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ChipPatton

My Community Has Withdrawn Our Pledges

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The less wealthy won't necessarily have to "farm first" in the manner you seemingly suggest.

People with time rather than money could very well have surplus.

In Landmark, many of us were giving away resources and equipment for free to newbies because we had tons of surplus.

Seems to me that if you add pirating to that (or rebellion smuggling), it might not be as much of an issue as the OP thinks.

 

I agree it could be a game changer - I just think it's too soon for us to assume it will be like Eve or other non-voxel games.

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I think the best possible answer is:

 

Kickstarter at 315k with 23 days to go.

 

Sorry to see you go. kthxbai

Let's not do this. Mainly because I see kickstarted more then half way the first few days fail after that. We need a it's not going to be successful unless we help pull our weight attitude. 

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The problem is that the ones who pay real money will replace their lost fleet/defenses/forts/whatever in a matter of seconds by using the blueprints and buying the materials directly from the market (well not in seconds, just the ammount of time necessary to pick up and transport the goods from the market to the target destination). However, the less wealthy ones will have to farm first and that will take forever if the destroyed constructs are big and expensive. It can be a game changer if a specific organization has rich members in the real world and the other doesn't and they are at war. 

But yeah, like mentioned before, illegal gold sellers would still be present and the problem would still be there even without the DACs. At least this way NQ can use the legal money to improve the game. 

Money doesn't make up for markets keeping up with demand. A battleship may take up to a week for a factory to manufacture, possibly longer. How many people will have factories to do that? Not many that is.

 

 

And no amount of money will speed up production lines, or imbue someone with skill to win a fight.

 

Not to mention, if a guy drops 1000 USD worth of DAC in the market, will make the cost of a DAC in in-game cash go WAY WAY down.

 

It's called supply and demand. 1000 USD worth of DAC will be worth less the next time, since the demand for it won't be that great and until the markets catch up and the prices start going up again, the guy with the 1000 USD will actually make much lesss money in the process.

 

 

Also, piracy. You know, good ol' pirates will keep an eye out for them high-tech ships going to the Arkship to retrieve them DACs.

 

 

I guess you'll get to read articles on the internet with titles like " DUAL Universe player loses 1000 USD worth of DAC to a pirate ambush". It happens a lot in EVE with their version of DAC (PLEX).

 

Bottomline : Say THANK YOU to Cybrex and his Band of Outlaws for being the scurvy pirates that the game may not actually deserve, but the one it trully needs. :V 

 

 

 

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Let me know if you think this is a derail and I'll start a new thread, but...

 

I joined COPS because I know Kiklix from Landmark. he's a fantastic voxelmancer who specializes in building spaceships and I'm interested sharing the resources I've harvested with him for free to help with his projects. I'm and explorer. I often explore solo. And I'm Chaotic. So, I loved the concept of a loose band of rogue "pirates" who sometimes group together to achieve common goals - not because of the demands of strict rules, but because we want to.

I view COPS as a sci-fi version of Robin Hood and his Merry Men.

I hope Band of Outlaws will be the same now that COPS has been disbanded due to forum drama.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I'm wondering why we'd have to hire allies. I don't think Robin Hood had to hire his Merry Men.

I don't think the Rebels in Star Wars had to be hired.

And, I guess I am wondering about looting defeated ships for tech and fuel and looting defeated opponents for implants (maybe we can loot implants and other treasure stored in ship inventory?)

In DU, is in-game money the only way to obtain implants, etc?

I mean, we can build our own ships and harvest our own resources for the materials, so will replacing ships be the same kind of issue it is in Eve?

In a voxel game, does Pay2Win mean the same thing as it does for a non-voxel game like Eve?

I thought Kiklix disbanded COPS due to the "main forum troll's efforts", whoever that troll may be.

 

Robyn of Locksley and his Merry Men fought against a tyrant (a person ascending to the position of a king or a leader without any regard for the line of succession or protocols involved in leadership). Who was the unlawful ruler Kiklix fought against exactly?

 

 

Money is not the only way to be paid. You can trade services for stuff. You should be asking for "contractual payment in kind", AKA, you are hired to do something or fetch something or deliver something, and you get an implant as a reward as stated by the contract upon completion of the job you were hired for. That way, a DAC can be issued as a payment for a really tricky mission, like destroying 30% of a player's asset (ships, house, factory, etc.). You can also, barter for stuff. Trade a ton of banans for a ton of mangos.

 

 

I get the feeling some guys really don't know much about how economics work by this point...

