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There have been some topics around this area, particularly with building ships, but I feel that the this is a concept valid for the entire game. In a huge civilization-building, player-interactions-driven game, I feel that having people skilled in just certain areas will eventually lead to a more enjoyable experience for players. And this is something that many people may disagree with upon first hearing it, but find in the long run that they think it works really well. Or maybe they'll hate it! I want to share my opinion on it though, and I ask that those reading, who may think it's stupid, give it a chance. Also remember that there are two sides to this, neither are correct, and both are valid. It's just opinion based.

 

If anyone is familiar with the game series LittleBigPlanet, the first and second iterations for the PS3 played a huge role in a season of my life. They were the main games I played for months, and I had a friend who was into it as I was. Anyway if you don't know the game, it's not important. Basically, you use some basic tools to make little minigame-ish things (I'll refer to them as levels).

 

Anyway, in the first game, there were a few levels and creators that stood out significantly from all the rest, because they were fantastic (anyone that knows the name "Lockstitch" off the top of their head is a freaking awesome person). Me and my friend, we knew exactly what tools were available, and what you could and "couldn't" do. But some few levels stood out to us because, as people who knew the game inside and out, we had no clue how they some of these things were accomplished. A fair few levels were outstanding and amazing due to their mechanics and visuals.

 

When LittleBigPlanet 2 arrived, there were tons and tons of new tools added. These were fun and great to be sure, but they made everything that made the old levels special, not special. Because, all of the fantastic things that had been done before (in the first game) were now basic and easy because there were tools to do them (in the second game). This made a lot of great content a lot more common. Which of course was a good thing. And there were certainly levels that still pushed the boundaries. But overall, by making cool and unique things easy, it made great content a lot more common and thereby a lot less special.

 

If Dual Universe makes building easy, and mining easy, and combat easy, and exploration easy... Well, then there are going to be lots of amazing ships, and lots of miners, and lots of warriors and lots of explorers. You may say, "that sounds great!" But, remember my exceedingly dramatic and emotional story. When you make it easy, it stops being special.

 

In a game like Dual Universe, where player interactions and jobs and organizations are such a key factor, it shouldn't be easy to do anything. It shouldn't be easy to switch from a being an efficient miner working for a large corporation to a stupendous explorer finding rare resources on hostile worlds at the edge of the known galaxy. Sure, you can switch job titles and do whatever you want whenever you want, because it's a game! I'm just saying you shouldn't be able to switch from being outstanding at one thing, to suddenly outstanding at another. This allows individuals the opportunity to stand out, and be known for something. "Hey he's that guy that makes that line of super efficient yet powerful ships. I don't know how he comes up with that stuff." "What, you want to send Xx_M8_SLAYR_xX to go hunting for that anomaly? He's an architect, someone else will find it way sooner!" If someone wants to be known for something, then they go for that something and only that and they end up being great at it, and known for it. Lots of people will choose to not do this, which allows the few that do to stand out.

 

I can't really say much else that I haven't said already. I believe I've gotten my point across. Regarding designing ships or stations, it's easier to see how an individual could be better at it than most others. Mining or exploration expertise could be accomplished, not just by having better equipment or skills, but also by there being hidden techniques that people just have to learn by doing it. Thank you for reading and please try and be civil in your response, as, once again, both opinions are valid!

 

 

When everyone's special, no one is...

And if you're good at something, never do it for free!

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I have been a proponent of the "harder is better" philosophy from the beginning.

 

I think that things in the game will be more rewarding if you have to work to get them. 

 

Wurm Online was 99% grind and it was still super rewarding after you built something massive, even if it took months to do it. I'm not saying DU should be grind, but it should at least be difficult.

 

Getting into space should be a rewarding feeling, like you managed some huge accomplishment. Going to another planet should feel the same way, putting a space station into orbit, etc. All of those grand things should require a massive amount of logistics to accomplish, and will then feel that much more rewarding. 

 

I also like the idea of having survival mechanics like food and weather/temperature. I know that food has generally not been a well received suggestion on the forums, but I still would like to have food/beverages in the game, at the very least for RP sake.

