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Lethys

Neutral alts - Recording battles, Interviews, News, History,...

Neutral alts - to be or not to be  

36 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you allow neutral alts on your territory?

    • Yes
    • No, because.....(please post)
    • I don't care
  2. 2. Would you help a community project with a special PR department (discord channel, in-game meeting place,...)?

    • Yes
    • No, because....(please post)


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neutral player?  yes.  Or who belongs to a neutral faction?  yes.

 

Alt of a player with unknown allegiance?  No. 

 

 

In theme park MMOs I'm and alt-aholic.  I like making characters and playing them based on the personality I make up for them.  But in a game where we make the factions... and PvP and inter faction wars can have real painful consequences... Alts... as spys is a real threat.  Simply being present ... even without weapons or defenses can provide another faction with valuable information.  Like numbers and types of ships present... shipment times... and or what's being discussed on the local open channels...

 

Letting in a player from a neutral faction to trade is a calculated risk.  And you can bar them from going places you don't want them. ...

 

Some group made up of alts... who's players main characters may belong to warring factions?  No... they're not going to be let into areas that traders wouldn't have access to just because they have no weapons.

 

 

Basically my problem with the idea boils down to it being alts.  If such an org wanted to cover things and required its members to not have any other characters...  Throwing out those it finds violating that...  Such an org might be granted access.  Having them be alts though opens up too much risk of spying.

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I wasn't even aware each account may have up to 3 avatars. Where did you get this info from?

Ask Us Anything answees. You can try the Greystillplays interview as well, not 100% sure.

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No to the first question, yes for the second. I'm sure that what I've said has been said already but I'll say it anyways.

 

No, I wouldn't let a neutral party in to observe and record my doings, especially if they are meant to be private. If I wanted to tell everyone about something, I'd obviously get my higher-ups permission if it is appropriate.

 

Trust, especially in a neutral party is very difficult to maintain these days. Anyone that's followed american politics this past cycle knows that the media simply can not be trusted these days. Regardless of how objective and honest the media tries to be, we all take sides, we all have our subtle biases. If the historical society wants footage then they can ask organizations to provide it for them though it's quite likely that this will occur naturally, especially in bigger and more affluent organizations that have members with various skill sets in regards to video production and self-promoting news articles.

 

As for the second question, I'd love to help once I'm well established, but given what I said above I highly doubt my involvement will be needed.

 

: "Some of the worst things imaginable have been done with the best intentions." - Allan Grant, Jurassic Park 3

 

 

I like what you are proposing, but this isn't the best way to go about it.

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I still don't know why people talk about those alts getting access to some restricted/private area/base. That's not what this idea is about. Period.

 

@Fitorion: that's why I said there will be a public list of alts from duhs personnel with the main char linked. An alt is better in certain situations than the main, because naturally people will shoot other factions on sight.

I completely agree with alts/neutrals being a threat by just being there. But if you're at war, those "enemy" alts who spai, read chat and so on will be there anyway. Duhs alts would only be there to record the battle from one more viewpoint

 

@DarkHorizon: indeed it was already talked about :) as I said earlier, fair enough if you don't invite someone to your base. That's your choice. And ofc you can always use your new gamechanging construct as propaganda and publish it yourself (which mostly all orgs will do ofc). Duhs is just another immersive and rp type network to tell the second universe what you achieved

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It's not an all or nothing idea. Some people may like the idea of having people in their territory to document and report on things, and the DUHS will be one of the groups there to fill that role. If you build a brand new city and are proud of it, having reporters there and historians to mark the occasion is essentially free publicity. Obviously you wouldn't invite the reporters into the top secret research lab.

 

On the other side, some people may not want people in their territory. That is also okay, too. No one is going to be forcing themselves anywhere.

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I still don't know why people talk about those alts getting access to some restricted/private area/base. That's not what this idea is about. Period.

 

@Fitorion: that's why I said there will be a public list of alts from duhs personnel with the main char linked. An alt is better in certain situations than the main, because naturally people will shoot other factions on sight.

I completely agree with alts/neutrals being a threat by just being there. But if you're at war, those "enemy" alts who spai, read chat and so on will be there anyway. Duhs alts would only be there to record the battle from one more viewpoint

 

@DarkHorizon: indeed it was already talked about :) as I said earlier, fair enough if you don't invite someone to your base. That's your choice. And ofc you can always use your new gamechanging construct as propaganda and publish it yourself (which mostly all orgs will do ofc). Duhs is just another immersive and rp type network to tell the second universe what you achieved

 

Having another set of eyes watching and relaying ship positions or warning of a ship in hiding about to flank you provides real advantages even if they are not actively fighting in the battle.