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My guild has withdrawn its support of the Kickstarter because of the pay-to-win the DAC adds in which we were told very specifically on the KS page that DAC was "set in stone" by the project creator. Some, understandably, will argue that DAC is nowhere near pay-to-win, but our scope for defining a pay to win game is quite specific:

 

 

According to this very specific doctrine written by our community officers years ago, this game fits well within the realm of pay-to-win.

 

Our guild has had a lot of bad experiences with pay to win and models exactly like this, most notably from EVE where we engaged in Alliance v Alliance wars in nullsec. After the Plex was added to the game we found the wars came down to wallet sizes as ISK (which could be gained by dumping thousands of Plex on the market) meant everything in a war, from hiring allies, to replacing ships and implants. Our members are fiscally responsible adults ranging from lawyers, executives, and politicians to labor workers, consultants, and unemployed. We are a diverse group and we enjoy having equal footing in any game we play. EVE became a cesspool of wallet wars that our unemployed couldn't participate in, and our more privileged demographics wouldn't participate in.

 

Our community's officers asked us yesterday to withdraw all of our pledges from Dual Universe's Kickstarter with the following message:

 

 

And that, sadly, is how we feel and confirmed 19 withdrawals ranging from top-tier to gold pledges (we all wanted access to the alpha and had many of our members donated pledges to other members for that access).

 

If this ever changes we will reconsider our pledges or subbing for the game if a pledge is too late.

This is tricky. Turns out, in IRL people aren't created equal. Some people have more time and not much money (usually younger people), some people have plenty of money but not much time (generally older people). Unfortunately there are folks that have very little of either.

 

Having a way to turn IRL money into in-game resources provides a way for people who have money and not much time to get ahead. If there is a direct system ($ -> ISK for example), usually money offers a huge advantage.

 

However, in this case, PLAYERS determine the value of these subscription based on supply and demand. If enough people spend their IRL money and inject it into the market, it ends up not providing much of an advantage to the players who have money to burn. The players with lots of time and not much money also benefit.

 

A system like the one posed here and in Eve helps equalize player groups where there are desparities in time and money.

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1: Kiklix left because he felt compelled to defend the reputation of COPS against people who thought having "pirates" inherently meant that the org was comprised of griefers. Post like the one started by OutlandishRep drove him nuts.

 

2: Robin of Locksley fought against a tyrant - the Rebels of Star Wars fought against the Empire. That sounds like the type of Alliance vs Alliance wars ChipPatton mentioned. If there is some form of elite Alliance using DAC to hire mercenaries and you're against them, why not just form a rebel band who bands together simply because they hate the tyrannical misuse of DAC?

Kiklix didn't form COPS to fight against anyone - he just formed an org that would act as a loose band of lone wolves who might group together for a common goal - when/if a common goal presented itself. Btw, the tyrant that Robin Hood fought against was Lawful. Robin Hood was Chaotic. That was Chaotic Good vs Lawful Evil. (Or, sometimes Neutral Good vs Lawful Evil.)

 

3: Yes. Seems to me that people can also barter or give surplus away for free or use other forms of diplomacy. Seems to me there will be a variety of ways to acquire allies and items.

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Humans being what we are, if there is a supply and a demand, a market will form. In gaming, there is clearly a supply of people who have time and want money, and people who have money and want time.

 

It is all very well to argue in the abstract that this market should not be permitted, but while we play in virtual worlds, we live in the real one -- and as we all know, if a legal market is not available, an illicit one will arise.

 

In games, this illegal market is RMT. RMT has numerous pernicious side effects for both legitimate players and the developers; legions of botters, ripoffs, significant customer support expenses, etc. One tactic to address this is to create a legal, regulated market -- and thus we get PLEX, CREDD, and now DAC.

 

Keep in mind that with these tokens, you are trading game time (and thus real-life $) for in-game resources that someone, somewhere had to expend effort to gather or create (as opposed to being created by the developers in a cash shop) - and because it's a legal market, that source is less likely to be a bot. Also note that the market tends to self-regulate due to supply and demand.

 

Tokens like DAC become P2W when you can use them to buy advantages (and in particular, advantages not organically available in-game) in the developer's cash shop.

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Money doesn't make up for markets keeping up with demand. A battleship may take up to a week for a factory to manufacture, possibly longer. How many people will have factories to do that? Not many that is.

 

 

And no amount of money will speed up production lines, or imbue someone with skill to win a fight.

 

Not to mention, if a guy drops 1000 USD worth of DAC in the market, will make the cost of a DAC in in-game cash go WAY WAY down.

