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WAR, what is it good for?


Omfgreenhair
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Hello fellow DU-bros.

 

I was wondering if this topic was discussed in depth yet. Knowing that construct vs construct and pvp will be a thing in the game, knowing there won't be prefixed factions you choose at the start, what would be the benefits in an universe as DU to start a war?

 

Also, while we are at it, what would be the situation or set of conditions in which a war would erupt in DU?

 

I wanted to discuss this idea because we will have several major factions and a whole lot of tiny factions, but at the same time we will have a massive world with a potential endless array of other planets to thrive on. So I'm wondering if a full scale war would be a thing.

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You can bet there will be wars. The first reason that comes to mind will be... They'll happen because people want them. Two militaristic factions may go to war simply for the fight; it's a game, and shooting spaceships with your spaceship is fun, so thus, war in a game is fun!

 

However, that won't always be the case. Organizations can own land with Territory Control Units. They can also own ships and other things. But those things can be stolen, hacked, etc. So you could attack a faction to try and take what they have. Maybe their territory is sitting on a bunch of good resources.

 

Or perhaps they have similar goals as you. Maybe your goal is to set up a safe and guarded trade route through an otherwise dangerous system, and you charge money for people to use it. And someone comes in and starts to set up another one to compete with you... Go attack them, destroy their possessions, so that they can't achieve the goal that you want. 

 

So bazically, people will go to war because they want a fight, they'll go to war because they want what someone else has, or they'll go to war in order to weaken an opponent. 

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English (Translator used)

 

For those who would like to fight, there are no other enemies than the players (no NPC available).

 

 

German (orginal)

 

für die die gerne kämpfen möchten gilbt es keine anderen Feinde als die Spieler (kein NPC vorhanden).

 

 

mfG Die Waldfee

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So far in pre-alpha, the reason to declare war on somebody, whether it made sense or not, was because there were people or whole orgs you just didn't like. Perhaps because they compared you to unlikeable people in leaked chat logs, perhaps they spammed on your discord server, perhaps they tried to recruit members from your org, perhaps they insulted you or maybe you just don't like the way they like to play. All that is more than enough reason to declare war on somebody and raiding them. 

There are surely a lot of pragmatic reasons for war, but as ATM said, war will be there because people want it. That's likely going to be the main reason and people will find a pretext for that then.

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English (Translator used)

 

Hello Croomar,
I hope for a better future. Because there is enough space to get out of the way. Those who want to fight should look for fighters as opponents and this does not have to be war at the same time.

 

 

German (orginal)

 

Hallo Croomar,

ich hoffe auf eine bessere Zukunft. Denn da ist genug Platz um sich aus dem Weg zu gehen. Die die kämpfen wollen sollten sich Kämpfer als Gegner suchen und das muß nicht gleich Krieg sein.

 

 

mfG Die Waldfee

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In my opinion, at least in Alpha the only reason to war will be to test any mechanics that are implemented. Since the servers are going to be worked on and reset, there is no long term gains by war and thus it will probably only be done for fun and to bug test. Once the full game is released the reasons will be the same as real life: struggles over valuable resources or land, trying to destroy the assets of an enemy, just plain power struggles for show or politics, and I guess for fun too.

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First to all, there will be war simply because a lot of people like pvp. That's all the reason you need in a game, and it will probably be the primary motivator for most people. I know I intend to participate in some pvp, regardless of whether there's an official war on or not. 

 

Additionally, you need to realize that there aren't actually an infinite number of planets for us to use. Not in a practical sense anyhow. Interstellar travel without warp gates will be very very time consuming, and warp gates will be both expensive, and difficult to build. We don't have final details yet, but JC mentioned in an interview that they're thinking of it taking up to a month to set up a warp gate. 

 

Therefore, the scope of the game will essentially be limited to the number of systems currently connected by warp gates. So, with limited space and resources, conflicts will erupt.

