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Molgor

consequences of non-regenerating planets and ressources

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..... omg.... business idea! running around planets being paid to restore sections of land to their original appearance :P

 

regenerative land couldn't work, seems like it might be more of a nuisance than anything useful... imagine building a mining outpost on a planet, get a new game and go inactive for a month... come back online and the mine shaft has been filled in.... meaning you'd have to dig it back out to finish mining -_-

 

given how massive planets are, I don't see the starting planet running out of fuel within the lifespan of the game.....

 

however a compromise could be made.... If the area around the ARK ship were to be restricted to players under a certain level, or if it was a "once you leave you can't come back" thing, The planet could be regenerative (meaning ores and dirt regenerate)..... to prevent overpopulation this area could destroy buildings when players leave the protected area (either after they reach their level, or just when they leave depending which scenario is used)....

 

this would guarantee players somewhere with the basic resources needed to get started in life, and prevent players coming back to take advantage of the regenerative ores (1 mining outpost, harvesting fuel from an infinite ore vein?..... talk about an imbalanced market xD)

 

 

 

with response to things looking ugly after a while... I concur.... if you've ever played on a minecraft map that doesn't reset every 3 months, you'll know that even infinite worlds look hideous after a few months of mining......

 

Dual Universe would have the problem these minecraft servers have.... which is players get bored of looking for somewhere to set up and get started because they'd have to travel for hours to find some undisturbed land

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I'm a little worried this is what the arkzone will look like.

If you are right, then do what any respectable community member would do. Fix it. Landscaping is dirt cheap

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Got no problem with non-regenerating resources. That leaves the decision of what to do with the player. The only other thing is I'd also make sure that asteroids were just as lucrative(if not more) as mining a planet. Planets have gravity wells too, which should mean something in terms of payload and thrust and fuel.

 

This way players have more content too. An org decides whether they really need to mine the crap out of a 'pretty' planet. NQ adds animals and that only adds more content with which to weigh ones decision. Maybe an org gets so attached to a habitable planet they put policy that limits planetary exploitation. Maybe it turns into a causus belli when another org decides to 'deface' a planet in a system with a perfectly good asteroid belt.

 

But planets are not all equal. Some are little more than really big rock, others have a smidgen of atmo and a few are habitable gems between the black.

 

A tangential would be to mine gases from gas giants. Off the top of my head would be ships that are designed to 'skim' off the surface of gas giants to collect various gases to be processed into fuel or whatnot.

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I have a question. People say to fill it back in. I have read other forums that said, or strongly suggested, that when collecting ore you will not gather dirt. If this is the case what would we fill it back in with? I personally wouldn't mind filling a hole back in with excess dirt that I have. However if I have to build blocks out of ore to place down to have a smooth surface I wouldn't fill it back in. Or are the others wrong and will we collect dirt when gathering ore?

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3 hours ago, jmorrison51 said:

I have a question. People say to fill it back in. I have read other forums that said, or strongly suggested, that when collecting ore you will not gather dirt. If this is the case what would we fill it back in with? I personally wouldn't mind filling a hole back in with excess dirt that I have. However if I have to build blocks out of ore to place down to have a smooth surface I wouldn't fill it back in. Or are the others wrong and will we collect dirt when gathering ore?

 

I'm pretty sure that if you mine dirt you will get dirt. Most materials will be buried under the surface so you will have to do a bit of digging to get to it which will give you some excess dirt/basic materials. 

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17 hours ago, Lord_Void said:

 

I'm pretty sure that if you mine dirt you will get dirt. Most materials will be buried under the surface so you will have to do a bit of digging to get to it which will give you some excess dirt/basic materials. 

That is what I though and hope for, just hearing mixed responses on different topics. Do you have a quote from the Devs or anything? The video that I watched showed them mining and when they placed the voxels back it looked like ore that they mined and not the top 4 feet of dirt that was showed in the video. 

 

If we have dirt to fill back in the hole I wouldn't mind  doing some landscaping.

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27 minutes ago, jmorrison51 said:

That is what I though and hope for, just hearing mixed responses on different topics. Do you have a quote from the Devs or anything? The video that I watched showed them mining and when they placed the voxels back it looked like ore that they mined and not the top 4 feet of dirt that was showed in the video. 

 

If we have dirt to fill back in the hole I wouldn't mind  doing some landscaping.

 

Keep in mind that is all pre-alpha footage. Things may not look like they will in the final game, or dirt mining may not have been fully added yet.

