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Tsyolin

EVE Online's $1,000,000 Battle Bust and What it Means for Dual Universe

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I originally submitted this post to /r/DualUniverse (which you should totally check out if you frequent reddit) but considering this forum gets more attention I figured it would be best to post it here as well.

 

So if you're a fan of MMOs or Sci-Fi games in general you probably noticed a post on /r/gaming about a possible $1,000,000 battle that was gonna go down in EVE Online. It blew up and even made national news in Canada. https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/7sa25p/after_15_years_eve_online_is_having_its_first/

 

Now for those who followed the event (or if you were like me you were there personally), while it was intriguing to watch and talk about it was clear that overall it was a pretty big bust. Granted, the reddit post in question somewhat predicted this, what couldn't be predicted was all of the server issues that would plague this battle. Being that EVE is a big influencer of DU and another sandbox Sci-Fi game, I want to address some of the mechanical and server-side issues that came up and what they mean for DU.

 

There's more reasons then just the server as to why not a whole lot happened but I really won't go into detail about them since they aren't important. This battle broke the previous record of pilots in one single system with a peak of somewhere around 6,100. That's HUGE, it may not seem like many but when you consider most modern MMO's aren't single-shard and that many games in general can't support more than 64 dudes in one instance, it's really quite impressive. Over 6,000 people in one place and as a result the server node, which was heavily reinforced by CCP, shit the the bed. So generally when a server node is under a lot of stress the game will automatically start to slow down so the server can keep up with all the calculations. This is referred to as Time Dilation, or TiDi for short.

 

Tidi can slow down the action down to less than 10% real time which means actions can easily take 10 times longer. Once the server gets past 10% tidi it begins prioritizing certain commands over others and that's when shit starts breaking, client crashes are frequent and modules break resorting you to spamming them hoping they turn on or off accordingly. The reason the fight ended prematurely is because carriers couldn't replace lost fighters due to server lag. Needless to say, even on lowest graphics settings (which is necessary in these fights), your framerate will be awful. Still, the fact 6,000 people were in one place and the sever had to calculate all of the actions of those players and their drones/fighters and the node didn't crash is somewhat impressive. Before Tidi the server would simply crash under too much load.

 

So I wanna raise a similar question regarding Dual Universe. Now I know the technology EVE was built on is outdated, and even tho server hardware has been upgraded over the years, the game still runs on a single core rather than multi-threading. Switching over to multi-threading would mean having to rebuild the game from the ground up. Dual Universe has the privilege of being developed today where the tech is better rather than 2003. Hell, Novaquark have even released videos displaying stress tests of how well the game handles a lot of people in one place. While impressive, it doesn't necessarily put all my doubts to rest. Calculating 1,000 people walking around in a small area isn't quite the same as 6,000 people shooting at each other among other things.

It could be argued that due to EVE's focus on PvP that those sort of fights are more prone to happen in EVE than in a less PvP focused game like DU. However being that it's a sandbox title, by nature anything can happen. Players generally like to work together to forge massive empires and alliances full of thousands of people. And naturally, wars will break out because let's face it video game wars are fun. It's not unreasonable to think that a fight like this could happen in DU if the pieces fall into place. What I'm wondering is if the game can handle it, obviously we don't really know as of yet, but I think it's worth being discussed.

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This would fit in offtopic, General forum isn't for Eve.

 

Stopped playing eve a year ago and don't follow it anymore.

 

Such things might happen in DU too and that's why they have their Server tech.

 

EVEs code is fubar and tidi was only implemented to handle that mess -while making it not better. DU doesn't need that as nodes are split dynamically (unlike eve where each system is a node). So it doesn't really matter how many players there are, the nodes will split accordingly

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I think it would fit here, he's telling a story from EVE, among it concerns about server tech. He wants to know if DU can handle the same thing.

 

Which, I think it can, or it will once it's actually out. We'll have to see.

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Hello,

 

I suggest you to check this blog post: https://devblog.dualthegame.com/2014/09/26/a-single-shard-continuous-universe-one-world-no-boundaries/ (from 2014 already)
... and this youtube demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeZtqoydXpc
They both explain how NQ developed single shard technology.

 

Also note that Dual Universe is PvP oriented. There is no creative mode.

 

PS: As Tsyolin uses EvE as a reference to raise specific concerns, I think it fits well here.

 

~ Merwyn

Edited by Mod-Merwyn
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We simply don't know how well DU will cope with a 6000-ship battle. Or if it will cope at all...