 

Any org engaged in a battle should treat all ships not their own as enemy combatants and destroy them. 

 

In the real world Police ask News Crews not to broadcast live or report on their movements during active shooter or hostage situations.  Doing so could tip off the bad guy that Police were about to move in... and cost lives. 

 

In game there is no way to ensure that a "neutral observer" isn't relaying info to the enemy.  They could be screen sharing... or be in their teamspeak... or other viop program... So neutral observers should not be tolerated by any org during a battle.  Nice orgs might give you 1 warning command to leave before opening fire. 

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Any org engaged in a battle should treat all ships not their own as enemy combatants and destroy them.

 

In game there is no way to ensure that a "neutral observer" isn't relaying info to the enemy. They could be screen sharing... or be in their teamspeak... or other viop program... So neutral observers should not be tolerated by any org during a battle. Nice orgs might give you 1 warning command to leave before opening fire.

Ah now we're talking, thank you very much for this first, really thought out argument against a live stream.

 

That's why eve streamers always (ALWAYS) hide their location and their waypoints.

 

So, you're totally right there with the live stream argument: from that pov of the observer the enemy (whoever that might be) could get an advantage.

 

How to counter such things? And maybe you'd be fine with that then?

 

You could forbid livestreams, plain and simple. Or stream with a big delay - that would counter one point you made.

 

For the second point (splitting screen, relay info, being in ts,...) you'd first have to have the trust of the community and a certain reputation. If that ever will be enough....

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Given how easy it is to relay info... and how hard it is to track if someone did... and lack of much that could be done to a person that did.  It will be a long hard battle to gain a reputation and trust.  Any violations of trust... would have your org blacklisted forever no matter what actions you took against your member.

 

The desire to have an org that archives and reports on events in game is good.  But the idea that you'll have camera people there to observe is a hard thing.  You could request an org make their own recording and send the video to you after.  I just don't see neutral camera ships being allowed anywhere near a battle.

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Yes...but not necessarily a full-access granted. Depending on the case and the player identity.

 

Yes, just because community projects can make moving the lines and spread common knowledge.

 

 

I like this idea, it could feed some interesting organizations: newspaper, historical, NGO, scientific or medical...some touring org?

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My problem with the whole alt thing is: No one should be on the battlefield who isn't participating. Anyone who isn't participating ought to leave or they'll get shot. You want your alt to record the fight? How do I know they aren't scouting for the enemy? You tell me they're neutral, but no matter whether I trust them or not, if anything that isn't a known ally gets within range of my weapons, I'm destroying it. 

 

Imagine, if one team were to stage an ambush. Then, comes along a little recorder alt in their alt ship, streaming the whole thing. The alt bumps into the ambush. Turns out, the enemy team was watching the stream, and now the ambush is ruined. Of course, scouting is a perfectly fine tactic. I just don't want some alt claiming to do it for historical purposes leaking information, purposefully or not. Feel free to dislike me for shooting down your alt's ships, but they aren't getting anywhere near my fleet.

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I think people are mistaking journalists for people like...

 

Well, lets just say that if one was to draw analogies to the real world, one would posit that any given org should be more concerned about people who give information to journalists, not the journalists themselves.

 

A smart organisation will be as open and transparent as possible. Secrets always come out. Best you control when and how that happens. Or better yet, don't keep secrets. It didn't work for our society on Earth...

 

But you won't listen to me. You'll clam up against an idea like this, raise your organisational walls. Which will just make the journalists more curious. And sooner or later, you'll piss off an employee, or someone will make them a large offer, and who will then leak your secrets.

 

Twerk - he's got it worked out. Damn the idea to hell. Declare loudly he will execute spais, freedom of the press be damned. History and the journalists love that stuff. He's just guaranteed that the DUHS people will be writing the Legend of Captain Twerkmotor and his hunt for booty and freedom from the press. Unlike the rest of you nay-sayers who will be too closed and too boring to bother writing about.  <_<

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My problem with the whole alt thing is: No one should be on the battlefield who isn't participating. Anyone who isn't participating ought to leave or they'll get shot. You want your alt to record the fight? How do I know they aren't scouting for the enemy? You tell me they're neutral, but no matter whether I trust them or not, if anything that isn't a known ally gets within range of my weapons, I'm destroying it. 

