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How to progress after Demeter?


miaminice
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I am a new player choose my frist tile on the sanct moon last week. With the today update i run into serious problems. Can someone please explain me how to progess after the demeter update? 

The mining units just produce 20l/h and with my charges i can substain 4 units (6 hour chage cooldown and the units need a calibration every 24 hour). Thats 80l/h, 200L every day on T1 ores. Can someone explain my how to progess with this kind of yield?

 

Before Demeter i mined around 20 000 ore per day. I see no way to get into space with just 200l every day. 

 

Regards 

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1 minute ago, miaminice said:

I got the point. But i will not come to the point where i can substain a remote tile with just 200l t1 income per day. How to earn any money for that? 

 

Hi,

 

Mining units are to supplement mining on asteroids.  There is a big push to get people into space and PvP space.  Do you have a space capable ship?

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17 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

The idea is for you to do the mining on a remote planet. 

 

Mining on the starter zones is not supposed to be profitable. 

His point is the huge wall between you and even getting to that point in the game. Starting from scratch right now is insane compared to yesterday, unless you do pure org group play as a noobie it'll be a huge grind to get established as a solo-player compared to before demeter.  Oof. 

As an established player, these changes are rough- but for new players starting out... it's near pure brutality mode now. 

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42 minutes ago, Honvik said:

 

Hi,

 

Mining units are to supplement mining on asteroids.  There is a big push to get people into space and PvP space.  Do you have a space capable ship?

 

 

Like i wrote, i started last week with this game. I managed to build a Container M production and allready sold 4 containers. With these million i created today a Mining Unit S production just to realise that i can build nothing with the outcome from this units.

If you ask me yesterday when i will start to go to space and start the hunt for asteroids, i would say next week. If you ask me know - i have no idea. The updates kills my entire progesss. The game feels not rewarding right now. I can just build nothing. And i play this game just for building things.

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29 minutes ago, miaminice said:

 

 

Like i wrote, i started last week with this game. I managed to build a Container M production and allready sold 4 containers. With these million i created today a Mining Unit S production just to realise that i can build nothing with the outcome from this units.

If you ask me yesterday when i will start to go to space and start the hunt for asteroids, i would say next week. If you ask me know - i have no idea. The updates kills my entire progesss. The game feels not rewarding right now. I can just build nothing. And i play this game just for building things.

 

The best way for you to make money currently is to harvest ground rocks. If you make 100lh or 2400l ber pay you can do more harvesting the ground rocks since it takes 5 rocks to double your output in about 2-3mins of harvesting providing you are in an area that has a decent amount of rocks around you. You can probably pull 100 rocks per hour for 2kl worth of ore which is more than you would have gotten per day anyhow. Its boring since you could litterally dig for like 5 mins with regular mining and get 4kl. Its money though and youll get a random amount of T1-2 ore while you do it so youll get some cash that way. Even when I first started I was able to do 1L container per day if you notice the spawn patterns.

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9 hours ago, joaocordeiro said:

The idea is for you to do the mining on a remote planet. 

 

Mining on the starter zones is not supposed to be profitable. 

And how is a newb supposed to get into space in any meaningful way with 200L/day, and the daily 150K that may or may not go away at release?

 

Never mind space, what about just being able to experiment with building and elements to figure out how the game works? It is easy to forget that a new player does no have a clue how to build effectively and make a functional space ship. And buying different elements for testing and making mistakes, takes on a whole other meaning when one mistake can be days or even weeks worth of quanta.

 

For some reason NQ seem to have this idea that they can pretend they have a full game loop, if they just slow down progress on the few working game features they already have.

 

And if I hear one more person say "just join a org" I am going to lose it.

That should never be the solution to work around bad game design. Especially when the game was supposed be an open world with few restrictions on your play style.

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8 hours ago, BlindingBright said:

As an established player, these changes are rough- but for new players starting out... it's near pure brutality mode now. 