 

We're still in the early stages of testing the "DU Theory". Once the game has actual PVP systems implemented, we'll be able to get a much better feel for what the limits will be. And there will be limits...

 

You can certainly split that 6000 spaceships into 600 "logic bubbles" that can each be assigned to its own server dynamically, but all those servers have to continuously communicate every little detail with each other, because all the players in all those instances are trying to interact with each other in realtime. Handling 6000 ships in the same general area is one thing, it's quite another matter when those 6000 ships are all trying to kill each other.

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Also a good video to watch at around the 3 minute mark, though this is from a while ago, I think the message is clear.

 

Though we will have to wait for CvC to see how that affects ..well.. anything. Wait and see.

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41 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

a 6000-ship battle

Well this might be take DU a several years to get it. Because one ship need 2+ player to battle (not count fighter) amd a 6000 ship battle it will seem like more than 12000+ player will join it and wow, i LOVE to see that scene. (i hope that time come the CPU and server are already god like to handle those without drop fps :) )

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Why do people think there will be battles involving thousands of ships? Most players in huge factions (a.k.a. those that could be part of those battles) will not be part of military and those who will be won´t all command their own ship. I think current limit of players per construct at any time is 100, but they want to raise it even higher. We may get to the point where 200 players crew one vessel.

Unless the battle is fought with one-man ships, there will not be battles with thousands of participating ships. My bet is that bigger battles will be on the scale of Scariff and the biggest (equal to those huge EVE battles with dozens of titans) will be on level of Endor.

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In theory the mechanic Dual universe has in development looks better suited with better overall performance but there will always be trade offs and we will have to wait and see how these pan out.

 

DU will have a long way to go before it can claim to be competing with EVE in sheer player numbers and frankly, while there are similarities between the two, these are very different games. I very much enjoy the fleet roams we have several times a week in EVE, it's a couple of hours of fun, banter and hectic action with often surprising tactical choices being made. As it stands I do not see any such events happen in DU for any number of reasons.

 

While both are open world sandbox style games, EVE does have a developed and strong universe, political system, commerce and Industry. DU has none of these yet and it will take a good bit of time for the development of these. Frankly, I do not take the existing orgs too serious and it's quite obvious many involved really have no idea what they are doing or getting into. The moment some of the bigger alliances in EVE move into DU there will be a number of conflicts between those who think they understand the game and those who bring structure, organisation and leadership. I know some of the bigger EVE alliances will move in to the DU universe once it becomes an actual working game. They will come in force and establish themselves quickly.

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On 2/4/2018 at 12:29 PM, blazemonger said:

In theory the mechanic Dual universe has in development looks better suited with better overall performance but there will always be trade offs and we will have to wait and see how these pan out.

 

DU will have a long way to go before it can claim to be competing with EVE in sheer player numbers and frankly, while there are similarities between the two, these are very different games. I very much enjoy the fleet roams we have several times a week in EVE, it's a couple of hours of fun, banter and hectic action with often surprising tactical choices being made. As it stands I do not see any such events happen in DU for any number of reasons.

 

While both are open world sandbox style games, EVE does have a developed and strong universe, political system, commerce and Industry. DU has none of these yet and it will take a good bit of time for the development of these. Frankly, I do not take the existing orgs too serious and it's quite obvious many involved really have no idea what they are doing or getting into. The moment some of the bigger alliances in EVE move into DU there will be a number of conflicts between those who think they understand the game and those who bring structure, organisation and leadership. I know some of the bigger EVE alliances will move in to the DU universe once it becomes an actual working game. They will come in force and establish themselves quickly.

 

Moving group of players from one project to another isn't as easy as it sounds. Even if an alliance is strong and well organised in one game there is no guarantee that it will be possible to move people to another project. Why? Because there will always be those who'll tell that they don't like something in a new project or they like something more in the old one. I have seen so called "multi-game communities" that claim having organisation on several different projects simultaneously... but all I have seen were different groups of players on different projects, just having some contacts and "old friends"  visiting each other from time to time. But  I don't believe in moving multi-thousand Alliance from one game to another - usually those big alliances have quite a problem when they need to move from one location to another within the same game - that's where drama starts and alliances split into fractions and peaces. And you tell me about big alliance coming from established game where players spent years, got used to it into a new project which is ambitious in goals but did not reach even official release? You are either not serious or you are overly optimistic about these ideas - reality might disappoint you badly. I think that there might be leaders of organisations on DU who had experience in leading guilds, alliances or what ever types of groups of players in other projects and who'll use their experience in building strong organisation in this new game. But it will be built here, not moved from somewhere else.

