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The Subscription System

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20 minutes ago, Gerald_Deemer said:

What is the monthly fee for? Just for saving the players progress?

 

 

Don´t get me wrong, I´m willing to pay a monthly fee but I would like to know what for as the community is generating all the content.

 

 

Servers cost money. 

Developing new content costs money. 

Paying people a decent wage to maintain and operate a mmorpg costs money. 

Saving a character state is just a small part of the overall picture. 

 

NQ has said on multiple occasions that the expansions will be free. So I don't get why you seem to think player generated content means that after the initial development NQ's job is done. Even if no new content is developed operating and maintaining servers cost money. 

 

I could write an endless post about why p2p is a more honest business model, why it's cheaper for the player who is invested and why "f2p" was invented and packaged as being "for the player" but I'm not sure if that would advance the discussion. 

 

I do think I answered your question. 

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Besides, staff has to be paid and the expenses for trade fairs, conventions, etc.

 

Keeping a would will probably, likely, turn into a notable game with a certain "coverage" will cost some buck.

 

E: What Falstaf just said.

 

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@Warden and Merwyn:

Well I think they all got paid already or would you work for years without payment?

Renting a high end server costs 14,95$ per month. Can´t be that expensive.

 

Wow! So all FTP MMOs are made by volunteers?  (sarcasm)

 

I see your point. They all need to be paid for creating no further content. Just traveling around the world and presenting the game. Cool. ( this was a joke)

 

Seriously:

I think the costs will be refinanced within the first 6 months after launch. Let´s say 1 year after lauch. And then? Either NQ will boot half of it´s staff (which is not unusual in the gaming industry) or they need thier programmers to create content. But nobody can say what "content" really is in Dual Universe. At that point a monthly fee is no longer bearable and they have to go FTP (with lootboxes or shops)

 

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5 hours ago, Falstaf said:

 

Servers cost money. 

Developing new content costs money. 

Paying people a decent wage to maintain and operate a mmorpg costs money. 

Saving a character state is just a small part of the overall picture. 

 

NQ has said on multiple occasions that the expansions will be free. So I don't get why you seem to think player generated content means that after the initial development NQ's job is done. Even if no new content is developed operating and maintaining servers cost money. 

 

I could write an endless post about why p2p is a more honest business model, why it's cheaper for the player who is invested and why "f2p" was invented and packaged as being "for the player" but I'm not sure if that would advance the discussion. 

 

I do think I answered your question. 

What content? That´s the question. There is just a giant sandbox with millions of players in it. There will be no "new content"

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10 minutes ago, Gerald_Deemer said:

What content? That´s the question. There is just a giant sandbox with millions of players in it. There will be no "new content"

Excuse me? 

 

So the tools, models, music, art etc just come out of thin air? 

 

The systems count as content. 

Expansions are content. 

 

:mellow:

 

Edit: Expansions will introduce new elements and new ways to interact with the world. It needs to be created, it counts as content. 

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A MMO game and no update forever ... what a nightmare.

How can you live with a online game which keep like that for the whole life of the game.

New content, new fix bug, new optimize, new function,... very much a lot of thing they want to add in game, but now they dont have time, only priority now is which they have promised in kickstart. Then after launch they will get new expansion for the game.

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2 hours ago, Gerald_Deemer said:

What content? That´s the question. There is just a giant sandbox with millions of players in it. There will be no "new content"

In addition to what others said, there's never really an "end". Maybe an "end" is set, but there can always be more unique content and objects, furniture, interaction possibilities, etc. And if someone has to work on it, payment has to be guaranteed each month.

 

We also do not know additional investments NQ might make later on, or if they branch out and want to create other games in the long run.

 

It might sound "ignorant" but I think NQ did some math at least (and constantly does it) and roughly knows with what model they can survive or keep operating in the long run, and I trust that (since I can also pay or obtain the game time by paying hard cash or utilizing DAC) calculation over the needs of users who'd prefer free access.

 

Of course, from an egoistic consumer POV, I also would not mind being able to play for free endlessly as the 10 to 15 bucks can always be utilized elsewhere. But that may not guarantee a long run of the game.

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On 3/10/2018 at 5:31 AM, Falstaf said:

I could write an endless post about why p2p is a more honest business model

 

Please do, I'm sure you'd get plenty of readers and more point of discussion on the topic for future reference is always a good thing!

On 3/10/2018 at 11:15 AM, Gerald_Deemer said:

Well I think they all got paid already or would you work for years without payment?

Renting a high end server costs 14,95$ per month. Can´t be that expensive.

People were paid, but that's not the point, you don't just drop 10k on someone's head and expect them to work with you for a few months. Sure they have investors, but they're building a game with, as my mom likes to put it, "newfangled technology I can't understand".