 

Which is why NQ should have done a wipe with this patch. But they refuse to understand that what they are doing is destructive to the game

 

It's the same with just resetting mining talents. How does that make sense when mining "the old way" is still a thing in game? What if I want my character to be able to keep mining asteroids AND use mining units. NQ once more both did not listen to feedback here and never considered many suggestions on how to better manage talents. Giving players the OPTION to respec once every 6 months (which happens to mostly align with major patches) is not unreasonable, actually pretty common in today's MMO games and a good QoL as well as being extremely low cost as far as development time unless your code is a total mess.

It really looks like the scans removal decision was a fluke, an accidental good choice by NQ, as otherwise they remain as ignorant as ever. I do predict another "we heard you" moment in a few weeks, possible shortly before Xmas, where they overreact and dial things up way too much. They need to balance this thing and wipe. The existing player base will still have a _massive_ advantage over new players once a wipe happens but ta the same time, it gives new players a chance to both latch on to more experienced players and get going at a mor balanced pace. 

 

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1 hour ago, Jake Arver said:

 

Which is why NQ should have done a wipe with this patch. But they refuse to understand that what they are doing is destructive to the game

How does wiping solve a boring grind loop with low yields? I hate mining with a passion. But if nothing else a least with mining there was a feeling of reward for doing a chore, and sensible yields. And remember the context here is new players, so asteroid mining is something that comes later, if at all depending on your play style.

 

Quote

It's the same with just resetting mining talents. How does that make sense when mining "the old way" is still a thing in game? What if I want my character to be able to keep mining asteroids AND use mining units.
 

 

Then you just put the points back into mining again, and you are back to where you started. Takes like maybe 2 minutes?

 

Quote

It really looks like the scans removal decision was a fluke, an accidental good choice by NQ, as otherwise they remain as ignorant as ever. I do predict another "we heard you" moment in a few weeks, possible shortly before Xmas, where they overreact and dial things up way too much. They need to balance this thing and wipe. The existing player base will still have a _massive_ advantage over new players once a wipe happens but ta the same time, it gives new players a chance to both latch on to more experienced players and get going at a mor balanced pace.

Veterans with lots of play time will always have an 'advantage' over new players. With the exception of exploits (mostly mitigated when NQ capped all wallets with excessive amounts), wiping the game just means that you move the 'advantage' forward in time so that it now affects players that join later after the release instead. Veterans will always get a running start, since they have the knowledge on how the game works.

 

So any advantage of wiping, must be measured against the disadvantage of removing all user generated content and the frustration that brings in a builder MMO.

 

 

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1 minute ago, CptLoRes said:

Veterans will always get a running start, since they will retain the knowledge on how the game works.

 

Of course they do, its why the argument you lose everything on a wipe is really not justified at all. This patch makes massive changes to the game which are pretty much unsurmountable for new players. The fact that many who are still active have been maining like madmen prior to the patch because they knew what was coming is a major hint why a patch would have been justified. This amounts to the same effect creeated by NQ by not properly fixing damage from exploits several times in the past year, only now it benefits ALL players in game prior to Demeter.

 

Regardless of labels, the game is pre-alpha. Part of pre-alpha especially is that you make massive changes which can be disruptive and damaging to the game if it was live. You resolve that by a wipe. That's why I am sure that is coming anyway but also think that a wipe here would have been entirely justified from a development point of view.

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3 minutes ago, Jake Arver said:

Of course they do, its why the argument you lose everything on a wipe is really not justified at all.

We keep coming back to this point. DU is a builder focused MMO. And for a builder losing all the work they have put into constructs is not "a running start" by any means. It is more of a "time to find another game" type of deal.

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10 hours ago, miaminice said:

Thats 80l/h, 200L every day on T1 ores.

I would start by investing more time in math and a calculator before continuing playing DU... ?

 

If you're indeed only getting 20L /h from Sanctuary per autominer (which is significantly less compared to what I saw in PTS), you're still getting 1.920 L /day.

A miner will run for longer then a single day though on a mining charge. That also means you can have more then four.