 

 

You and I can be in the "everything difficult" club because I feel like this suggestion won't be well received :P 

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I agree, when everyone is special nobody is.

 

I'm a proponent of easy to pick up, hard to master. It "should" be like playing chess. Anyone can easily pick up the game and learn the rules but it takes insight to be a master at it.

 

Does that make sense?

 

Complexity should emerge out of the interactions between a simple set of rules. At least thats how I feel about it. :)

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My concern is that they dumb down the logistics chain so that you can just dig metal out of the ground then instantly build anything (taking this to the extreme version).

 

There should should be a requirement to smelt ore and the use factory blocks to assemble components before creating elements.

There should be scope for a skilled factory operator to optimize their production system by automation and clever factory design.

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  1. Easy mode; As described already. 
  2. Hardish mode; someone has moved your cryopod out of the safe zone to the other side of the planet. Dig and hide. But the nanoformer works. 
  3. Hard mode; As per hardish mode but the nanoformer is on the fritz you take damage every time you use it but you can make a healing booster that fixes it if your close, you can pick stuff up by making a lever and cut stone with a hammer and wedge, Strip branches form trees with a pruning hook. Dig dirt with primitive pick-hoe. make a 3D printer and fix the nanoformer with a repair kit from it. 
  4. Extreme mode: defective cryopod, you emerge a zombie. You can walk, jump, turn, melee and make a nanoformer attack but nothing else works until you harvest a vital resource to fix your brain and nanoformer. And everyone is hunting you because you have a useful resources drop. How long can you last as a space zombie. 

[i keep writing about space zombies and awaiting someone saying "Noooooo no zombies!" But All I hear is a worrying silence. Scary. ]

 

Hard and Extreme mode would both be sweet griefer penalties.  

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Hello,

I would like to streass a point about hardness. there are two kinds of hardnesses: hardness on factors you cannot interact with, hardness on factors you can interact with.

The first would be rarity of a material, that has many usefull uses. This makes the game frustrating as you cannot interfere in it, this is the bad kind of difficult.

The second would be the complexity of the production chain and its optimisation. this makes the game frustrating in itself, but if the production chain is very simple to make, but very complex to make an efficient one, then it is fun because you have a sense of interaction and progression.

 

these are nuances that discern a good from a bad game.

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Well I like the idea that you can build a simple stone furnace that is wasteful and it produces a lot of waste slag and isn't very efficient or you can build a massive electric furnace that has a much better efficiency and if you put all your training into a refining skill you can increase that even further.

 

Anyone should be able to pickup the game and have fun but to be competitive and make huge stuff you need to invest in skills and work as a team.

 

edit: Basically make industrial craft with more benefits for working as a team and I will be hugely happy

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Well I like the idea that you can build a simple stone furnace that is wasteful and it produces a lot of waste slag and isn't very efficient or you can build a massive electric furnace that has a much better efficiency and if you put all your training into a refining skill you can increase that even further.

 

Anyone should be able to pickup the game and have fun but to be competitive and make huge stuff you need to invest in skills and work as a team.

 

edit: Basically make industrial craft with more benefits for working as a team and I will be hugely happy

 

not even industrialcraft will do. not even gregtech. what will probably do the best is thermalExpansion and its popular addons.

ThermalExpansion does that thing where every machine is based on a chassis and that chassis has different tiers (in DU the number should be infinite) each machine can then have different stats depending on the chassis (the better the chassis the better the stats) than you have a certain amount of upgrade slots that let you specialize in certain domains, and you can use upgrades of a certain tech level with chassis same level or higher.

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"

I have to agree with this. Team play should be rewarded especially when it comes to undertaking large projects. No one builds a mega project alone and the largest masterpieces take massive amounts of time or spectacular joint effort. Building, mining, programming, exploring and so on should be accessible and easy to do for the individual; not everyone that will play Dual Universe will come here with friends and it is impossible for everyone in an organisation to be online at the same time. If I want to build simple things, or code simple scripts, I should be able to do so on my own as well. Novaquark should be able to find that silvery line between both to make the game as balanced and immersive as possible. 

 

Team work should make things easier and possible. Solo play should make certain activities enjoyable.