 

Game development is one thing, but actually maintaining the game and plucking the bugs as the popup is completely different.

 

As far as the server costs, please cite your source on that. Keep in mind that those servers must be able to accept a lot of bandwidth, crunch numbers really really good, be able to store a lot of data, be supplied with power, have proper heating, cooling, and airflow, insurance in case everything goes kaputz, physical storage for those very servers because we all know that isn't free...

 

Workspace for the employees, their equipment, heating, cooling and airflow for a productive work environment,  sprinkler systems and water in case their building catches on fire, building rent (again because it's so egregious...), decent parking space for employees to park their personal transportation, sewage, and garbage disposal costs, amenities so the employees are actually happy and a bunch bunch of other stuff...

 

Oh, on top of all this, everything has to be kept secure. The building they work in to keep the bad guys out in addition to DDoS and other internet related protection. 

 

My point is, there's a lot more to the expenses than just renting out a server for, by your estimate, 14.95. That's just the start too, someone else could easily cover the expenditures I forgot.

 

On 3/10/2018 at 11:15 AM, Gerald_Deemer said:

At that point a monthly fee is no longer bearable and they have to go FTP (with lootboxes or shops)

As much as I would love for this game to be a free-to-play game, the cost of a weekend Starbucks keeps a lot of... bad stuff out of the community. This particularly has been hashed and rehashed so I won't go over it.

On 3/10/2018 at 11:15 AM, Gerald_Deemer said:

lootboxes

No.

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@Gerald_Deemer

I would _really_ like to know where you rent an actual physical high end server for $15/mo .. that would be a very nice trick and I'll take a few..

 

I think you do not really know or understand what server cluster will be required fro DU to run as NQ envisions it. Let alone running a business, developing extensions and additional content/tools/elements/features. They need highly skilled designers for modeling, graphics, sound and these people do not come cheap. A considerable team will need to be available to maintain the server cluster 24/7 as well. 

 

There really is no argument against the subscription model if only for the fact you are being provided with an endless amount of hours of playtime when the monthly subscription cost comes in at well below $1/day.

 

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In defense of NQ, there is definitely "content" in terms of drag and drop components, i.e. thrusters,  generators, lights, etc, as well as plants, wildlife, and natural textures.  All of this will be improved as the game is developed, and I could see them putting out new designs of all these things over time.

 

Whether that justifies the subscription model is another question.  Many other AAA games offer endless updates of content, with high server loads, and yet they somehow manage a f2p model just fine.  Of course, they're technically freemium, and a subscription will get you more benefits, content, aesthetics, etc.  So I don't really get why the subscription model is an absolute *must have* for this game, but I will say it's a smart business move, for sure.

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8 hours ago, BlorgonSlayer said:

they somehow manage a f2p model just fine.  Of course, they're technically freemium, and a subscription will get you more benefits, content, aesthetics, etc.

 

 

because f2p, lootboxes, microtransactions and stuff like that are CANCER to the gaming industry. Just look at what happend to EA, Bungiee, Bioware and others with titles like call of duty, battlefront 2, anthem, god of war.... they make billions with such systems because people are stupid and buy that shit. Then SUPPORT it even further by buying stuff. And now people are so used to this ripoff and bad monetarization design that they complain about a sub.

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4 hours ago, Lethys said:

 

 

because f2p, lootboxes, microtransactions and stuff like that are CANCER to the gaming industry. Just look at what happend to EA, Bungiee, Bioware and others with titles like call of duty, battlefront 2, anthem, god of war.... they make billions with such systems because people are stupid and buy that shit. Then SUPPORT it even further by buying stuff. And now people are so used to this ripoff and bad monetarization design that they complain about a sub.

You point to all these games that have done f2p poorly, I could point to many games that have a sub system that are still garbage. Having one or the other doesn't make a game good or bad.

 

I do hear you and agree about the loot box issue.  That is a bane to the gaming industry, and I wish it would go away forever.  However, things like microtransactions, if done right, can be just fine.  I mean, DU already has a microtransaction system planned with the DACs.  Other games have done microtransactions well, like SWTOR for example, that has the cartel market.  These items are purely aesthetic, and don't affect gameplay at all.  I really don't see why this couldn't be a viable business model for DU.  The things that get unlocked for those who subscribe or those who buy credits to the premium market could be costume pieces, building textures, and other fancy looking, but purely aesthetic, items.  It would not affect gameplay in any way whatsoever, only allow you to build cooler looking things. 

