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Circles

I would not want any human or alien AI in this game.

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Maybe animals, maybe space beasts or big mythical worldly beasts. But AI as humans, or as ships or alien ships would really detract from the fact it's a single shard mmo that is ran by the players. I don't want to be running around seeing ships and people and being like "is that a person or an AI?" I always want to be like, oh... enemy ship approaching it's definitely a real person. Oh there's a guy walking alone in the desert, it's a real person! Not some random side quest npc or something dumb.

Sorry to anyone who likes the idea of NPC's but they could only detract from this games ideas of single shard mmo.

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Sames, that's one thing I didn't like about Elite Dangerous, AI that tried to act like human players. Good for single player game but me no like for multiplayer/mmo.

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2 hours ago, Archaics said:

Disagree completely. Having no AI, takes a lot of SCIFI opportunity out of a SCIFI game.. Imho

Well let's look at our options and try to pull it all together.

 

In many MMORPG Themepark games, there's a MANDATORY requirement for AI Programming of NPCs which constitute the MAJOR content and gameplay features which usually are:-

 

* Content = Quests via  a fake world of NPCs that perform life-like routines via AI

* Features = Combat via PCs in groups against NPCs in groups and or solo again via more complicated AI

 

In DU which we won't declare what sort of game it is but investigate IT'S features and content first then that will define via inside-out:

 

* DU Content = Voxel Sandbox editing gameplay. Do we need AI? No, the dynamic interaction is purely Environmental there's no fake life to this.

* DU Features = Construct Interactions: Need Parameter values in the LUA scripts for constructs eg spaceship or passcode door and UI features too HTML/LUA iirc.

* DU Features = Combat Interactions: Need other players so again no fake life for this, other players perform better anyway (In fact a lot of Open World PvP MMOs design for this very reason).

 

So being specific there's zero need for the normal use of "AI" in MMOs. But what about DU's case outside of this? So the "opportunity" is different for DU: Is it needed?

 

No. It's outside the scope for the release of the game which has enough locked in features already that cost time and money and are complicated enough.

 

Is there "opportunity" for "nice to have" reasons? Yes, I think so.

 

1. Players are given Pet Robots if they pledge. I would hope we can tinker and hack apart their scripts in LUA to change their AI behaviour? I'd like "Pet Club" ie fight club for pets or race club around a maze or similar games players could put their pets to and experiment with?

2. At release some sort of marketing gimmick could be a glimpse of a "far off solar system" that has a robotic AI civilization. The devs never have to even release it but could just reveal it as "look what is possible for players to either make or discover"! It would be interesting if the devs can programme Ant-like behaviour in the robot race and see how well they set up colonies and expand and even fight each other like robot ants in wars... do-able.

 

Like I said though, these are edge-cases of nice-to-have and far from essential. But as you say, Sci-Fi + AI + Opportunity might go together.

 

 

 

 

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Short answer : yes but mostly cosmetical

 

Longer answer : 

  • when in a city, there should be some life. I fear that if there are only players, the game may feel rather empty. Somebody wants to roleplay the mom with her children in the streets ?
  • AI monsters on planets seems right : once landed on a new discovered planet, why should the only danger come from space ? The spawn frequency and dangerousity can depend on planet population, the wilder the worse for explorers. A moon with no atmosphere can't have any life (as we know it) so it should be more secure than a nice planet with marvelous trees, lakes and eyes lurking.
  • as players, we will look for the big things (conquering the universe as a basic start...).  But what about low level employement? Human players can be hired to manage a docking bay for example (unload cargo, check the fuel, sort the containers). But will there be enough players for all the small tasks ? These AI could become our automation tools for low level tasks, with rather expensive salaries. Maybe cyborgs we can buy; they rust over time so they need repair/replacement = new economy perspective.
  • I want to create a clone army! Players have their own feelings, I want cyborgs that don't complain even if they are dumb. To send them as decoys maybe. I fear hiring people for this will quickly become too expensive and you can forget about having a "secret clone factory". Those cyborgs use materials to be built, so scavenging the fallen ones should be possible without impacting the economy.
  • AI in game is always "dumb". No mather how well it has been coded, it never really learns and after some time a player can find tacticts to fight them easily. If the AI becomes a farming method then no. No auto spawn of pirate/police vessels as this could alter many aspects : economy when looting them as they got their materials from nowhere; if a corp manages to secure a zone and watches the borders, how can the game make sure it doesn't spawn somehting where it should be really hard to get withtout the proper clearence ?