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On 12-9-2016 at 3:48 PM, Anasasi said:


Its either an endless cycle or it is something that regenerates. 
Or we just end up with really hole filled planets... :P  

Or...it give us reason/meaning to explore further and beyond deep space to discover new resources.

 

Or we wait untill maintenance 'the next week' and see if a new planet with new resources has been implemented overnight :lol: ;)

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I don't think the terrain should "magically" regenerate, I think it should just VERY slowly  (weeks or months of RL time) round the sharp edges and cover everything with whatever terrain cover (grass, trees, shrubs, etc) exists in the general area.

 

If anyone plugs a mine tunnel entrance with some dirt, grass will slowly cover it and the bare earth will blend in with the natural terrain over time. The tunnel itself will remain, and may "collapse" after a year or so, but nobody will know it exists. If the entrance is blocked and covered with grass, the mine itself will not be an eyesore.

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Minecraft doesn't have resources that regenerate, and they seem to be doing fine.

Considering Alioth is going to be much deeper than a minecraft world, I can't imagine that running out of ore in the game would become a problem.

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10 hours ago, Vellnn said:

Minecraft doesn't have resources that regenerate, and they seem to be doing fine.

Considering Alioth is going to be much deeper than a minecraft world, I can't imagine that running out of ore in the game would become a problem.

The comparison isn't completely bad but still lacking in my view because the ultimate player count is limited due to dedicated servers. While I did play on a civcraft server that has been going for years with many player slots in the usual area of 15k x 15k and I can't remember how bad or good it was (I think you still found them despite large areas of the underground being hollow like giant caverns or on that server they did slowly regen), we have to keep the dimensions of DU in mind. 

 

Single shard. All in the same world. A starting planet and systems. We look at potentially tens of thousands of players active at a time and most want resources at one point. 

 

If the universe will be big enough this won't matter much in the grand scale but on a local level, you might just see a lot of resource depletion after a while or even fast. 

 

Just look at our planet 🌍 

 

Space and resources are not endless. But demand pretty much is. With no mild regeneration and or ways of recycling, you might face problems at one point. Like we do in reality, eventually. 

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I think you're seriously underestimating how big the planet is XD

Even if you had 10,000 people digging 8 hours a day nonstop (which is pretty unrealistic), you'd still only dig out a measly 10% of the planet after 19 years of daily grueling mining. Not to mention, you'll also have to move the ore and sell it/use it, and move the ore around. It's not like you can just dig forever, I doubt they'll give us an infinite inventory.

Also there are going to be a lot of planets in the starting solar system, not to mention the moons and asteroids. They'll probably introduce new solar systems later too.

Also, it's not like everyone is going to be mining all the time. A lot of people are going to be traders/pirates/military personnel/governors/builders/planners.

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I think I might be.

 

I suppose we'll see how it will be later then. So far the models shown seem subjectively somewhat limited in size, as everything is limited. The "zoom-ins" on the planets in the trailers and whatnot give a rough indication on size and you then just have to think that ten thousand players are on there. But then again it's surely all just placeholders and it will grow in size. Or maybe I mistake the dimensions that are already there, but I'm fairly certain it wasn't big enough yet.

 

To compare, the generated Minecraft world was often said to be roughly 8 times of Earth - but no one would ever really utilize it for obvious reasons, given the dedicated servers, limited numbers and more unstable situation should players run in all directions and keep generating map pieces.

 

With tens of thousands of players each world has to be huge to allow for resources to be obtained from it even after years, I suppose. In addition they're ideally also deep so you don't have to expand much or not as fast horizontally. From what I heard or read, it appears to be deeper than MC.

 

But it's all just guesswork for me at this point and I do not want to really worry about it. We'll see the dimensions again or better (or with changes) as things progress and as we get closer to a working Beta or full release. A lot can happen until then.

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The consequence of finite resources will no doubt be war. Civilizations will rise and fall. Economies will thrive and collapse. Eventually it's gonna be Mad Max on a galactic scale. In the mean time though, day 1 through say day 12, should be a lot of fun.

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1 hour ago, Forodrim said:

The starter Planet has 50,862 claimable 1km2 tiles. I would think that is pretty huge. 

https://dualuniverse.gamepedia.com/Alioth

 

I missed this, thanks for the reference, that is good to know.

 

Now, assuming this will either stay that way, increase or at least roughly stay the same, it means that basically every organization* has the chance to claim a piece out in space (if not on the starter planet, then elsewhere).