 

Returning back to topic as someone already wrote before we only have an information on the fact that DU developers are aware of problems during multiplayer activities. They think they have a way to solve these problems... It sounds intriguing for me and this is the main reason I am following the progress of DU development. As soon as there will be a chance to test what they have achieved and as soon as they will prove that they are able to achieve what they have set as a goal before them, I'll be glad to join other players and test how it works. If it works well and the game is fun, then I'll be glad to subscribe and become a customer. Until then it's... well Intriguing as I said, but that's it for now. It might become a big thing if it succeed and it can be forgotten quite soon if it won't show up good (or at least promising) results in like couple years from now (as people won't be following just promises for too long and let's not forget that some have even invested in promises - these might not be so quick on stopping following, but that might become a bigger problem later on :-) ).

 

All in all I wish all the best to this project, I hope it will deliver what has been promised as it would be fun to have such a game... but guessing of how "it will be" is way too early right now. And arguing about these things... well :) I'll leave it to others to find the right name for such process :D

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23 minutes ago, Kirtis said:

 

Moving group of players from one project to another isn't as easy as it sounds. Even if an alliance is strong and well organised in one game there is no guarantee that it will be possible to move people to another project. Why? Because there will always be those who'll tell that they don't like something in a new project or they like something more in the old one.

 

If 5% of a 30.000 player alliance makes the move they will instantly have 1500 organized members in game.

I know of at least two big alliances with preparation ongoing to establish a presence in DU. I think you underestimate the organizational strength of some of these alliances.

 

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16 hours ago, blazemonger said:

 

If 5% of a 30.000 player alliance makes the move they will instantly have 1500 organized members in game.

I know of at least two big alliances with preparation ongoing to establish a presence in DU. I think you underestimate the organizational strength of some of these alliances.

 

I won't argue that group of organized people can make a difference. More than that - I already wrote that even one skilled leader who has experience of building an organisation can be very successful in a new environment as he already knows what usually works in gamer communities and what does not. And if one skilled leader (or a group of leaders) leaves one game and forms an alliance in a new game - there is a big chance that he'll succeed. And if he'll use the same tag as in a previous game, it can be seen as a transfer of alliance. But if you'll check the rosters you'll see that these are two different organizations that have only the tag and few people in common.

 

All I doubt about is moving Alliance as a unit to a different game. Those alliances, that you mention are usually quite diverse communities of people who often do not communicate and don't even know each other directly. They are actually a union of great number of way smaller groups that have some agreements (and often disagreements) on their leadership (diplomatic officer) level. They are not an empires united by loyalty to one leader or even a group of leaders. They just have some common goals for the time being regarding the territory in a taken game or some other things regarding the game they are playing. But once you'll tell these people event to move to a different location within the game or to do something that they did not plan to do when they joined an alliance there is big chance that they'll tell you to put your orders where sun does not shine :D And that's the reason I don't believe in transfer of alliance from one game to another. 

 

And discussions about "big alliances with preparation ongoing to establish a presence in DU" are pointless right now because no one can tell when there'll even be a chance for these alliances to try an attempt of "establishing presence in DU". It might be that these alliances won't exist even in EvE by the time DU will be released;) there might be changes in EvE that will be so good that people won't be even interesting in moving somewhere else at that time. And a whole bunch of reasons why even me and you (who are interested in DU) won't actually play it eventually - with all honesty we know almost nothing about the game yet. All we have is a raw idea which sounds good and atractive for the time being but noone knows yet when it will be implemented and how good the implementation will look in practice.

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We say DU will not have 6000 ship battles but do we know?  Are any measures being put in place to ensure players remain spread out rather than gathering for empire vs empire lag fests?  

 

I played Eve ages ago and had the most fun in small engagements of 20 vs 20 or so.  Larger fights look cool but I found them to be boring, shooting at targets a commander called or what the lag would let me target.  

 

Now is a good time to be asking players what kind of fights they are looking for and thinking of ways to make them happen. 

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On 02/02/2018 at 12:42 AM, Lethys said:

This would fit in offtopic, General forum isn't for Eve.

 

Stopped playing eve a year ago and don't follow it anymore.

 

Such things might happen in DU too and that's why they have their Server tech.