 

But you're also thinking of a narrow and formal concept of war which has only really existed for the last several hundred years. For most of recorded history, conflicts didn't really have beginning and ends, they only had upswings in intensity. Raiding between tribes, for example, wasn't restricted to who was officially at war with who, it just happened whenever people wanted it to. That will be very much the case in DU, with official "wars" being mostly a formality people declare as a propaganda statement.

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In short, for profit. Losses stimulates economy. Everyone is throwing more resources and money to build a war machine.

 

But as many like about DU being a PVP game and simply it's fun for many to blow things up. There is group of people who love the idea of single shard MMO when you can simulate large scale social and economical mechanics. Sure war can be one of it. But not for society that is trying to build cashless economy. 

 

I'm not delusional, it will be hard with bunch of trigger happy people but that very fact would approximate difficulties of creating such society in RL. 

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3 hours ago, huschhusch said:

English (Translator used)

 

Hello Croomar,
I hope for a better future. Because there is enough space to get out of the way. Those who want to fight should look for fighters as opponents and this does not have to be war at the same time.

 

[...]

mfG Die Waldfee


In an ideal world, it would be the case that you leave those who don't want to fight out of your conflicts. In an ideal world. In a realistic setting, the vast majority of people won't give a shit if you're a non-pvp group. Pirates and raiders will attack whoever they want to and people will declare war on others because they want to. Sometimes, there might not even be another reason than saying "We can win against them". A simple test of strength is enough motivation for some. This game attracts exactly those who like PvP and large-scale wars, that's what this community is made up of.
Sometimes people might also be victim of larger wars, colleteral damage in a sense. When larger factions battle it out and just try to destroy anything in a factions sector of influence, then even the people who aren't involved in that war will become victims.
And then it doesn't matter how much space or other possible opponents there might be. People who only just want to build and create stuff will either have to join an org capable of protecting them or spend weeks or months to travel to a remote system that is not yet discovered by the majority of players.

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English (Translator used)

 

You can do Olypian games, you can make competitions of all kinds, but why do we have to play the real life and still in the worst way?
Are we so unimaginative?

 

 

German (orginal)
 

Man kann Olypischespiele mach, man kann Wettbewerbe aller Art machen, aber warum müssen wir das reale Leben nachspielen und das noch auf die schlimmste Weise ?

Sind wir so einfallslos ?

 

 

mfG Die Waldfee

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1 minute ago, huschhusch said:

English (Translator used)

 

You can do Olypian games, you can make competitions of all kinds, but why do we have to play the real life and still in the worst way?
Are we so unimaginative?

As the others said. Wars and fights will erupt for various reasons including for sport/entertainment. There's nothing unimaginative about that, if so i'd argue that constant peace for those who doesn't wish to fight is very much more unimaginative. In a player driven universe it doesn't really make sense to try to uphold a status quo for non-willing combatants. 

 

If i lets say have an army at my disposal and a competitor to my nations trade department (lets imagine its you in this case) who are hogging the markets we are interested in and we lag behind in our economy as a result. Do you expect me to ignore you and pick my fights with other military forces? Smashing heads until neither of us have any resources left to fund our war-machines with? I doubt it. And while in some cases people might do exactly that for fun, others want to play smart, which in this case would mean that i'd show up on your front porch with a ton of guns and either demolish or rob you, maybe both even. Because its was the best way for me to solve the situation and gain a bunch in the process.

 

TL;DR There's nothing unimaginative with forcing smart wars 

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Quote

 

If i lets say have an army at my disposal and a competitor to my nations trade department (lets imagine its you in this case) who are hogging the markets we are interested in and we lag behind in our economy as a result. Do you expect me to ignore you and pick my fights with other military forces? Smashing heads until neither of us have any resources left to fund our war-machines with? I doubt it. And while in some cases people might do exactly that for fun, others want to play smart, which in this case would mean that i'd show up on your front porch with a ton of guns and either demolish or rob you, maybe both even. Because its was the best way for me to solve the situation and gain a bunch in the process.