After each mining charge expenditure you get a bunch of higher value rocks on the ground, pick those up. There are also more rocks around your tile you can pick up. The T2 ones you can sell for a nice profit (for now), I expect that every 20L T2 rock is worth about 6000+ quanta, a full pack (4000L) would be 1,2+ million quanta. Buy schematics, start building T1 factory, see next item.

Your currently working with the mini autominer, there's a bigger T1 Basic Autominer you can build in your factory that has about twice the capacity of the mini autominer.

Then you can train your automining skills to get more, for longer and more mining charges per day.

You can also try to get/pay someone to place the mining units with the autominer handling skills.

After you've build a bunch of basic autominers, build some more, build a couple of territory claim units, save a couple of million quanta from you're daily login and T2 ore sales. Use the shuttle to go to Alioth, claim a tile, place basic autominers, claim the tiles next to it, expand, because for every adjacent tile you get a 20% bonus.

 

It has been calculated (by experts) that with max skills, enough tiles, and strategic use of mining charges you can mine 150.000L/day/character. But certainly not on Sanctuary!

 

And if you think that picking up rocks sucks, it's pretty much what I did the first week on DU over a year ago when the beta started.

 

Side-note: also make a small cargo vehicle on both Sanctuary and Alioth, this will save you a ton of running around!

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Yeah, i see they work offline. So its nearly 2k ore per day. Also i can mine all 3 secs 20L of T1 ore by hand mining. So thats 400l every min if i dont fall a sleep regarding of boring gameplay. 

Before Demeter i mined around 4k ore all 5 minutes with cool gameplay. Scanning and so on. Now i am a stupid slave that is dump enough to press left mouse button all 3 secs? Sorry that is no kind of gameplay. That is something i will call work, not gaming. 

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2 minutes ago, miaminice said:

Yeah, i see they work offline. So its nearly 2k ore per day. Also i can mine all 3 secs 20L of T1 ore by hand mining. So thats 400l every min if i dont fall a sleep regarding of boring gameplay. 

Before Demeter i mined around 4k ore all 5 minutes with cool gameplay. Scanning and so on. Now i am a stupid slave that is dump enough to press left mouse button all 3 secs? Sorry that is no kind of gameplay. That is something i will call work, not gaming. 

Some people called the mining you call gameplay also work. Just a different perspective. You can still mine, but you'll have to join a group of asteroid miners and do it in space.

 

You do 10min of rock grabbing and you'll have have a backpack full of T2 ore. Sell it on market, get million(s), buy schematics/T1 ore, build factory, build better stuff, repeat. You should not be rock picking for months. After a week you should be ready to move to Alioth an get more in the 20.000+ ore per day range after some more work/gameplay.

 

I still sometimes pick up rocks because I forgot to do stuf (like bring fuel, scrap or some elements), but avoid it when I can.

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11 hours ago, miaminice said:

I got the point. But i will not come to the point where i can substain a remote tile with just 200l t1 income per day. How to earn any money for that? 

Not, this just shows how broken this idea is, just go pickup surface ore yourself the ores lying around are 20 L per piece and about 10 to 20 second work to grab

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2 hours ago, CptLoRes said:

And how is a newb supposed to get into space in any meaningful way with 200L/day, and the daily 150K that may or may not go away at release?

You can go to space with that. The problem is to buy a territory and transfer the goods with that. 

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1 hour ago, CptLoRes said:

We keep coming back to this point. DU is a builder focused MMO. And for a builder losing all the work they have put into constructs is not "a running start" by any means. It is more of a "time to find another game" type of deal.

Indeed, if NQ does a wipe they can probably cancel the game, most veterans that now have worked their ass of with the idea everything stays will likely move on. And to be honest with the payment plan, the features scrapped, the stuf that stayed in i dont see busloads of starters waiting for the gates to be opened.  We lost more features then we even got at kickstarter at the moment and most is not even working like planetary conquest. I am having a hard time to fit this progress and the future into the kickstarter ideal

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2 minutes ago, Aaron Cain said:

Indeed, if NQ does a wipe they can probably cancel the game, most veterans that now have worked their ass of with the idea everything stays will likely move on.

