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Why PVP is important to the game.


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4 hours ago, Physics said:

I’m trying to understand how people will be forced to go to pvp zone? Safe zone triangle has up too T3 resources. If you don’t want to take the risk of going for the T4 / T5 resources then buy them off someone who is? I thought a major part of playing the PVE focused side of DU is the economy?

Why? There is nothing magic about T4/T5 other than they are rarer. No reason they should be locked behind a PvP paywall. The key is forced - you want people to be forced into PvP. Kind of selfish really. PvP with those who wish to PvP, no reason to try and force us who don't care to do so. Anyway, if one learned anything from EVE, it is not the individual PvP players who benefit but those who organize large corporations that can camp on and monopolize these rare resources that benefit.

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Well, no that I have your attention, yes I do think that PVP and specifically combat PVP is important to DU. It is not vital but it is important, if not very important. For Combat PVP to work it

If they don't stick to their original promise here then many many players will be out.   Thats why there are safezones. That's why you shouldn't be in the ffa Zone if you arent prepared to l

I'm so tired of this discussion.  You all see the state of the game right now, right?  It's because of a lack of decent PvP.  Carebear builders don't want to actually PLAY this game with us.  They jus

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3 hours ago, Cheith said:

Why? There is nothing magic about T4/T5 other than they are rarer. No reason they should be locked behind a PvP paywall. The key is forced - you want people to be forced into PvP. Kind of selfish really. PvP with those who wish to PvP, no reason to try and force us who don't care to do so. Anyway, if one learned anything from EVE, it is not the individual PvP players who benefit but those who organize large corporations that can camp on and monopolize these rare resources that benefit.

A balance has to be struck between the risk of the PVP area and the reward for venturing there.  Individuals and groups will suffer losses fighting each other so there must be something worth fighting over that cannot be had in safe space. 

 

It is the primarily the materials sink of PVP that will drive the economy of this game so giving players an incentive to fight each other will benefit even those who want nothing to do with PVP. 

 

This is coming from someone who was most interested in industry in his Eve days.  Players in DU's safe space would not be any more cut off from high end materials than they were in Eve. Should DU survive to launch, there will be players who shuttle goods between PVP and non PVP areas. 

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13 hours ago, Cheith said:

As long as no resources are locked up in the PvP zones - then you are being forced to go if you want to create/build using those resources. And, yes, you can buy it but then you are back to the EVE paradigm where the big corps muscle in, rule the valuable ore zones and this is (mechanic wise) an EVE clone with cool building capabilities. 

Nope, no need to go there. And nope, if done right there wouldn't be any sort of cartel, as in eve. 

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9 hours ago, Anomaly said:

A balance has to be struck between the risk of the PVP area and the reward for venturing there.  Individuals and groups will suffer losses fighting each other so there must be something worth fighting over that cannot be had in safe space. 

 

It is the primarily the materials sink of PVP that will drive the economy of this game so giving players an incentive to fight each other will benefit even those who want nothing to do with PVP. 

 

This is coming from someone who was most interested in industry in his Eve days.  Players in DU's safe space would not be any more cut off from high end materials than they were in Eve. Should DU survive to launch, there will be players who shuttle goods between PVP and non PVP areas. 

Right - so you agree - essentially a paywall to get the resources that some other group of people set up. That is the EVE system when you boil it down.

 

You also make an assumption that this all about money for the builders. For some it will be, but in a game where you can build anything and everything that is just not true - it is about time. If I can mine the resources and you don't put the blueprints in a PvP zone then I can build and I don't need the income.

 

There are other perfectly reasonable ways of generating decay other than PvP such as 'rusting', 'weathering' or proper crash damages rather than what we have now. PvP is not the be all and end all of an economy if you 'do it right'. The problem for many players is if 'dong it right' doesn't involve shooting other players who don't want to be shot at it seems to be an issue.

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7 hours ago, Lethys said:

Nope, no need to go there. And nope, if done right there wouldn't be any sort of cartel, as in eve. 

Great blanket statement wit no evidence or game mechanics to back it up. We shall see.

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7 hours ago, Cheith said:

Great blanket statement wit no evidence or game mechanics to back it up. We shall see.

Eve != du. 

 

Cartels in eve Revolved around moons and such, not ore per se. So it's a useless comparison. 

 

In DU, space and planets are massive. So chances are that one org won't and can't hold any amount of high value territory to form a cartel on it's own. And even IF they could and even IF mechanics are just like in eve where ppl even could build cartels.....so what? Even in eve (which again, is a bad comparison) it worked nonetheless and ppl could build anything they wanted in high sec (yeah yeah, supers, caps and titans and shit cant be built there).

 

So yeah, having an actual incentive to go there and having a reason to defend all that stuff out there so you can earn mir money by selling it to ppl in the safezone actually helps the game. 

 

But if you can't figure that out by yourself then yes, it was just a blanket statement 

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9 minutes ago, Lethys said:

Eve != du. 

 

Eve launched in 2003; someone born at launch would be 18 (in two weeks). 

 

I'm not trying to make everyone feel old, but want to emphasize how wrong it is for DU to emulate Eve in general...because these comparisons seem to come up on every long thread.

 

Eve is almost 18 years old -- what worked for an MMO then won't work for an MMO today.


Frankly, NQ needs to attract younger players to survive -- the demographics seem to skew older, and that's not especially healthy for an MMO. 