 

 

English (Translator used)

 

Hello Zamarus,
You describe the real life here; Yes in this game, no one dies really, but the pain of the loss remains. Joy from the game is then only the winner and this fun does not last long, because there is always a stronger, mean, richer. What is such a game culture to play in a build-up and explorer game?

For example, I w
ould like to relax in this game and not lead a war. I can have that in real life.

 

 

German (orginal)


Hallo Zamarus,

Du beschreibst hier das reale Leben; ja in diesem Spiel stirbt keiner wirklich, aber der Schmerz des Verlustes bleibt. Freude aus dem Spiel zieht dann nur der Gewinner und dieser Spass hält in Regel nicht lange an, denn es gibt immer einen stärkeren, gemeineren, reicheren. Was soll eine solche Spielkultur in einem Aufbaufbau- und Entdecker-Spiel ?

 

Ich zu Beispiel möchte mich in diesem Spiel entspannen und kein Krieg führen. Das kann ich auch im echten Leben haben.

 

 

mfG Die Waldfee

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DU is a persistent, single shard sandbox game with focus on rebuilding society. 

It's just natural there are wars. Only because you can't understand why someone would wage war in a game or does PvP doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Or that you're right. It just means you play a different aspect of the game. Let them wage wars and do your stuff. 

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44 minutes ago, huschhusch said:

 

English (Translator used)

 

Hello Zamarus,
You describe the real life here; Yes in this game, no one dies really, but the pain of the loss remains. Joy from the game is then only the winner and this fun does not last long, because there is always a stronger, mean, richer. What is such a game culture to play in a build-up and explorer game?

For example, I w
ould like to relax in this game and not lead a war. I can have that in real life.

I think you miss the point here. For one, its equally a war game as it is build, exploring and anything else. Its player driven and the players chose to do whatever they like to. And I just described a scenario where i thought you would understand why people could attack each other despite if the victim wants to fight or not. Doesn't matter what you think really. There will be people trying to live peaceful lives as builders and traders, but there will be people who attacks other players for different reasons. A game of this scale will have many types and you cant expect neither to be a warmongering one.

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The fact that it's hard to relocate from one planet to another or populate other mineral rich areas does form the soil for war.

 

It's interesting to read that the primary reason mentioned is "for fun". Mostly interesting because war is expensive, very expensive since the developers did mention 'it would take quite a while before the first person reaches space'. So I guess this is where designers and engineers earn their bread and butter.

 

When I think about it, in a later stage, a war for the dominion over the first world (or at least the key parts around the Ark ship) could be real. Players in DU are the key resource and if you hold dominion over the starting area, you have the monopoly in recruits.

 

Want to travel or through this area? Pay up! Can't? Work for us instead!

 

I like the answers! Gave me a good image for what's to come.

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Absolutely nothing, War, huh, yeah. What is it good for. Absolutely nothing. Say it again, why'all...

 

2de5259.gif

 

 

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On a serious note: 

 

10 hours ago, Omfgreenhair said:

Hello fellow DU-bros.

 

I was wondering if this topic was discussed in depth yet. Knowing that construct vs construct and pvp will be a thing in the game, knowing there won't be prefixed factions you choose at the start, what would be the benefits in an universe as DU to start a war?

 

Benefits will come to those organizations who's primary focus is mining, prospecting, outsourcing and construction. We'll need ships and lots of them. 

 

Quote

Also, while we are at it, what would be the situation or set of conditions in which a war would erupt in DU?

 

Many set of conditions, a war could erupt over basically anything; religious beliefs, political dilemmas, treaties etc. ... even over a twinkie...

 

Quote

I wanted to discuss this idea because we will have several major factions and a whole lot of tiny factions, but at the same time we will have a massive world with a potential endless array of other planets to thrive on. So I'm wondering if a full scale war would be a thing.