 

EVEs code is fubar and tidi was only implemented to handle that mess -while making it not better. DU doesn't need that as nodes are split dynamically (unlike eve where each system is a node). So it doesn't really matter how many players there are, the nodes will split accordingly

The issue I've noticed is that things can get de-synced very easily in DU.

 

NovaQuark should outline their confidence in how much bandwidth there will be between each dynamically scaled node in their clusters, If there are 6000 players in an area only a few cubic kilometers across in DU, in orbit above a city, how well will the synchronization of assets passing in and out of the subsequent scaled nodes be is a question that remains to be answered.

 

Even though DU is single shard, how will they tackle high latency between users near their server and users far from their server geographically? The only way I can see things behaving fluidly is if they have more than one central server based on geographic distance, we don't have instantaneous internet connections. 

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23 hours ago, Anomaly said:

We say DU will not have 6000 ship battles but do we know?  Are any measures being put in place to ensure players remain spread out rather than gathering for empire vs empire lag fests?  

 

I played Eve ages ago and had the most fun in small engagements of 20 vs 20 or so.  Larger fights look cool but I found them to be boring, shooting at targets a commander called or what the lag would let me target.  

 

Now is a good time to be asking players what kind of fights they are looking for and thinking of ways to make them happen. 

Large Fleet Battles will happen when ships "jump" to a point to capture it or outnumber  & outclass the defensive units already there.

 

So for example a large capital ship is holding down outside a planet with rich resources. Any smaller ships arriving out of jump will be easily chewed up by this bigger ship, small ships swatted like the mosquitos they are.

 

So the correct response is to outnumber and with same level class ships this capital ship to wipe it profitably for minimum loss, then take control of this planet ie be the new current blocking party. Also noteworthy: Once a major planet of resources is found, setting up planetary defences and digging in infrastructure so that not only is there a blocking ship(s) but constant ground/air offensives for any invaders trying to resource/territory claim on terra firma also and not easy to remove either. Note we'll need avatar vs avatar pew-pew in underground fortresses while smaller construct ships and floating ground constructs attack above ground.

 

So yes small engagements will be fun but large fleet battles will be STRATEGIC tipping-points for map control. Itself dependent on numbers of orgs (Alliance) and Economic Engine backing it.

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Difference is that to fly a capital ship in DU you will probably require a good number of player as crew while in EVE you need only 1. Also the chances of this many ships in the same place is much less likely for a number of reasons.

 

i mentioned before I fly 50-80 ship roaming fleets several times a week and frequent specialised 12 ship fleet with logistics in Wormholes. These fleets are a lot of fun for the action in game as well as the banter and enjoyment on comms. I do not see these happening in DU really as focus will be more on multi crew ships and the whole navigation mechanic is much different. 'Roaming' starsystems really does not work in the DU universe.

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12 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

Difference is that to fly a capital ship in DU you will probably require a good number of player as crew while in EVE you need only 1. Also the chances of this many ships in the same place is much less likely for a number of reasons.

 

i mentioned before I fly 50-80 ship roaming fleets several times a week and frequent specialised 12 ship fleet with logistics in Wormholes. These fleets are a lot of fun for the action in game as well as the banter and enjoyment on comms. I do not see these happening in DU really as focus will be more on multi crew ships and the whole navigation mechanic is much different. 'Roaming' starsystems really does not work in the DU universe.

This is constructive discussion material.

 

I'd make a guess that the system that could be employed could be:-

 

1. small ships are short-range fighters ie fly at speeds in planetary atmosphere and around planets, take a while to travel between planets, no jump drive.

2. Interplanetary ships with Jump drive much larger and require bigger crew, and practically impervious to smaller ships albeit a helluva lot of small ships needed, again comes with weapons system much more powerful and numerous - that's the big pay-off.

3. Repeat with Interstellar Ships again size and power and crew number requirements. These can cruise through Star Gates (some mumbo jumbo about size and gravity). Likewise large Freight Ships are going to have to be huge to use these gates too.

 

Each "Size Class is a RANGE of sizes within each Class". Notably some megaships might be able to transport smaller ships like aircraft carriers as well. But the main outcome:-

 

The higher up you go, the more the tactical battle between these colossus ships is like 3D chess over huge distances and power and movements (like what's that board game: battleships at G8 HIT!) kinda like The Forever Wars spaceship battles. Whereas those smaller ships, more like Star Wars pew-pew action around planets.