Adding stuff is often nice but balanced gameplay is more important. Let's avoid overloading the game with non critical aspects for the moment.

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NQ has said several times that there wont be any AI besides market bots and maybe some creatures later on.

 

If you want an army then build an org.

 

This isnt computer AI vs computer AI, its player vs player, org vs org, nation vs nation.

 

Or even everyone pulling to survive....

 

No AI   :)

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Atlas has a very interesting NPC mechanic where a player can purchase NPCs to do various jobs on a pirate ship. I wouldn't mind something like this in DU. These types of NPCs can be used for (as was stated earlier) low level jobs and tasks. Maybe design them in such a way that they look different from PCs. Maybe a robot with a specific look or color?

 

Planets should have some indigenous creatures. Not every planet, obviously, but there needs to be more immersion with planets. Make creatures rare. Make them valuable when found. Make them instill fear into our hearts when we come upon that rare planet teeming with life.

 

PvP is great and all, but trust me, there will be many players screaming at lack of PvE content. This could be an easy way to implement PvE for players who just want to base build and fend off the occasional herd of creatures or solitary predator. 

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8 hours ago, Tan Mojo said:

Atlas has a very interesting NPC mechanic where a player can purchase NPCs to do various jobs on a pirate ship. I wouldn't mind something like this in DU. These types of NPCs can be used for (as was stated earlier) low level jobs and tasks. Maybe design them in such a way that they look different from PCs. Maybe a robot with a specific look or color?

 

Planets should have some indigenous creatures. Not every planet, obviously, but there needs to be more immersion with planets. Make creatures rare. Make them valuable when found. Make them instill fear into our hearts when we come upon that rare planet teeming with life.

 

PvP is great and all, but trust me, there will be many players screaming at lack of PvE content. This could be an easy way to implement PvE for players who just want to base build and fend off the occasional herd of creatures or solitary predator. 

This is where the conversation gets really interest, because in an mmo there is utility to allowing an npc to take your place when you're offline such as a market bott selling for you.

However, it should be exactly that, the market ai are, bots, they are simply market bots that link to the global or galactic market in a way only NQ can keep track of. 
But everything else can be lua scripted, local sales of items, ship command, repair services, everything except mining can be made with LUA to do a job in sequence.

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For a long time I went with the notion that only players are fine. I do not recall everything, but that was the gist.

 

Yet, now, I think it might be an issue, potentially, for many.

 

If the game is sold as that, OK. But even so, that doesn't mean some couldn't not like the fact. Just like Fallout 76 did advertise it prior I think and in the end many disliked the empty-ish world. Do not get me wrong, you had NPC and AI in the game, just not any humanoid NPCs. But you had enemy and neutral AI.

 

I feel or fear it might perhaps later feel empty-ish or not as entertaining compared to having a few creatures or animals. All other sandbox games from Eve to Minecraft, Conan Exiles, etc had some sort of NPC set or array. To spice things up.

 

I currently believe that only a large player base could compensate for this.

 

Recap, not minding limited time, resources or prioritization: with some NPCs you'd likely please more (potential) players compared to not having either. I also don't mean to imply "drop every thing and work on NPCs like creatures".

 

Simply consider that various, even if rarer, NPCs can spice things up. Perhaps way later this topic can be revisited or considered by the devs when critical parts of the game are done.

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I feel as though a good way to implement NPCs--in regard to ones that try to emulate players--is for them to simply be passive ships; no pirating, policing, or mercenary NPCs. NPCs could be more of an aesthetic filler, spawning idly and moving from point to point, perhaps having some defensive capabilities but never to go on the offensive.

 

I suppose the issue that could arise from this is if you destroy one, would you be allowed to extract resources from them in the form of pirating cargo or salvaging hulls. This could make for semi-interesting gameplay, but could also just become a way people farm for quick resources instead of fighting other players for them or gathering them independently.

 

I feel in the end it comes to how many players are able to be in one shard/server, and how often they're online. If there's an abundance of players constantly having the opportunity to bump into each other, then I see no reason to have ship or character NPCs; but if it takes a good hour before you might have even the opportunity to intentionally find another player, then I think it'd be good to implement some filler here and there to make the world seem less lonely.

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1 hour ago, Iskiox said:

but if it takes a good hour before you might have even the opportunity to intentionally find another player, then I think it'd be good to implement some filler here and there to make the world seem less lonely.

It is a space game though, and space is mostly empty. And the emptiness makes it feel larger. You still have the choice to go where the people are or travel with a group.

