to get it.

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Just now, blazemonger said:

 

Will we see some people leave? sure but the numbers will be far less than the influx of new players looking to make it big 

That's an interesting theory you have but what evidence do you have to suggest that new players would magically show up because of a wipe?

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@Mordgier

People tend to find it easier to jump in on a level playing field, that is a given. We see and hear frequent comments to that effect. Whether it is justified or not is another point of discussion, but it is the case nonetheless.

 

Seeing a game which is grossly unbalanced and seeing a developer not doing anything to make the rebalance affect the game and players evenly and as a whole does not inspire confidence for those on the sidelines.

 

You ask a valid question and could I be wrong here? for sure i can. These are just my thoughts and anyone is free to disagree and/or argue against it. Some however seem to just want to use nonsense soundbites because they know that if I'm not wrong they do not want to hear it because it affects them in a negative way.

 

 

@CptLoRes

I do believe the delays hurt the game in that money ran out and now NQ is rushing to keep the game on its feet and making choices based on  "we need revenue" instead of " this is good for the game long term". NQ is not Halo Games who has some real bad luck in events during initial development and were rushed to release by their publisher but thanks to being a low double digit team and having well over 10 million in the bank from initial sales could make the comeback of the decade from a severely botched launch.

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4 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

@Mordgier

People tend to find it easier to jump in on a level playing field, that is a given. We see and hear frequent comments to that effect. Whether it is justified or not is another point of discussion, but it is the case nonetheless.

 

Seeing a game which is grossly unbalanced and seeing a developer not doing anything to make the rebalance affect the game and players evenly and as a whole does not inspire confidence for those on the sidelines.

 

You ask a valid question and could I be wrong here? for sure i can. These are just my thoughts and anyone is free to disagree and/or argue against it. Some however seem to just want to use nonsense soundbites because they know that if I'm not wrong they do not want to hear it because it affects them in a negative way.

 

 

 

The game isn't meant to be played solo. Look at EVE and look at how much the power dynamics changed in the game over the years despite no wipes and rampant imbalances and even devs helping already op corps - and yet new comers often previled.

 

A wipe will not level the playing field. It will simply reset it.

 

The game is just 1 system. It's a tiny fraction of what the game will be eventually so the current power dynamics are entirely meaningless. 

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12 minutes ago, Mordgier said:

That's an interesting theory you have but what evidence do you have to suggest that new players would magically show up because of a wipe?

Everyone and his grandma already know about DU. They DU now or they will DU on release anyway, wipe or not.

On the other hand, I have been no-lifing this for a week so I have a solid base because I was promised that "it's a go". If they wipe it, it's a broken core promise.

I didn't play where there were some bots or something, I started with public beta on 27th.

 

The balance and some people become monopolists, that's inevitable, we shouldn't even try to avoid it.

All the benefit the exploiters have due to whatever bug they were exploiting during first couple of days will be naturally irrelevant as all those "OMG I have 50mil" is nothing in the long run. It will be pocket change once economy caches up.

The power will be with those who find the new sustainable and constant ways to gain profit as the game moves forward. There is one other game that had a GM giving very valuable items to members, no one wiped, this incident has no meaning nowdays.

 

If they wipe and then there are bugs again(and there will 100% always be! Faction Loyalty Points for those who know what I talk about) what then ? Wipe again ? So do we play persistent universe or a battle royale ?? I didn't sign up for the later...

 

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53 minutes ago, XKentX said:

Everyone and his grandma already know about DU.

This alone pretty much say you really do not get it and invalidates your argument if you have one IMO.. but it's OK..  Stick with what is in your immediate surrounding as that is seemingly all you (care to) know.

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As I see it, players and orgs who put in the work, prepared well and created blueprints for their constructs would have no problem getting back up on a full wipe in a relatively short time, especially if NQ were to move accrued talent points back into the pool. The ones that stand to lose the most are those who took advantage of circumstances in game which would by then have been rectified and/or balanced and so those are the ones likely to complain and cry the loudest.