 

I'm just saying, I guaruntee there is going to be a whole segment of the market that will not even play the game, because they don't want to (or simply can't) pay over $100 a year for a game.  Yes, there is DAC you can earn in game, but I'm skeptical of that working until I see it actually working. . At the very least, I think a trial period would be good, to let people understand what it is they are shelling money out for and so they can decide whether it's actually worth it for them to subscribe.  During the trial period, you could earn DAC if you want to continue, thus basically allowing the game to be f2p if you work hard enough at it.  

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16 minutes ago, BlorgonSlayer said:

You point to all these games that have done f2p poorly, I could point to many games that have a sub system that are still garbage. Having one or the other doesn't make a game good or bad.

 

I do hear you and agree about the loot box issue.  That is a bane to the gaming industry, and I wish it would go away forever.  However, things like microtransactions, if done right, can be just fine.  I mean, DU already has a microtransaction system planned with the DACs.  Other games have done microtransactions well, like SWTOR for example, that has the cartel market.  These items are purely aesthetic, and don't affect gameplay at all.  I really don't see why this couldn't be a viable business model for DU.  The things that get unlocked for those who subscribe or those who buy credits to the premium market could be costume pieces, building textures, and other fancy looking, but purely aesthetic, items.  It would not affect gameplay in any way whatsoever, only allow you to build cooler looking things. 

 

I'm just saying, I guaruntee there is going to be a whole segment of the market that will not even play the game, because they don't want to (or simply can't) pay over $100 a year for a game.  Yes, there is DAC you can earn in game, but I'm skeptical of that working until I see it actually working. . At the very least, I think a trial period would be good, to let people understand what it is they are shelling money out for and so they can decide whether it's actually worth it for them to subscribe.  During the trial period, you could earn DAC if you want to continue, thus basically allowing the game to be f2p if you work hard enough at it.  

There are plans on doing a purely cosmetic shop - and that's perfectly fine to me. Such things don't affect the game balance and have no impact on any players.

And no, DACs are no microtransactions because unlike in any game with microtransactions those DAC won't give you a constant and overall advantage (like buying a gun, armor or whatever). DAC ingame prices (quanta you get from another player) is defined by supply and demand (all ingame markets are run by players) so you simply can't buy 1000 DACs and sell them - prices would go down and you won't make 1000*50 000 quanta (just numbers, we don't know the prices ofc). It's not decided yet if DACs are lootable or not but if they are, then people will be very careful not to buy a lot of them and store them somewhere safe. That means that most DACs will be sold in safezones thus making the prices fall. Since people want the most for their money, they would have to travel to a "dangerous" market to make way more money with each DAC - but also risk of losing them. With this NQ could easily control the DAC market and make sure that such a system can't be abused to make millions or billions of quanta by dumping 10.000€ into DU.

 

Just look at eve online. PLEX are working fine there for years. I myself easily made 5 plex/month with little time invest. Due to the lack of PVE it'll be harder in DU, but still manageable (wouldn't make much sense if it's just impossible).

And ofc there will be a trial period (14 or 30 days, can't remember):

 

 

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@BlorgonSlayer I actually completely disagree on cosmetic items.  You mentioned SWTOR, and the change from subscription to f2p ruined that game for me and a lot of others as they turned their  focus from new game content to making cosmetic items.  Game developers will focus on the aspects of games that fund the business, and microtransactions tend to pull the developers away from content to focus on the items people buy.

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Even cosmetic micro transactions are a step too far from a traditionalist perspective. 

 

Just a fact that the cash shop cosmetics must have a visual edge or nobody would buy them. All of a sudden the coolest stuff is restricted to a cash shop. So even cosmetics remove content from the actual game. 

 

Unfortunately it's 2018 and we are way past that discussion. 

 

But fortunately for us what NQ has said on the subject is reasonable. 

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4 minutes ago, The_War_Doctor said:

There is already plans for a trial period ( i wanna say its 14 days but i may be wrong)

2 week to 4 week. Or i can say maybe a month.

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If there should be any type of subscription model it should be something new, redesigned for our modern times.  Pay for Time.  Like a prepaid phone or gift card.  If I only play 12 hours a month, I only pay for 12 hours a month.  If I play 300 hours in a month then I pay for 300 hours.   The hours would only count down WHILE LOGGED ON AND PLAYING.  No offline cost. It could even be on a scale with varying preset amount of hours.  You could put a cap on it too.  If a person reaches the top tear (say $15) then the rest of the month is unlocked.  So = pay per hour OR $15 a month.  This model benefits the casual player while also supporting the long term gamer.  

 

I get the server costs. I get that you must pay your employees.  Is there another way to bring in income then through taxing the players?  Maybe.... with some creativity.  I love the ideas of this game, I see this as a stepping stone to what games should/will be like in the future. 