 

When Eve first came out I thought it would be pretty empty of players because there were so many systems. But even with a fraction of the player base they have now, players were just about everywhere. DU will be a bit different though because there won't be as many bottleneck points where players come together, but there will still be stargates and market hubs/cities.

 

Games like Elite Dangerous feel empty outside of the bubble because the millions of systems already exist in the game and you can travel to them, in DU it will just start with 1 system.

 

Games like NMS have NPC everywhere, but still feels lonely because it's all the same. I never felt like I was "far away" from anything.

 

If player-like NPC are put in DU I'd hope there would still be a way to find emptiness instead of seeing them everywhere. I'd prefer to only see NPC fauna on habitable planets, some maybe dangerous and most not very dangerous. Some optional pve gameplay could be created with them also.

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2 hours ago, Iskiox said:

I feel in the end it comes to how many players are able to be in one shard/server, and how often they're online. If there's an abundance of players constantly having the opportunity to bump into each other, then I see no reason to have ship or character NPCs; but if it takes a good hour before you might have even the opportunity to intentionally find another player, then I think it'd be good to implement some filler here and there to make the world seem less lonely.

Everyone will be in the same "shard/server".  Literally every single player.  And that's why not having NPCs works - because there should be plenty of players to make it feel lively.

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23 hours ago, Warden said:

For a long time I went with the notion that only players are fine. I do not recall everything, but that was the gist.

 

Yet, now, I think it might be an issue, potentially, for many.

 

If the game is sold as that, OK. But even so, that doesn't mean some couldn't not like the fact. Just like Fallout 76 did advertise it prior I think and in the end many disliked the empty-ish world. Do not get me wrong, you had NPC and AI in the game, just not any humanoid NPCs. But you had enemy and neutral AI.

 

I feel or fear it might perhaps later feel empty-ish or not as entertaining compared to having a few creatures or animals. All other sandbox games from Eve to Minecraft, Conan Exiles, etc had some sort of NPC set or array. To spice things up.

 

I currently believe that only a large player base could compensate for this.

 

Recap, not minding limited time, resources or prioritization: with some NPCs you'd likely please more (potential) players compared to not having either. I also don't mean to imply "drop every thing and work on NPCs like creatures".

 

Simply consider that various, even if rarer, NPCs can spice things up. Perhaps way later this topic can be revisited or considered by the devs when critical parts of the game are done.

Sorry to give a simple answer, but I think that space is meant to feel empty, untouched lands, new horizons. No bots that have gotten there first. 

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1 hour ago, Circles said:

Sorry to give a simple answer, but I think that space is meant to feel empty, untouched lands, new horizons. No bots that have gotten there first. 

And fauna? I mean I'm just trying to imagine Conan Exiles, Minecraft etc. with no "critters" and similar at all.

 

You could argue that it's not fully comparable because obviously, those worlds usually

 

1) rely on classic servers with limited player slots and

2) also intend to offer some sort of possible singleplayer or offline experience (not all, but many)

 

So those might "need" it. While Dual Universe will aim for huge player numbers. I'd say "Yes, perhaps correct".

 

I still think having environmental or local hazards such as fauna may be more interesting in the DU setting than not having that at all. I realize it's more work to design the creatures or whatever it may be, and then work to implement AI. But assuming it's not terribly impossible or hard in the given framework and assuming it is later possible because resources are freed up, it should be considered by the devs.

 

I'm not talking about humanoid NPCs now, but creatures that may have developed on some worlds that would logically allow it. I wouldn't mind some humanoid NPCs either to simulate some of the background factions in DU or people from other Ark ships, though.

 

TL;DR: I understand, it is no secret that the focus for DU appears to be on players, less so much on NPCs or even a potential "PVE" NPCs would bring. Then again, I would welcome certain critters and whatnot to spice things up on some planets. Having those doesn't hurt PVPers or anyone who doesn't mind an absence of NPCs or creatures. I'd say at the bottom line and on an abstract level, more people benefit or enjoy such potential adversaries than not having them.

 

The only practical obstacle I see is the effort and time required to implement those things in the game, next to a potential "vision". I'd assume that eventually a point would come where core mechanics are in and where the devs can focus on other aspects, such as more content for players. And maybe even PVE content. You can leave out more complex adversaries like other humans (as NPCs). But creatures or other life forms might be nice.

 

 

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I prefer to have fauna creature to do some PvE (Farm/Hunt/Amuse) to gather resource and other thing to do. But well NPC AI as human bot with ship and weapon ,... i dont think it good with the aim of DU is a sandbox, empty world waiting for player to explore and shape it.