 

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The main concern of this post is absolutely valid: changes to industry to make it more difficult could very easily favor the larger organizations far too much by making it too difficult to get into. That being said, I would like to point out that this statement:

On 10/10/2020 at 8:27 AM, blazemonger said:

Whatever changes they make will only affect new players and small groups.

does not necessarily have to be the case and should not be taken as an absolute. Surely it is possible for NQ to find a way to balance industry in a way that increases operational costs for larger scale factories without impacting smaller-scale industry. I don't pretend that this will be an easy solution, but it ought to be possible.

 

Additionally, as has been stated, I think a major contributor to this problem is the fact that elements are not technically destroyable, only transferable by means of PvP. There will likely be more demand for things when they are actually permanently lost.

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9 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

As I see it, players and orgs who put in the work, prepared well and created blueprints for their constructs would have no problem getting back up on a full wipe in a relatively short time, especially if NQ were to move accrued talent points back into the pool. The ones that stand to lose the most are those who took advantage of circumstances in game which would by then have been rectified and/or balanced and so those are the ones likely to complain and cry the loudest.

 

Sorry mate, that is not the point, I was told by NQ that beta launch was a soft launch, and that there would be no wipes and if there were, we would be reinbursed.  I made a personal choice to change my lifestyle to fit into that, as a result I have managed to achieve an excellent start, with no such exploiting that you are implying (despite knowing and reporting several).  Wiping now would be a massive kick in the teeth for me and a lot of other players who have dedicated a huge amount of time to a game they we under the impression was LIVE.

 

To delete all that progress to make it 'fair' for new players who could have backed before would be a massive kick in the teeth for me and would possibly cause me to walk away and take the majority of the org with me.

It wouldnt take me a 'short time' to get back to where i am, it would take a month of hardcore playing, that I rearranged my life to enable me to have.  You want to wipe that so some noobs arent put off joining the game?

NQ have ALWAYS said they want new players to walk into a play made universe, to buy ship and services off players.  That will ONLY happen if there is some sort of headstart and players are given the opportunity and tools to offer those products and services.  That is what we should be doing now.  The fact that the major orgs seem to have become completely insular and are not engaging with the community, is another story and something i am very disappointed about.  They should be the ones using their wealth to create the game world for these new players.

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I get what you are saying but I think you are missing the point of my argument. We'll see what happens in the next 12-18 months were we will hopefully be at a point where the game is actually fairly balanced and pretty much ready for "release".

 

I think NQ has already allowed (visual) game improvements to be scrapped as well as let imbalance and exploits create a massive advantage for some (more will come trough balance and fixes) to appease the loud/close few and put revenue before game progress/development. I believe they will not be able to get around a wipe, you and others think differently and/or expect NQ to stick with their commitment of no wipes unless absolutely required (which I think this will fall under, hence it is not excluded anyway).

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19 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

I get what you are saying but I think you are missing the point of my argument. We'll see what happens in the next 12-18 months were we will hopefully be at a point where the game is actually fairly balanced and pretty much ready for "release".

 

I think NQ has already allowed (visual) game improvements to be scrapped as well as let imbalance and exploits create a massive advantage for some (more will come trough balance and fixes) to appease the loud/close few and put revenue before game progress/development. I believe they will not be able to get around a wipe, you and others think differently and/or expect NQ to stick with their commitment of no wipes unless absolutely required (which I think this will fall under, hence it is not excluded anyway).

If they wipe, and the orgs (who have huge amounts invested in this game) say screw you and leave, you will be left with Rust in Space.  A load of noobs, in small groups, surviving and fighting each other.  That is not what I signed up for.  I signed up for civilisation, with nation states, and huge orgs.