 

It's called supply and demand. 1000 USD worth of DAC will be worth less the next time, since the demand for it won't be that great and until the markets catch up and the prices start going up again, the guy with the 1000 USD will actually make much lesss money in the process.

 

 

Also, piracy. You know, good ol' pirates will keep an eye out for them high-tech ships going to the Arkship to retrieve them DACs.

 

 

I guess you'll get to read articles on the internet with titles like " DUAL Universe player loses 1000 USD worth of DAC to a pirate ambush". It happens a lot in EVE with their version of DAC (PLEX).

 

Bottomline : Say THANK YOU to Cybrex and his Band of Outlaws for being the scurvy pirates that the game may not actually deserve, but the one it trully needs. :V 

 

 

 

 

It doesn't matter if it takes time to produce the ships because it will be the same for the ones not spending real money in the game, but those will have to farm the materials all over again and that takes time too. The wealthy DAC organizations will always be faster in acquiring resources. Let's also not forget that a lot of people with tons of free time will also spend real money just to be the first ones in getting stuff and creating powerfull organizations to dominate the game. That is the advantage aspect of having DACs. Sure, if no one or just a few buys DACs with in-game money that would not be such a game changer but i think it's safe to assume there will be high demand for it and therefore giving advantage to the p2w players.

 

But like i mentioned before, this is something impossible to change since illegal gold sellers always find a way to disrupt this type of games and by using the DAC system, at least we know the money will be put in good use by the devs. I'm ok with that... it's the lesser of the two evils!

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It doesn't matter if it takes time to produce the ships because it will be the same for the ones not spending real money in the game, but those will have to farm the materials all over again and that takes time too. The wealthy DAC organizations will always be faster in acquiring resources. Let's also not forget that a lot of people with tons of free time will also spend real money just to be the first ones in getting stuff and creating powerfull organizations to dominate the game. That is the advantage aspect of having DACs. Sure, if no one or just a few buys DACs with in-game money that would not be such a game changer but i think it's safe to assume there will be high demand for it and therefore giving advantage to the p2w players.

 

But like i mentioned before, this is something impossible to change since illegal gold sellers always find a way to disrupt this type of games and by using the DAC system, at least we know the money will be put in good use by the devs. I'm ok with that... it's the lesser of the two evils!

 

I don't think this would always be true, for instance: if a battleship took a week to build and you were able to make enough money in game to buy it within a weeks time, you're effectively on equal footing with DAC holders. This is under the assumption that battleships are constantly in production and that you don't need to order (and pay) for one in advance. 

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It doesn't matter if it takes time to produce the ships because it will be the same for the ones not spending real money in the game, but those will have to farm the materials all over again and that takes time too. The wealthy DAC organizations will always be faster in acquiring resources. Let's also not forget that a lot of people with tons of free time will also spend real money just to be the first ones in getting stuff and creating powerfull organizations to dominate the game. That is the advantage aspect of having DACs. Sure, if no one or just a few buys DACs with in-game money that would not be such a game changer but i think it's safe to assume there will be high demand for it and therefore giving advantage to the p2w players.

 

But like i mentioned before, this is something impossible to change since illegal gold sellers always find a way to disrupt this type of games and by using the DAC system, at least we know the money will be put in good use by the devs. I'm ok with that... it's the lesser of the two evils!

You do understand that DUAL has no NPCs to give quests or sell items to, right? Gold sellers can't exist. Market wizards are another thing. They are the same guys who play with stock exchanges.

 

 

Therefore, a wealthy organisation, will ALWAYS have the money to buy ANYTHING they want, DACs or not.

 

 

If 10 youtubers and 10 streamers come together and start pushing one ship blueprint as being "the besterest" in the game" and nooblords start buying that blueprint like it's going out of style, that organisation owning that blueprint is gonna be rich.

 

 

Also, DACs can be stolen. And given how the game's mechanics function, HEISTS will be a thing. So please, LET THE 10,000 USD nooblords come in the game with their DACs. I can't wait to read the drama behind how they got robbed.

 

 

And you, should go back and figure out a thing called math. You seem to think resources are infinite and scanning / exploring for resources will be easy / cheap. They won't. A dreadnought will cust A LOT of DACs and it would guarantee peole who don't want to pay for subscription can play witn in-game cash. 

 

 

It's a symbiotic system. If you can't accept that, it's your problem. 

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The problem folks is that there is no perfect way to pay for game development yet found. Stop arguing and get inventing. The system proposed is the current imperfect front runner. You can't satisfy everyone; It's just not possible. 

 

And if anyone leaves in a huff that's more voxels for me!