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On 1/26/2019 at 2:31 AM, Warden said:

And fauna? I mean I'm just trying to imagine Conan Exiles, Minecraft etc. with no "critters" and similar at all.

 

You could argue that it's not fully comparable because obviously, those worlds usually

 

1) rely on classic servers with limited player slots and

2) also intend to offer some sort of possible singleplayer or offline experience (not all, but many)

 

So those might "need" it. While Dual Universe will aim for huge player numbers. I'd say "Yes, perhaps correct".

 

I still think having environmental or local hazards such as fauna may be more interesting in the DU setting than not having that at all. I realize it's more work to design the creatures or whatever it may be, and then work to implement AI. But assuming it's not terribly impossible or hard in the given framework and assuming it is later possible because resources are freed up, it should be considered by the devs.

 

I'm not talking about humanoid NPCs now, but creatures that may have developed on some worlds that would logically allow it. I wouldn't mind some humanoid NPCs either to simulate some of the background factions in DU or people from other Ark ships, though.

 

TL;DR: I understand, it is no secret that the focus for DU appears to be on players, less so much on NPCs or even a potential "PVE" NPCs would bring. Then again, I would welcome certain critters and whatnot to spice things up on some planets. Having those doesn't hurt PVPers or anyone who doesn't mind an absence of NPCs or creatures. I'd say at the bottom line and on an abstract level, more people benefit or enjoy such potential adversaries than not having them.

 

The only practical obstacle I see is the effort and time required to implement those things in the game, next to a potential "vision". I'd assume that eventually a point would come where core mechanics are in and where the devs can focus on other aspects, such as more content for players. And maybe even PVE content. You can leave out more complex adversaries like other humans (as NPCs). But creatures or other life forms might be nice.

 

 

Yeah but, Fauna wandering into towns? They have to despawn permanently when they die. I like the idea of animal critters, but they will wander into our builds and ruin our nice stuff.

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On 1/29/2019 at 1:03 AM, Circles said:

Yeah but, Fauna wandering into towns? They have to despawn permanently when they die. I like the idea of animal critters, but they will wander into our builds and ruin our nice stuff.

Just like in MC you can add triggers that let them despawn (or not spawn) if certain objects are in the area. In MC it was light. No issue if you do it right.

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9 hours ago, Warden said:

Just like in MC you can add triggers that let them despawn (or not spawn) if certain objects are in the area. In MC it was light. No issue if you do it right.

Tell that to the pigs, cow, and sheep in minecraft. Do they despawn?

You're right though, but I prefer a massive turret that absolutely obliterates varmints.

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If we have proximity sensors, collision detection, and engines which are linked then we will have AI programming for constructs. So in order to avoid battle fleets of robotic ships the game needs to limit such free construct programming to claimed territories.

 

Simple AI is not difficult to implement. Fortunately, LUA code line limits will prevent any really intelligent AI.

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The fact that there will not be NPC is one of the core orientation of the game : they want that everything that happen in the game will be based on humain decisions. I'm sure some people will be unsettle by the sand box mechanisms, but then again, as a player, you could see that as a buisness opportunity to propose quests to those players.

So no "sentient" NPC is a viable decision as long as players are numerous enough, and have some nice ideas.

 

But for "no-sentient" NPC like animals, it would be a nice gameplay element : hunting, taming, breeding... And if wildlife is dangerous, it may force people to regroup and create "protected area" that would be lively.

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indeed, i think there should be no respawn mechanism for animals. Maybe a system where you can get a specimen, or "egg" from the Arc ship and from that can grow them, or even repopulate a planet with them, but no respawning other than natural growth. But incorporating natural growth into a system like DU will be pretty nifty. That would really be some great thing.

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Something like this topic of @Eternal ?

It's look like a lot of players are interested by animals.

Hope NQ propose something for this later.

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On 1/25/2019 at 12:38 PM, SGCam said:

Everyone will be in the same "shard/server".  Literally every single player.  And that's why not having NPCs works - because there should be plenty of players to make it feel lively.

I'm a new player, but I've seen some impressive plans others have posted (forums, discord) on constructs they will build (imagine Jabba the Hutt's palace).  I can see players visiting/exploring these constructs, but in practice they will be lifeless most of the time (like the districts during the last test). Having NPCs occuping these constructs will present to the visitor a richer feel, and if they are player programmed they will provide another avenue for creativity.

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