"

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  1. Easy mode; As described already. 
  2. Hardish mode; someone has moved your cryopod out of the safe zone to the other side of the planet. Dig and hide. But the nanoformer works. 
  3. Hard mode; As per hardish mode but the nanoformer is on the fritz you take damage every time you use it but you can make a healing booster that fixes it if your close, you can pick stuff up by making a lever and cut stone with a hammer and wedge, Strip branches form trees with a pruning hook. Dig dirt with primitive pick-hoe. make a 3D printer and fix the nanoformer with a repair kit from it. 
  4. Extreme mode: defective cryopod, you emerge a zombie. You can walk, jump, turn, melee and make a nanoformer attack but nothing else works until you harvest a vital resource to fix your brain and nanoformer. And everyone is hunting you because you have a useful resources drop. How long can you last as a space zombie. 

[i keep writing about space zombies and awaiting someone saying "Noooooo no zombies!" But All I hear is a worrying silence. Scary. ]

 

Hard and Extreme mode would both be sweet griefer penalties.  

 

But how do you chose between different modes. will the easy mode players have advateages over hard players. But i like space zombie mode sounds cool.

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  1. Easy mode; As described already. 
  2. Hardish mode; someone has moved your cryopod out of the safe zone to the other side of the planet. Dig and hide. But the nanoformer works. 
  3. Hard mode; As per hardish mode but the nanoformer is on the fritz you take damage every time you use it but you can make a healing booster that fixes it if your close, you can pick stuff up by making a lever and cut stone with a hammer and wedge, Strip branches form trees with a pruning hook. Dig dirt with primitive pick-hoe. make a 3D printer and fix the nanoformer with a repair kit from it. 
  4. Extreme mode: defective cryopod, you emerge a zombie. You can walk, jump, turn, melee and make a nanoformer attack but nothing else works until you harvest a vital resource to fix your brain and nanoformer. And everyone is hunting you because you have a useful resources drop. How long can you last as a space zombie. 

[i keep writing about space zombies and awaiting someone saying "Noooooo no zombies!" But All I hear is a worrying silence. Scary. ]

 

Hard and Extreme mode would both be sweet griefer penalties.  

 

I actually really want that "vegetable" state. I could just imagine a bunch of kiddies who got extreme mode and just started mauling each other.

I need help.

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It occurs to me that just doing a remake of a minecraft mod pack at smaller voxel size would not be good enough. (love all three mods though) That's why I had levers, wedges, pick-hoe etc. I.e. even a minecraft veteran faces a little learning curve if some low technology is enabled.  It needs to new, temporary, low technology and only ever as a player choice competing with the nanoformers speed and power so you have genuine bragging rights. 

 

That is the challenge. The nanoformer uses power to mine and harvest. In building mode I would assume it needs no power. If its out of power you take damage. That's already been talked about. It a driver to technology development and a hint that a lower technology, power saver game mode, may be an option. But NQ probably would want to keep low technology to a minimum. It's extra work.   

I have an idea: I'm putting together models of some lower technology elements these are not meant to be usable but when you make a foundry from scratch the nanoformer first makes the low technology stuff then uses them to make the high technology Foundry which then replaces the low tech stuff instantly. One mesh with charcoal kiln, bloomery, and a pile of resources: stone, dirt, fuel and ore. It is only meant to be visible for a few seconds. It beats scaffolding.
At the moment I'm stuck for a good copper (Malachite) ore Texture. Most out there would look rubbish on a 25 cm voxel and a 4 m tunnel wall. Making the ores look convincing will be a challenge. I need to do a little research on texture tools in gimp and blender.  I'm not a dev so I don't know if they have someone on that problem yet. 

 

There is also the question, If you have a nanoformer why do you need a foundry or 3d printer? Some technobabble is needed. My best suggestion is that the nanoformer can move things but can't make phase changes; Smelting, melting, setting glues and plastic are all phase changes.  Hence the need for four base machines: foundry, 3D printer, assembler and the disposal unit {only in the art but that is clearly a grinder }. 