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Please provide a legitimate source for..

 

"DACS can be stolen"

I dont think there is a source for that.

But since DAC can be traded on the market it is reasonable to assume that they are like everything else a physical item.

 

Though I am sure that they dont have to be physical I think chances are they will be.

 

If there is a source I'd like to see it because that means I havent read everything yet.

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Calling DAC pay-to-win just doesn't make any sense. You're saying its unfair to your unemployed members because they can't afford to pay for ingame currency, but I would suspect that they would have a lot of extra time to grind for it. On the other hand those of us that are employed may not have much extra time and would prefer not to spend the little time we have grinding, so eliminating the DAC system would give an unfair advantage to the unemployed. You also mentioned that the plex system ruined EVE because your unemployed werent able to keep up. I played EVE for eight years, and the ability to buy plex for ingame currency was the only thing that made that game affordable for me while I was unemployed.

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Please provide a legitimate source for..

 

"DACS can be stolen"

DACs = physical items in your inventory that can be traded for in-game cash.

 

Items drop = confirmed by the devs.

 

Why do you think people want to be scruffy pirates? Them sweet DACs of yours will be tasty indeed.

 

 

Use cerebral functions to make the connection that the Devs hinted at, when they said "DACs are PLEX from EVE in essence".

 

 

And you just got in my "to-rob" list. have fun.

 

 

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I think you're getting ahead of yourselves.

 

You're making assumptions.

 

I SERIOUSLY doubt NQ will allow someone to steal a month of gameplay from someone else

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I think you're getting ahead of yourselves.

 

You're making assumptions.

 

I SERIOUSLY doubt NQ will allow someone to steal a month of gameplay from someone else

Welcome to the cruel reality of things. The reason DACs can be stolen is why it's not Pay-2-Win directly.

 

You get DAC only in the Arkship, scruffy pirates will wait for that pretty ship that arrived to get the DACs.

 

Look at all the stories in EVE and how people gave 5000 USD worth of PLEX (the original DAC ;) ) and how they were stupid enough and got robbed by pirates.

 

You are so so so so naive :D

 

I can feel the carebear in your ready to cry out "Pl0x not let piretz in ze game".

 

Ahoy me hearty, get ready to be boarded.

 

DACs = consumable items that can be traded. They are Dual Access Coupons.

 

A DAC cost around 18 USD, the subscription directly costs 13 USD. The DAC can be exchanged tho from player to player, like a tradeable item.

 

 

And it can be stolen like any other item, if you put it in a bank and a heist goes down in that bank. People hack the containers if they are left unchecked, vaults are pried open  if the DACs are in your personal safe and so on.

 

And when you die or your ship is destroyed, them pirates wil lhave them DACs if they are in a container or you drop them on death.

 

 

Now you understand why trading is about risk and reward and why space-truckers are a thing in this game and why protection escort ships can be hired and all the EMERGENT FRIGGING GAMEPLAY can happen.

 

 

Wait, you wanted carebear heaven for trading? Perhaps turn PvP off? Neither that wil lhappen.

 

 

Scruffy pirates are everywhere O_O

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Pssssssst don't tell everyone that they have to worry about their DACs.

 

 

It's perfectly safe and fine to carry them around. Even outside of that safezone. Please get your DACs and bring them to your underground base. Fill out a form I will provide so that your safe passage there is guaranteed

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Uuuuh considering all of the kickstarter rewards were 100s of euros worth of DACs I sure as hell hope the dev's provide some sort of secure storage in the ARK otherwise there is going to be a lot of tears when people start getting robbed for serious amounts of real world value in the first few hours.

 

Definitely going to have to confirm this and possibly sort out some sort of housing in the safe zone before ever setting foot outside.

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Uuuuh considering all of the kickstarter rewards were 100s of euros worth of DACs I sure as hell hope the dev's provide some sort of secure storage in the ARK otherwise there is going to be a lot of tears when people start getting robbed for serious amounts of real world value in the first few hours.

 

Definitely going to have to confirm this and possibly sort out some sort of housing in the safe zone before ever setting foot outside.

sure, but you would need to go to the Ark to get the DAC and or sell it to someone on the Arkship's (possible) marketplace.

 

Likewise, delivering a DAC far from the Arkship for X, Y, Z reasons, will make the DAC's price go up due to the risks involved.

 

 

So yeah, risk and reward, supply and demand, piracy and yarr. All come together.

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Don't let the door hit ya on the way out!

 

The Kickstarter will be funded with or without you.  The game will happen, with or without you.

 

I'm not really sure why this thread was necessary.

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