It is also why the tax is probably going to be a bigger problem then some make it out to be.

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51 minutes ago, Cergorach said:

Some people called the mining you call gameplay also work. Just a different perspective. You can still mine, but you'll have to join a group of asteroid miners and do it in space.

 

You do 10min of rock grabbing and you'll have have a backpack full of T2 ore. Sell it on market, get million(s), buy schematics/T1 ore, build factory, build better stuff, repeat. You should not be rock picking for months. After a week you should be ready to move to Alioth an get more in the 20.000+ ore per day range after some more work/gameplay.

 

I still sometimes pick up rocks because I forgot to do stuf (like bring fuel, scrap or some elements), but avoid it when I can.

I am sorry but to stay a week with just clicking left mouse button 2-4h a day is not was i want to do after my rl work. I come home and just want relaxing and a bit fun on my pc. Just left clicking is a work for an automated system and not for a human. I am over 40 years old - i have better things to do as press dumb the same button over hours. 

 

I will try a bit but i guess i will change the back to avorion. This is also a space voxel game but with way more funny things to do. 

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6 minutes ago, miaminice said:

I am over 40 years old - i have better things to do as press dumb the same button over hours.

I'm 45 and mining ore the old way and collecting rocks uses the same dumb button, the left mouse button ?

I'm also very disappointed with the removal of the planet mining, that gameplay is now exclusive to asteroids. The scanning/finding of asteroids requires a specific element, that has gotten easier to build from previously. You might want to look at it as a possibility.

 

Games that make huge sweeping changes have the potential to alienate players, so maybe see you around. ?

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3 hours ago, miaminice said:

Yeah, i see they work offline. So its nearly 2k ore per day. Also i can mine all 3 secs 20L of T1 ore by hand mining. So thats 400l every min if i dont fall a sleep regarding of boring gameplay. 

Before Demeter i mined around 4k ore all 5 minutes with cool gameplay. Scanning and so on. Now i am a stupid slave that is dump enough to press left mouse button all 3 secs? Sorry that is no kind of gameplay. That is something i will call work, not gaming. 

I do have sympathy for new players. I also dont understand the point of even having auto miners on sanctuary if the limit is 2000 measly liters a day. That's 5 min of surface rocks which if I was new, I would just mine surface rocks. What's the point of autominers starting out on sanctuary? 

 

All the work for autominers that contributes 5min of surface rock harvesting tells me I am either missing something or NQ firmly remains as the most incompetent studio I have ever seen. 

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6 hours ago, Jake Arver said:

 

Which is why NQ should have done a wipe with this patch. But they refuse to understand that what they are doing is destructive to the game

 

It's the same with just resetting mining talents. How does that make sense when mining "the old way" is still a thing in game? What if I want my character to be able to keep mining asteroids AND use mining units. NQ once more both did not listen to feedback here and never considered many suggestions on how to better manage talents. Giving players the OPTION to respec once every 6 months (which happens to mostly align with major patches) is not unreasonable, actually pretty common in today's MMO games and a good QoL as well as being extremely low cost as far as development time unless your code is a total mess.

It really looks like the scans removal decision was a fluke, an accidental good choice by NQ, as otherwise they remain as ignorant as ever. I do predict another "we heard you" moment in a few weeks, possible shortly before Xmas, where they overreact and dial things up way too much. They need to balance this thing and wipe. The existing player base will still have a _massive_ advantage over new players once a wipe happens but ta the same time, it gives new players a chance to both latch on to more experienced players and get going at a mor balanced pace. 

 

 

This is a wpie just in reverse.

 

They are forcing people to sell things to convert it into wuanta and pay taxes and at the same time killing missions to take back all resources and quanta and pushing out anyone who cant pay taxes. and making people spend more gas, space gas, and warp cells.

 

Its a wipe just not the one most people thought they were going to do.

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