I still think a major change I would like to see if stop calling all groups organisations (which implied corporate structure) and instead have GROUPS, with sub categories (NATIONS, ORGS, POLITICAL PARTIES etc) so it is much clearer for new player what they are signing up for.  Most player dont even know you can be in multiple org, or that some org are purely just things like nation states which only provide a set of society rules and mutual defence.  That way players would be more inclined to join as they would feel like they are signing there life away.  Org dont HAVE to be clans / guilds in the old fashioned way other MMOs have them, they can be much broader.  My org for example work with new players to create there own independent businesses which then plug into our network.  We encourage personal ownership and NEVER ask our player to do anything they are not getting a return from, yet a lot of player see all orgs and some sort of slave driving exercise to push a small group of players, this is not the case.

I have no issue with huge major powers in the game, because that is what civilisation IS.  Infact you could argue that solo players are the real problem here, that they are NOT civilised.  Infact the idea that people would travel thousands of miles to another system, with thousands of other people and then fuck off and live in a whole 100km from anyone else is completely laughable.

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I don’t see how the insight in the OP changes anything that the devs weren’t already prepared to accept:

 

You have the fact that right now all ores are essentially PvP reward ores, with PvE risk.  Essentially everything out of sanctuary is planned to be a combination of Atmospheric  PvP and Territory Control.   Which literally means the devs were planning a massive early start advantage where players could collect even the highest tier ores, before the “cost of risk” was implemented.

 

likewise the devs also implemented their Easter Egg Hunt riddle, so another early start advantage there.

 

power was planned for at least ships, so players have had an easier time moving around now than they ever will.

 

Even with the devs being upset at players being too fast/scaled/efficient at industry, to the point of deciding static core need power now.  And to implement a hacked together EVE blueprint clone to further slow them down.   (Honestly clumsy in the same sense of Olympic Officials adding hurdles to non hurdle races to maintain old records, they’re still going to be beaten eventually).

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The problem I have with NQs approach to indy balance is that they cant seem to decide if they want us to be able to do it quickly or not. We went through alpha where we told them "hey indy and mining are too slow for it to ever be able to provide for the majority of the playerbase." This led to us getting the mining changes, crafting changes, and more crafting skills. 

 

Now it seems NQ believes industry is too easy and too fast. Granted this ignores that for the first week or so you were able to still sell high tier ore to bots and buy loads of industry. Would we still see the massive indy setups even without that? Probably. But this is what NQ should want. They should want some players or orgs to have very large scale setups so that they provide for the other players. 

 

To their actual planned changes, they exist as speed bumps and not actual nerfs. Assuming they dont do anything crazy like require 1 generator per 5 metalworks, there's no deterrent to just building more power generation. Especially if they allow some form of passive generation from solar panels or wind turbines. 

 

The buying crafting recipes thing is just another quanta sink that frankly we don't need. Why not make an actual research gameplay element or at the very least tie it to the production itself. Want to make T2 recipes? Make a lot of T1 parts so that your character starts to learn how to make things better. That is quite literally how things work in real life.

 

A lot of this stems back to the game needing more quanta faucets that arent tied to industry or to mining. Everything in the game stems from mining right now and it hurts the game as much now as it did a year ago.

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Bottom line is money talks.  Ive talked to a lot of people, and some streamers.  If they wiped just because....there would be a lot of subs that would not be re-newed.  Mine included.  Will I come back after release? Maybe. Will everyone, who knows.  But in the short term it would hit them financially pretty hard if they wipe.  The only acceptable wipe would be if NQ said "the server fucking broke beyond repair" and we had proof they weren't lying.  Beyond that, kiss a lot of revenue good-bye if they wipe, which as it seems, they desperately need.  My guess is there is no way in hell they are gonna wipe. 

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On 10/10/2020 at 10:22 PM, Maxnano said:

There is currently no way for anything thats mined to die or vanish. 

Actually, there is, and it's huge. People are making intermediary components and then selling them to bot orders for a profit. Also steel voxels are another crazy way to make money. Hematite and coal can rise to ~35 quanta a liter and mega bot order exploiters will still be making money.

 

People are deleting probably tens of millions of t1 ore a day via this (and inflating the quanta to meaninglessness). Maybe as much as a hundred million.

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