 

Seems like good news to me all in all meaning you can likely have an organizational presence on the starting planet, even if some might still rush for subjectively good spots.

 

 

*I draw this conclusion because another certain space game has around 50,000 player organizations (a bit less, maybe then 50k or more by release) - so for starters in DU we'd have to have 50,000 player organizations before we'd have to worry about claiming one tile on the starting planet. Additional assessment: not all of the 50,000 orgs might be eligible for / able to claim a tile or keep it over a longer time, so organizations owning several tiles would possibly keep the average even or not be a problem in the calculation

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2 hours ago, Captain Jack said:

The consequence of finite resources will no doubt be war. Civilizations will rise and fall. Economies will thrive and collapse. Eventually it's gonna be Mad Max on a galactic scale. In the mean time though, day 1 through say day 12, should be a lot of fun.

Agreed. Scarcity of ressources should actually be a feature, if everything is regenerating there would be no reason to fight for the best spots! And when when one spot is no longer valueble it would give the perfect incentive to move to another planet, or solar-system! ;)

 

Ok, I’m not saying we should ever be able to run out of basic resources like iron… but even in Minecraft you never have scarcity of iron. It’s sth. you can collect along the way without thinking much about it. But what you really care about in MC are the diamonds, which can actually become very hard to find in a crowded server...

Similarly I think “Endgame” resources of DU should be hard to get. You will probably not even find these resources on Alioth, but only on a few moons on distant planets. And that’s where the fighting will start.

 

So in conclusion:

- Beginners should have no trouble to get into the game. They essentially dig a whole, get some dirt, and build their dirt ship. = basic resources are pretty much infinite.
- Competitive players however should go hunting for the best spots to be able to produce the highest tier of engine/fuel/gun/ammunition.
This concept is also very scalable. So in the first month the hot-spots might be on Alioth, in the first year on some moons, after 3 years on another solar system, ect..

 

Of course the issue Warden has stated should also be kept in mind. If a 50k org manages to get control over the only moon which supplies an endgame resource this could collapse the economy.
But I think I remember in some interview JC said they want to use asteroids to balance out these resource shortages, so players will be able to mine from asteroids instead of the moon, which is temporarily looked down.

 

 

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One possible solution to the "destruction of matter though x" could be reintroducing the destroyed matter via an asteroid belt that forms around the starting planet. No player would keep trac of every single asteroid, so I wouldn't break immersion too much if new asteroids appeared in the belt (except when you purposefully completely mine a certain part of the belt, but thats your own fault then really) These asteroids would contain mostly dirt to fill up, but also very small amounts of basic ores, as to keep the starting planet a good starting point.

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I don't think that this is necessary, a appropriate (regarding the developers goal) game mechanic for DU, nor to relevant at the moment:

  • Planets are so big that it will take a long time, until the resources will run out. And before that player will be on other planets or even in other star systems.
  • Re-spawning asteroids would mean, that you could harvest recourses without that much risk. They are relativ small objects who are scattered in the system, in comparison to ore vens on planets which you can (have to?) claim and in that case need to defend, after you scanned them down. And if they are res-pawning you can gain a lot of resources out of a system without getting into to much risk at getting caught.
  • When resources do re-spawn, then there is less need to move out of the starting system.

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9 hours ago, SimonVolcanov said:

One possible solution to the "destruction of matter though x" could be reintroducing the destroyed matter via an asteroid belt that forms around the starting planet. 

No, it is not needed, as other already pointed out: 

 

 

there are plenty of resources on the Planet, by the time they will get scarce a lot of other planets will have been colonized and can be used for resources. An artificial "replenishing" is not a good idea. 

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1 hour ago, Forodrim said:

No, it is not needed, as other already pointed out: 

 

 

there are plenty of resources on the Planet, by the time they will get scarce a lot of other planets will have been colonized and can be used for resources. An artificial "replenishing" is not a good idea. 

I guess we can therefore assume that "non-regenerating resources" will basically be irrelevant to normal game play in DU ! :D

 

The only way it will be felt is in the case of extremely rare resources, which will be seeded in small quantities. Those resources will be depleted quickly once located, so finding more of them will be the primary drive behind expansion to new planets and solar systems.

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44 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

The only way it will be felt is in the case of extremely rare resources, which will be seeded in small quantities. Those resources will be depleted quickly once located, so finding more of them will be the primary drive behind expansion to new planets and solar systems.

yes, as it should be. :)

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