 

The next game design question, If you have all this high technology do you need all the ores? Copper Malachite, tin Cassiterite, Lead Galena, the three iron ores - Native Iron (asteroids), Hematite, and Magnetite? The precious ores make sense, gold, silver = electronics. Then you have rare earths. Rare earths are not found in ordinary dirt. Some ores like lithium are not even generally found underground much. They are dry mountain ores and salts.  How detailed and scientifically accurate do you want to be? 

 

The real hard mode is for the game designer. 

 

As for easy mode players having an advantage over hard mode players that is the point. 

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the point was not to copy that minecraft mod, but to use it as a template for the upgrade scheme, it would be nothing alike, except maybe those bare concepts.

 

your ideas tho a quite interesting, but it is not a medieval setting. we would have tech. I proposed a molecular crafting scheme that would fit a little better in my opinion, while keeping that degree of complexity, with the possibility of being simple at the start. I don't think the tools should be the limit as it makes no sense in this futuristic setting, since the nanoformer is a hi-tech multitool. The limit makes more sense in the component transport scheme, where you need special equipment to transport massive components and hazardous materials.

 

making ores look convincing will be easy: take the base rock texture and paste an ore vein decal on it with pseudo-random 3D patterns. Terrafirmacraft has an extensive ore system that could be used as a template.

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This is actually quite tricky to implement. If it's too hard and results in too much frustration, players quit. If it's too easy then once a player has done absolutely everything, they quit again. The trick is to lead the player along a learning curve, showing them the promise of the great rewards possible if they take the time and skill to slog through the basic stuff.

 

The best way to do that, according to behavioral specialists, is by first feeding them constant stimulus to get them used to the idea that there WILL be a reward, and then changing it to variable stimulus - providing the reward only occasionally at an unpredictable rate. That's how you get them 100% hooked. Of course if you're providing the reward less often you can increase the actual size of the reward and STILL have it average out as the same or a smaller reward/time to prevent erosion of the value of the reward. How do you think slot machines in casinos work? :)

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This is actually quite tricky to implement. If it's too hard and results in too much frustration, players quit. If it's too easy then once a player has done absolutely everything, they quit again. The trick is to lead the player along a learning curve, showing them the promise of the great rewards possible if they take the time and skill to slog through the basic stuff.

 

The best way to do that, according to behavioral specialists, is by first feeding them constant stimulus to get them used to the idea that there WILL be a reward, and then changing it to variable stimulus - providing the reward only occasionally at an unpredictable rate. That's how you get them 100% hooked. Of course if you're providing the reward less often you can increase the actual size of the reward and STILL have it average out as the same or a smaller reward/time to prevent erosion of the value of the reward. How do you think slot machines in casinos work? :)

 

there is another aspect you forgot to mention: difficulty that you cannot counteract becomes frustrating way faster than difficulty you can work around.

aditionally, this:

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But how do you chose between different modes. will the easy mode players have advateages over hard players. But i like space zombie mode sounds cool.

A choice at the game start screen would work. However JC is looking to create a game where people are forced to work together and and hard mode setting or difference in start mode would work against that. My suggestions are all about people coming late to the game.

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I think it's a great idea, regarding to a lot of games on early access you can do everything with a certain efficient. The only limit is the skill branch (But it's not really a limit when after 2h yours kills are max upgraded) and the material and after 20/30h of playing you can do everything with a super efficient. In this case the only reasons to group is to gain some time to construct or to defend yourself from other players. 

It can be good to change that with -super- skill who need a lot of time to be learned (Maybe passive after xxh of mining). Or maybe it can be physics limits (It's pretty hard to be a miner after some years of scientific work for an organisation). 

But i don't think a difficulty mod will work, we all have to face the same problems of this world, the same difficulty to construct a building or a ship. 

After all players can help to maintain a balance, the best miners can keep their secrets safe and share it only with some apprentices. So they can keep their utility.

(Sorry for my english guys ! )

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I think the key here is the skill training system that is being used, which is copied almost exactly from EVE Online. The skills will take real time to train, so no matter how much you grind or play you will still train skills at the same rate. Each skill is divided into 5 levels, with each level providing an equal benefit. Each level takes much longer to train than the previous one, in such a fashion that in order to get 80% of the benefit (level 4) only takes 20% of the time. Individual professions rely on many skills and skills may or may not overlap between professions. The result is that players must chose how to spend their time. They can either spend their time in one area and get very good at it or spread the time out and be ok at a lot of things. The idea is also that the total training time for max skills is kept well above the total age of the game, making it impossible for anyone to ever be "master of everything".