 

Maybe this is entirely outside what the devs envision with "any ship anywhere" can travel anywhere if the right stuff is built. But then and again that's the point of large ships as ferries for smaller constructs perhaps and suddenly ferrying is a huge industry in itself?

 

Or perhaps someone has an even better vision or spots the fatal flaw in all the above?

 

 

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I think people coming from an EVE background need to realize that while JQ has on several occasions said EVE is a big influence and inspiration for him and DU, he does not refer to how you fly ships as that is completely and totally different between the two games. DU will not be nor become 'EVE: The Next Generation'.. I see the similarities much more in the political and economical systems and IMO it's there where DU will be 'won or lost' if you like, it's something a lot of people either ignore or do not see and which makes DU even more a community driven game than EVE is (which really is saying something).

 

That said, the 'flying spaceships' factor needs to be done right for the game to work overall.

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14 hours ago, MookMcMook said:

Each "Size Class is a RANGE of sizes within each Class". Notably some megaships might be able to transport smaller ships like aircraft carriers as well. But the main outcome:-

A ship class is not the same as a ship type.

You are talking about ship types, not classes.

A ships class is a given name to that design, for example the Bismarck class, while the type is combination of size, main armament and usage, in the case of the Bismarck class a battleship.

There was already a lengthy discussion about ship type naming standards in DU and to sum it up: its unpractical to discuss this topic now, because we simply don’t know how big ships will be and what armament they can support at those sizes.

 

One major difference in combat between eve and DU will be, that in du you don’t have healthbars and the possible speeds are much higher.

This means, that when you orbit a planet, you might only have a short time frame to engage the enemy, because you are orbiting the planet in the opposite direction or you can more easily disengage.

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25 minutes ago, Takao said:

A ship class is not the same as a ship type.

You are talking about ship types, not classes.

A ships class is a given name to that design, for example the Bismarck class, while the type is combination of size, main armament and usage, in the case of the Bismarck class a battleship.

There was already a lengthy discussion about ship type naming standards in DU and to sum it up: its unpractical to discuss this topic now, because we simply don’t know how big ships will be and what armament they can support at those sizes.

 

One major difference in combat between eve and DU will be, that in du you don’t have healthbars and the possible speeds are much higher.

This means, that when you orbit a planet, you might only have a short time frame to engage the enemy, because you are orbiting the planet in the opposite direction or you can more easily disengage.

Well is there a standard convention for DU on terminology for space ships?

 

CLASS signifies to me: CATEGORY

 

TYPE signifies to me: FUNCTION

 

*impractical

 

Incorrect, it can be categorically declared without need for accuracy eg

 

* Small

* Medium

* Large

 

The main point is, is:-

 

CLASS or CATEGORY can be defined around SIZE which itself is a product of DISTANCE CAPABILITY.

 

= "A set or category of things having some property or attribute in common and differentiated from others by kind, type, or quality."

 

English Oxford Dictionary.

 

Basically a SET OF OBJECTS GROUPED LOGICALLY.

 

And the most logical ordering property we have to speculate on atm is: SIZE as related to:-

 

1. Number of Player Crew Required directly proportional to increasing size.

2. Distance of Travel possible related to increasing size above thresholds allowing some technology to be added.

 

You have to have a substantial PAY-OFF for grouping an increasing crew-size in larger spaceship:-

 

* More skill specialization per avatar

* More cooperation complexity with increasing numbers to keep players functional and not redundant

* Rewarding such social pressures with big pay-offs eg power in offense and defence, distance capacity and hawlage, ferrying prowess etc

 

And bear in mind a superior Sized Ship even if not directly in battle as part of an organization is a powerful defensive/guarding/patrolling AREA OF SPACE CONTROL Construct for the Economic resource capture of the organization.

 

This to me is the vision of where PVP will really shine, combat warfare being carefully calculated. Little pew-pew ships being a total write off against such a majestic beast...

 

Anyway, if there is a standard terminology for DU spaceships, I'd like to know!

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22 minutes ago, Takao said:

A ship class is not the same as a ship type.

You are talking about ship types, not classes.

A ships class is a given name to that design, for example the Bismarck class, while the type is combination of size, main armament and usage, in the case of the Bismarck class a battleship.

There was already a lengthy discussion about ship type naming standards in DU and to sum it up: its unpractical to discuss this topic now, because we simply don’t know how big ships will be and what armament they can support at those sizes.