 

Secondly,

However, NQ has designed a game mechanic, players then build and inhabit the game.   There are no quests, NPC, voices, NPC animations, dialogue, buildings, (exterior/interior) etc in this game!!!!!   Those things listed are the majority of the cost for any game.  That is why games cost 10s of millions of follars to make because all the cost is in designing the stuff that inhabits the game.  And DU has none of it.  Why?  Because the players design all of those things.  Essentially, the players are the ones who design and run this game.

 

I love this idea of giving players full reign of building the game.  I think this idea will help to reform the future of gaming.  I am glad that since NQ does not have to deal with all of the individual NPC design they can put more effort into the working mechanics.  But as fun as building is, you are charging us to develop that part of the game for you.  Which is really funny to think about.  My hope is that NQ will not become a dead game simply based on cost vs product.  They are building a giant box and then expecting people to pay money regularly to help build the rest of the game.  

 

Lastly, future content is not the biggest issue.  NQ will continue to better their game and upkeep the servers.  The problem is this....... both rl money and in-game DAC model for payment benefits people who have lots of time to play.  For those who do not have hours upon hours to throw into a game because of RL, the cost is problem.  Not because we don't want the game to make money, but because cost vs time.  I am not going to go to theme park for 30min and purchase an all day pass.  And I simply do not wish to pay the full monthly price and only put in 12 hours of game-play for the MONTH.  It is just not worth it.  So, maybe this game is ONLY for people who don't have jobs, or families, or any RL.  

 

If there should be any type of subscription model it should be something new, redesigned for our modern times.  Pay for Time.  Like a prepaid phone or gift card.  If I only play 12 hours a month, I only pay for 12 hours a month.  If I play 300 hours in a month then I pay for 300 hours.   The hours would only count down WHILE LOGGED ON AND PLAYING.  No offline cost. It could even be on a scale with varying preset amount of hours.  You could put a cap on it too.  If a person reaches the top tear (say $15) then the rest of the month is unlocked.  So = pay per hour OR $15 a month.  This model benefits the casual player while also supporting the long term gamer.  

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5 hours ago, Radaxys said:

However, NQ has designed a game mechanic, players then build and inhabit the game.   There are no quests, NPC, voices, NPC animations, dialogue, buildings, (exterior/interior) etc in this game!!!!!   Those things listed are the majority of the cost for any game.  That is why games cost 10s of millions of follars to make because all the cost is in designing the stuff that inhabits the game.  And DU has none of it.  Why?  Because the players design all of those things.  Essentially, the players are the ones who design and run this game.

 

I love this idea of giving players full reign of building the game.  I think this idea will help to reform the future of gaming.  I am glad that since NQ does not have to deal with all of the individual NPC design they can put more effort into the working mechanics.  But as fun as building is, you are charging us to develop that part of the game for you.  Which is really funny to think about.  My hope is that NQ will not become a dead game simply based on cost vs product.  They are building a giant box and then expecting people to pay money regularly to help build the rest of the game.  

If any of that made any sense then the game would already be done.  What do you think they are working on right now?  Almost everything in DU is built from scratch and has basically never been done before.  We should feel lucky (at least I do) to have a chance to buy a game that isn't just a bunch of art assets dumped into the same MMO model.

 

5 hours ago, Radaxys said:

Lastly, future content is not the biggest issue.  NQ will continue to better their game and upkeep the servers.  The problem is this....... both rl money and in-game DAC model for payment benefits people who have lots of time to play.  For those who do not have hours upon hours to throw into a game because of RL, the cost is problem.  Not because we don't want the game to make money, but because cost vs time.  I am not going to go to theme park for 30min and purchase an all day pass.  And I simply do not wish to pay the full monthly price and only put in 12 hours of game-play for the MONTH.  It is just not worth it.  So, maybe this game is ONLY for people who don't have jobs, or families, or any RL.  

 

This doesn't make any sense at all.

 

Someone who plays every single minute of the entire month and someone who only plays 12 hours a month are both paying the same amount.  Just because you feel like they are getting more out of their subscription then you are, doesn't mean that it's costing you more.

 

It feels like you're just sort of negotiating for a better deal.  I do understand the instinct.  I like to save money too.  But sometimes when you want the absolutely freaking most amazing thing on the face of the earth.  You just have to pay for it.

 

For many people the "worth" of something has nothing to do with perceived savings.  I'm not here for extreme couponing.  

 

They've got something that no one else has.  It's a "sellers market".

 

I hope you'll take the time to read some of what NQ has to say about why they are going with this particular subscription model.  It may not be the absolutely best possible option for your bank account.  But what if it's the best for the game?  

 

 

 

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