 

I don't see full scale wars happening at all during the first couple of years of Dual. There's just no possible way to be big enough, territory wise or military wise at the start... but as the years go, we'll definitely for sure see huge scale wars. :)

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15 minutes ago, Lord_Void said:

In this game, war is fun and it is what drives the game. Its causes are as diverse as they are irrelevant. 


Actually, this is a precise point that has not yet been directly mentioned. Similar to real life, war can be an economic machine that drives entire empires and enterprises.
If you look at the vast majority of business orgs in DU, they usually profit from war. The ship building orgs can likely sell higher quantities of war vessels. Transport and exploration is just another focus and the larger nations mostly plan on having their own industry to create vessels for a dedicated military.
There are few orgs that actually revolve around building much else. And if all of these orgs we have in pre-alpha with their focus on war and protection persist throughout the testing phases, we will have a large warmongering playerbase around at release that will plans to work efficiently with their war industry.
It's an economic aspect as well because the businesses will tag along with that industry if it's more profitable than building cargo freighters. And with an arsenal of destructive machines, you'd gain the power and the will to use them, that's where we reach the aspect of player willingness again.

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While war is obviously good for players who enjoy fighting, what about those who do not?  I happen to be someone who is neither very good at nor very interested in combat.  It is something I like to avoid if I can.  If I am that kind of person, why am I going to play DU, where there will be a lot of combat?  If I prefer designing and building to fighting, why am I planning to be a wanderer on an independent freighter instead of staying in the Arkzone where I could design and build safely?

 

While I do want to avoid fighting, I also want avoiding it to feel like an accomplishment. It would not feel that way if fighting was not possible.  However, if my organization can deal with other ones peacefully in a game where attacking each other is common, if we can succeed by being helpful where others use force and intimidation, I will be very happy with what we have achieved.  Of course, there is no guarantee that we will be able to do that and I do not think there should be.

 

So, for me at least, war is good for being avoided. 

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2 hours ago, Ben Fargo said:

While war is obviously good for players who enjoy fighting, what about those who do not?

 

There is a lot more to war than front lines. There are supply lines, overseers, auxiliaries and numerous other jobs that need to be done that don't involve direct combat. As mentioned above, you may not want to fight but you better hope there is fighting or else there will be very little demand for people who don't fight. Without destruction, production will slow to a crawl. Just because you don't want to pull a trigger doesn't mean you won't like war. 

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8 hours ago, Comrademoco said:

I don't see full scale wars happening at all during the first couple of years of Dual. There's just no possible way to be big enough, territory wise or military wise at the start... but as the years go, we'll definitely for sure see huge scale wars. :)

 

Well, that's subjective to the idea of "full scale wars". I'd say there will be Org vs. Org conflicts involving a lot of players as soon as the first bubbles goes up, no matter what size or quantity of military materiel, arsenal or vehicles there is at the time.

 

2 hours ago, Ben Fargo said:

While war is obviously good for players who enjoy fighting, what about those who do not?  I happen to be someone who is neither very good at nor very interested in combat.  It is something I like to avoid if I can.  If I am that kind of person, why am I going to play DU, where there will be a lot of combat?  If I prefer designing and building to fighting, why am I planning to be a wanderer on an independent freighter instead of staying in the Arkzone where I could design and build safely?

 

While I do want to avoid fighting, I also want avoiding it to feel like an accomplishment. It would not feel that way if fighting was not possible.  However, if my organization can deal with other ones peacefully in a game where attacking each other is common, if we can succeed by being helpful where others use force and intimidation, I will be very happy with what we have achieved.  Of course, there is no guarantee that we will be able to do that and I do not think there should be.

 

So, for me at least, war is good for being avoided. 

 

Build a bubble, build friendship.

 

As sure as the large PvP Organizations will look for someone to fight, they will also look for friends and allies - cause you cant have too many of those. In my experience, the harsher the sandbox, open-world PvP is, the more valuable allies and friendly strangers are.

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