 

Imagine, if one team were to stage an ambush. Then, comes along a little recorder alt in their alt ship, streaming the whole thing. The alt bumps into the ambush. Turns out, the enemy team was watching the stream, and now the ambush is ruined. Of course, scouting is a perfectly fine tactic. I just don't want some alt claiming to do it for historical purposes leaking information, purposefully or not. Feel free to dislike me for shooting down your alt's ships, but they aren't getting anywhere near my fleet.

 

(That made me think of Saddam watching CNN to get updates on American troop movements...)

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I voted idc for the territory part, mainly because i dont give two cents if they come but also no cents for their lives. If they show up without arrangement they might get shot. I i've let them say hello and they are found sneaking around beyond the area they've been allowed in they get shot.

 

As for the second part i votes yes because i like some RP stuff and interviews and the things akin. But it comes with restrictions. Depending on the event of course. If they are just showing up for a quick talk and then leave its k, if they show up to record a battle they get shot.

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The Blue Moon Crew are wanderers, so we do not intend to own any territory, but we would allow these neutral alts on our ship.  We consider recording the history of Dual Universe a valuable activity, so we would like to help the DUHS if we can.

 

While it is planned for these historians to have their own ships, there may be situations when they do not and need transportation.  If they do and we are going in the right direction, we would like to offer these historians free passage on the Blue Moon.

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1) No, because "neutral alt" is just a euphemism for Spy :) But seriously, I would accept individuals from trusted and verified organizations so long as they had a record of being unbiased (at least towards me lol), and were considered stand-up guys in the community. Otherwise, take a hike bro, assuming I don't just blow you up myself.

 

2) Of course I would help out community projects, because they're awesome and that's half the fun of having a community. But again, screw people who use those things as fronts for their own gain. 

 

 

In other news, the problem I see with your rules and regulations for these individuals is that you assume there'll be an easy way to tell what's fitted on a ship, or what's in someone's inventory, or what skills a character has trained. That may very well be the case, but I haven't seen any concrete examples of that yet, so I'm withholding judgement till then (yes, I know it's been *mentioned* by JC at one point, but that's not the same as a confirmed feature). 

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1) No, because "neutral alt" is just a euphemism for Spy :) But seriously, I would accept individuals from trusted and verified organizations so long as they had a record of being unbiased (at least towards me lol), and were considered stand-up guys in the community. Otherwise, take a hike bro, assuming I don't just blow you up myself.

 

2) Of course I would help out community projects, because they're awesome and that's half the fun of having a community. But again, screw people who use those things as fronts for their own gain. 

 

 

In other news, the problem I see with your rules and regulations for these individuals is that you assume there'll be an easy way to tell what's fitted on a ship, or what's in someone's inventory, or what skills a character has trained. That may very well be the case, but I haven't seen any concrete examples of that yet, so I'm withholding judgement till then (yes, I know it's been *mentioned* by JC at one point, but that's not the same as a confirmed feature). 

 

Don't get me wrong, I already came to some of your conclusions... but you said in another thread you played EVE... do you know of any big EVE alliance that flies fleets without doctrines? What? You know of anyone who brought a Myrmidon in a Legion fleet and got to fly that day - or even if they were not headshotted for gross incompetence?

 

Same thing will apply in DU. A faction has a list of tactics that formats its fleet into a doctrine. Why?  For many reasons, one being mineral wealth in your faction's planet. If you can afford to build a certain type of ships  you WILL buiuld those. 

 

For example.

 

"Laz0r-Party" = Pulser-laser based fleet, heavily armored to get into close quarters battles with other ships. They may move slow, but if they get near you, you are toast.

 

"Longshot" = Very (VERY) long range engagement railgun setup ships and very agile, able to bounce off in a dime and warp off to a safespot in the system.

 

After a battle the archivist is given the doctrine of the fleet, and compares footage on how the Laz0r-Party fleet got the drop on the OLLongshot boats with a good warp bubble on top of them. Or how the Longshot fleet's scouts fouind a good ping off of the Laz0r-Party Fellet, so the Longshot boats jumped in at THEIR maximum range and started pummeling the Laz0r-Party fleet.