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There have been some topics around this area, particularly with building ships, but I feel that the this is a concept valid for the entire game. In a huge civilization-building, player-interactions-driven game, I feel that having people skilled in just certain areas will eventually lead to a more enjoyable experience for players. And this is something that many people may disagree with upon first hearing it, but find in the long run that they think it works really well. Or maybe they'll hate it! I want to share my opinion on it though, and I ask that those reading, who may think it's stupid, give it a chance. Also remember that there are two sides to this, neither are correct, and both are valid. It's just opinion based.

 

If anyone is familiar with the game series LittleBigPlanet, the first and second iterations for the PS3 played a huge role in a season of my life. They were the main games I played for months, and I had a friend who was into it as I was. Anyway if you don't know the game, it's not important. Basically, you use some basic tools to make little minigame-ish things (I'll refer to them as levels).

 

Anyway, in the first game, there were a few levels and creators that stood out significantly from all the rest, because they were fantastic (anyone that knows the name "Lockstitch" off the top of their head is a freaking awesome person). Me and my friend, we knew exactly what tools were available, and what you could and "couldn't" do. But some few levels stood out to us because, as people who knew the game inside and out, we had no clue how they some of these things were accomplished. A fair few levels were outstanding and amazing due to their mechanics and visuals.

 

When LittleBigPlanet 2 arrived, there were tons and tons of new tools added. These were fun and great to be sure, but they made everything that made the old levels special, not special. Because, all of the fantastic things that had been done before (in the first game) were now basic and easy because there were tools to do them (in the second game). This made a lot of great content a lot more common. Which of course was a good thing. And there were certainly levels that still pushed the boundaries. But overall, by making cool and unique things easy, it made great content a lot more common and thereby a lot less special.

 

If Dual Universe makes building easy, and mining easy, and combat easy, and exploration easy... Well, then there are going to be lots of amazing ships, and lots of miners, and lots of warriors and lots of explorers. You may say, "that sounds great!" But, remember my exceedingly dramatic and emotional story. When you make it easy, it stops being special.

 

In a game like Dual Universe, where player interactions and jobs and organizations are such a key factor, it shouldn't be easy to do anything. It shouldn't be easy to switch from a being an efficient miner working for a large corporation to a stupendous explorer finding rare resources on hostile worlds at the edge of the known galaxy. Sure, you can switch job titles and do whatever you want whenever you want, because it's a game! I'm just saying you shouldn't be able to switch from being outstanding at one thing, to suddenly outstanding at another. This allows individuals the opportunity to stand out, and be known for something. "Hey he's that guy that makes that line of super efficient yet powerful ships. I don't know how he comes up with that stuff." "What, you want to send Xx_M8_SLAYR_xX to go hunting for that anomaly? He's an architect, someone else will find it way sooner!" If someone wants to be known for something, then they go for that something and only that and they end up being great at it, and known for it. Lots of people will choose to not do this, which allows the few that do to stand out.

 

I can't really say much else that I haven't said already. I believe I've gotten my point across. Regarding designing ships or stations, it's easier to see how an individual could be better at it than most others. Mining or exploration expertise could be accomplished, not just by having better equipment or skills, but also by there being hidden techniques that people just have to learn by doing it. Thank you for reading and please try and be civil in your response, as, once again, both opinions are valid!

 

 

When everyone's special, no one is...

And if you're good at something, never do it for free!

 

I agree with the really cool things being hard to archieve but i certainly dont want it archieved by limiting the tools available to players.

 

The hard thing should be finding out /how/ to do it, not executing it.

 

If building is hard to execute its just frustrating.

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I love me some Dark Souls.

 

But when players are spending a great deal of time building, it has GOT to be less punishing than Space Engineers, and based on what we know so far of this game (can't lose build data, can't lose blueprints, can build off of market models), we should be in the clear.