 

One major difference in combat between eve and DU will be, that in du you don’t have healthbars and the possible speeds are much higher.

This means, that when you orbit a planet, you might only have a short time frame to engage the enemy, because you are orbiting the planet in the opposite direction or you can more easily disengage.

As players design ships it's Not that feasible to introduce Classics or types, I agree. Just give your ships a female name and you're good :D

 

Eve: 15km/sec

DU: 5,5km/sec

 

EVEs velocities are much higher for small ships. And you can't really compare Eve to Du in terms of PvP, interception maneuvers, tactics and stuff as they both use completely different systems

 

 

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On 04/02/2018 at 8:41 AM, Dorlas said:

Why do people think there will be battles involving thousands of ships? Most players in huge factions (a.k.a. those that could be part of those battles) will not be part of military and those who will be won´t all command their own ship. I think current limit of players per construct at any time is 100, but they want to raise it even higher. We may get to the point where 200 players crew one vessel.

Unless the battle is fought with one-man ships, there will not be battles with thousands of participating ships. My bet is that bigger battles will be on the scale of Scariff and the biggest (equal to those huge EVE battles with dozens of titans) will be on level of Endor.

Yes, yes, yes.

 

This is the picture I envision happening as it (I guess) works with the grain of networking atst as scaling up pvp into an organized resource-&-labour intensive endeavour of powerful constructs dominating huge domains in space thus creating very stable and very large swathes of safe space for builders effectively.

 

Likewise: VERY large orgs are going to dominate this game and the rewards will be terrific: Entire Solar Systems for example! This no doubt will drive smaller orgs to explore and fight each other over the scraps of new solar systems with multiple small orgs fighting over an entire planet and it's moons... and this is where pvp will be at it's most intense. The proxy wars, phony wars will boil hottest here offsetting the established cold wars of large orgs.

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41 minutes ago, MookMcMook said:

Well is there a standard convention for DU on terminology for space ships?

As I sad: there is none.

The most logical choice would be to use the terminology of todays and past naval ships and adapt them where needed ("Battlestar" type ships for example).

41 minutes ago, MookMcMook said:

CLASS signifies to me: CATEGORY

 

TYPE signifies to me: FUNCTION

That is what I have sad.

A battleship type ship has the function of engaging large enemy ships as it's primary function while also beeing able to defend itself against several smaller ships.

 

41 minutes ago, MookMcMook said:

*impractical

 

Incorrect, it can be categorically declared without need for accuracy eg

 

* Small

* Medium

* Large

Those terms are all relative and therefore at the moment meaningless for categorising DU ships.

Is a 250 m long space ship in DU small, medium or large? We don't know yet, because we don't know the costs (time, resources and money) and practicability of such a ship.

 

41 minutes ago, MookMcMook said:

The main point is, is:-

 

CLASS or CATEGORY can be defined around SIZE which itself is a product of DISTANCE CAPABILITY.

The type can be defined by size, not the class.

Germany could have called a cruiser type to be called "Bismarck" class for example.

The type was primarily defined by the main armament, which itself depends on the size of the ship. Bigger guns need a bigger ship.

We don't know how this will be in DU, we can just guess.

Of course you will need a bigger ship for more guns and people.

 

41 minutes ago, MookMcMook said:

And bear in mind a superior Sized Ship even if not directly in battle as part of an organization is a powerful defensive/guarding/patrolling AREA OF SPACE CONTROL Construct for the Economic resource capture of the organization.

Beeing part of it is everything ;)

 

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QUOTEWARS!

 

"Torpedoes Away!"

 

Takao: I'm firing at G6-E3-andhmm:-K11

 

The size like I said can be a range of sizes DICTATED BY DISTANCE Function:-

 

* Small = Atmospheric Physics and Space propulsion : Minutes between Planets

* Medium = Interplanetary ie Jump Speed or whatever tech is called upon: Seconds Between Planets

* Large = Interstellar ie can pass through Star Gates (again some critical mass requirement fangled technobabble reason interacting with Gravity or "Skip Space blowing a hole through the fabric of space and time itself"). Or as simple as the mass of the ship over a certain size to house the technological mass of the actual engine performing these distance hops...

 

"DIRECT HIT! Takao is sinking..." :P

 

Notice this fits in snuggly with the idea of increasing crew size and thence standardization of gameplay (crew number is critical point here because then it's what do the players need to be doing on board ships to have fun?) <-> Ship Categorization.

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