 

So, no your arguement does not stand well there. It's the main point of having a guy in a faction being the archivist for the DUHS. I mean, spies will be a thing already, you can't stop it, might as well have a legit sharing of information - that concerns a particular battle, if you share your spies' names in other orgs with an archivist so they can share it with the DUHS, then you are an idiot, plain and simple.

 

I'd say have different archivists for the DUHS  being people SELECTED by a faction to represent them, so a cohesive story of a battle can woven

 

But no alts. The system proposed by Lethys can be achieved without alts. Make the DUHS a neutral ground, don't make "neutral alts".

 

 

 

In fact, let's be real here.

 

Have a faction able to cycle new archivists in the DUHS. No permanet archivists for Org-A and Org-B. It's a 3 month assignment. One org appoints one person as an archivist and then they get to appoint another one in there of their choosing. So the DUHS can't choose who to send, the organisations in question elect who's their archivist.

 

 

in fact, the organisation / alliance / coalition leader can choose to be the archivist for the DUHS. How about that? Does the DUHS want that?

 

 

It remains to be seen. I don't hold myself as smarter than anyone, but I guess the idea already crossed through people's minds. "Why have neutral alts, when you can have a person like a leader, be part of a neutral ground community project?".

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i dont know why guys like you want this to be eve so bad, just let s DU have its own gamestyle, or go and play EVE.

Just look the GDC video.

 

JC says they go for EVE's style of armor / shield resistances. So yeah, it will be like EVE, just way more of a rocket science when building a ship.

 

Better luck next time Lights. o7

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yeah it will be like eve, but you guys are trying to create it so its just eve with the ability to build stuff.

 

 

every, single, arguement is just people comparing it to eve, seriously theres other games out there.

 

Who said we want EVE 2.0? We want the metagame and theorycrafting of EVE, not EVE itself.

 

Unless what you are saying is "I want to play a dumb game that requires no thinking on my part" - which DU is not, JC said so many many times, it's a game about thinking and planning, from building ships to cities.

 

You would understand the theorycrafting of EVE at least, if you played it past the superficial "space battles game" and why people swear by it - even JC himself, he wants to make a game that invokes EVE's meta-game and theorycrafting but being better at the same time.

 

 

 

So no. Noone in DU will win anyy form of battle without putting some serious math into firuging out the best ship type for their mineral wealtth. Those who won't put math into their plans, will just be bottom-feeders - just as they are in EVE.

 

 

Back on the main topic, don't derail the thread :P .

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yeah theory-crafting planning etc, meta-game i understand that, meta-game is literally why i joined this game, but when everyone starts suggesting basically the mechanics be a copy of eve - the du limitations, it gets annoying. i almost never see any topic in DU without seeing EVE mentioned a dozen times. most people here are limiting du by what eve is, rather than what du could be.

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yeah theory-crafting planning etc, meta-game i understand that, meta-game is literally why i joined this game, but when everyone starts suggesting basically the mechanics be a copy of eve - the du limitations, it gets annoying. i almost never see any topic in DU without seeing EVE mentioned a dozen times. most people here are limiting du by what eve is, rather than what du could be.

Who is suggesting "limiting" ? Can you please stop putting words in people's mouths ?

 

EVE has literally no limits on theorycrafting and meta - minus the legal ones of course or the hardcoded limitations on theorycrafting.

 

In fact, DU has even less limits, since ships can be made free-form and people CAN walk on stations and on planets.

 

But thing is, there's a reason tanks are not shaped like unicorns in real life. All MBTs share the same design, cause the design is efficient.

 

Will DU ships end up looking all the same? Not really, unlike MBTs, spaceships can go in many different routes, depending on a faction's tactics.

 

It's not about "what we EVE players want" rather than "what already is in the game", from what JC has confirmed :)

 

 

Oh, someone doesn't like doing math ? Tough luck, they will be space poor and a space-grunt. Space battles involving 5000 players take actual brains to organise and operate. It takes a few guys who came together and figured out the best ship model, with the best guns for the playstyle, then had pilots train in the maneuvers involved, and drills for the gunners to know where and what to fire upon in a battle.

 

If anyone doesn't like that meta-game from EVE and the theorycrafting of WINNING a war, then those people should not expect to be anything but bottom-feeders.

 

Now stop derailing the thread. Mkay? Mkay.

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