 

Anybody here try playing in a Space Engineers multiplayer server lately? One badly damaged component or setting up a little to slowly, and your base gets deleted by the cleanup script. Crash your ship into your assembler? Can't build the parts to fix or repair it anymore, and can't build any more. Briefly lose connection with the server? Your ship is now drifting max speed i the same direction without you and you spawn at your base.

 

Space engineers is extremely punishing, so far though DU looks like it has the capacity to be a little punishing but not so bad. Lose your ship in DU? You can throw it back together right away if you still have the materials. Lose your base? Well that one woulf probably be pretty devistating, so lets hope it isn't so easy to greif

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There have been some topics around this area, particularly with building ships, but I feel that the this is a concept valid for the entire game. In a huge civilization-building, player-interactions-driven game, I feel that having people skilled in just certain areas will eventually lead to a more enjoyable experience for players. And this is something that many people may disagree with upon first hearing it, but find in the long run that they think it works really well. Or maybe they'll hate it! I want to share my opinion on it though, and I ask that those reading, who may think it's stupid, give it a chance. Also remember that there are two sides to this, neither are correct, and both are valid. It's just opinion based.

 

If anyone is familiar with the game series LittleBigPlanet, the first and second iterations for the PS3 played a huge role in a season of my life. They were the main games I played for months, and I had a friend who was into it as I was. Anyway if you don't know the game, it's not important. Basically, you use some basic tools to make little minigame-ish things (I'll refer to them as levels).

 

Anyway, in the first game, there were a few levels and creators that stood out significantly from all the rest, because they were fantastic (anyone that knows the name "Lockstitch" off the top of their head is a freaking awesome person). Me and my friend, we knew exactly what tools were available, and what you could and "couldn't" do. But some few levels stood out to us because, as people who knew the game inside and out, we had no clue how they some of these things were accomplished. A fair few levels were outstanding and amazing due to their mechanics and visuals.

 

When LittleBigPlanet 2 arrived, there were tons and tons of new tools added. These were fun and great to be sure, but they made everything that made the old levels special, not special. Because, all of the fantastic things that had been done before (in the first game) were now basic and easy because there were tools to do them (in the second game). This made a lot of great content a lot more common. Which of course was a good thing. And there were certainly levels that still pushed the boundaries. But overall, by making cool and unique things easy, it made great content a lot more common and thereby a lot less special.

 

If Dual Universe makes building easy, and mining easy, and combat easy, and exploration easy... Well, then there are going to be lots of amazing ships, and lots of miners, and lots of warriors and lots of explorers. You may say, "that sounds great!" But, remember my exceedingly dramatic and emotional story. When you make it easy, it stops being special.

 

In a game like Dual Universe, where player interactions and jobs and organizations are such a key factor, it shouldn't be easy to do anything. It shouldn't be easy to switch from a being an efficient miner working for a large corporation to a stupendous explorer finding rare resources on hostile worlds at the edge of the known galaxy. Sure, you can switch job titles and do whatever you want whenever you want, because it's a game! I'm just saying you shouldn't be able to switch from being outstanding at one thing, to suddenly outstanding at another. This allows individuals the opportunity to stand out, and be known for something. "Hey he's that guy that makes that line of super efficient yet powerful ships. I don't know how he comes up with that stuff." "What, you want to send Xx_M8_SLAYR_xX to go hunting for that anomaly? He's an architect, someone else will find it way sooner!" If someone wants to be known for something, then they go for that something and only that and they end up being great at it, and known for it. Lots of people will choose to not do this, which allows the few that do to stand out.

 

I can't really say much else that I haven't said already. I believe I've gotten my point across. Regarding designing ships or stations, it's easier to see how an individual could be better at it than most others. Mining or exploration expertise could be accomplished, not just by having better equipment or skills, but also by there being hidden techniques that people just have to learn by doing it. Thank you for reading and please try and be civil in your response, as, once again, both opinions are valid!

 

 

When everyone's special, no one is...

And if you're good at something, never do it for free!

 

I agree entirely, nicely put. Although I do think that the tools introduced in LBP2 allowed a greater deal of freedom in creation which then ultimately lead to bigger and better creations than were at all possible even though exploits in LBP1. Sure it made those things less special, but sometimes we want things to be more common. Clean water for example :) 

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