 

I get that the original "vision" was inspired in large part by Eve...but JC is gone now, for good reason, and Eve needs to stop being a model for anything because it's simply out of date -- hardcore back in 2000 isn't the same as hardcore today.

 

I get that DU will always be a niche/hardcore game, but to be a niche MMO it needs to widen its base...and thinking back to a game that was released almost 18 years ago isn't going to lead to success in 2021 and beyond.

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On 4/23/2021 at 3:56 AM, rothbardian said:

Never underestime a power of a passionate man. The great creators — the thinkers, the artists, the scientists, the inventors — stood alone against the men of their time. Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won.

All of those things you mentioned were not the soul work of a single individual.  

 

The airplane, the Wright Brothers.

Just for example.

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I'm so tired of this discussion.  You all see the state of the game right now, right?  It's because of a lack of decent PvP.  Carebear builders don't want to actually PLAY this game with us.  They just want our adoration  - of their empty, useless buildings.

 

See, I'm not a PvP player.  I am a builder.  And a pretty darn good one (if I say so myself). However, I am NOT satisfied building an empty city no one will ever use, let alone visit. I don't care how many "likes" I get on Twitter for my skills.  That is the ONLY end-goal in a building game without PvP;  Likes, adoration, popularity and logging in every day to see how awesome people think you are.  You don't want an actual game, you just want to showcase your building skills somewhere.  And then you call people like ME toxic because you don't like it when I defend the vision this game is built upon.

 

If you want an economy, politics, civilization, you have to have PvP.  If you want your builds to MEAN something and have purpose, you need PvP. Period.  That is exactly what builders like me came to this game for.  Please, for the love of God, please just go find one of the many building games without PvP in them and go play those.  Quit trying to ruin a game that is already on its last leg.  Many of us builders came here specifically so our builds can have purpose.  I want to see if I can build beautiful buildings that can actually protect my belongings, my org and my city.  I WANT people to attack them to see if my designs are just fluff or if they can stand up to the challenge. 

 

This is why this game is so f'd up right now.  The more NQ listens to people who signed for this game only to try to change the vision, the faster this game will end up in the tank.  Seen it happen.  Every damn time.  No one wants to EVER let builders who LIKE PvP actually have a game where you can build AND have PvP.  I'm so sick of trying to play games with these people who are so afraid of digital bullets running their digital buildings that don't mean anything at all except something to look at.  What a waste of my time to even think that carebear pve players would let us alone and let us have a game built for just us for a change. 

 

Well I'm sure you're going to get your wish because game devs fall for carebear threats of leaving every damn time.  I predict that very soon the only threat to your builds will be the game being shut down due to lack of players.  And when it that happens, please remember that YOU had a hand in its demise.

 

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I already wrote it here. It is nothing more than stroking the ego phallus.

If you want to get the attention you get on twitter or similar social media about how great you've built something and then get likes, go for it.

 

But then you don't have to be surprised that you now have Landmark in space. With the difference that Landmark still had pvp...

And Dhara hits the nail on the head: it's your own fault if the game can't keep players. It was laughed at back in December 2019 that pvp has no influence, now everyone is demanding it. And NQ listened to the wrong people.

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3 hours ago, Lethys said:

Eve != du. 

 

Cartels in eve Revolved around moons and such, not ore per se. So it's a useless comparison. 

 

In DU, space and planets are massive. So chances are that one org won't and can't hold any amount of high value territory to form a cartel on it's own. And even IF they could and even IF mechanics are just like in eve where ppl even could build cartels.....so what? Even in eve (which again, is a bad comparison) it worked nonetheless and ppl could build anything they wanted in high sec (yeah yeah, supers, caps and titans and shit cant be built there).

 

So yeah, having an actual incentive to go there and having a reason to defend all that stuff out there so you can earn mir money by selling it to ppl in the safezone actually helps the game. 

 

But if you can't figure that out by yourself then yes, it was just a blanket statement 

It helps certainly play styles in the game - as to whether that helps the whole game and how important those playstyles are is a matter of opinion.

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40 minutes ago, Dhara said:

I'm so tired of this discussion.  You all see the state of the game right now, right?  It's because of a lack of decent PvP.  Carebear builders don't want to actually PLAY this game with us.  They just want our adoration  - of their empty, useless buildings.

 

See, I'm not a PvP player.  I am a builder.  And a pretty darn good one (if I say so myself). However, I am NOT satisfied building an empty city no one will ever use, let alone visit. I don't care how many "likes" I get on Twitter for my skills.  That is the ONLY end-goal in a building game without PvP;  Likes, adoration, popularity and logging in every day to see how awesome people think you are.  You don't want an actual game, you just want to showcase your building skills somewhere.  And then you call people like ME toxic because you don't like it when I defend the vision this game is built upon.

 

If you want an economy, politics, civilization, you have to have PvP.  If you want your builds to MEAN something and have purpose, you need PvP. Period.  That is exactly what builders like me came to this game for.  Please, for the love of God, please just go find one of the many building games without PvP in them and go play those.  Quit trying to ruin a game that is already on its last leg.  Many of us builders came here specifically so our builds can have purpose.  I want to see if I can build beautiful buildings that can actually protect my belongings, my org and my city.  I WANT people to attack them to see if my designs are just fluff or if they can stand up to the challenge. 

 

This is why this game is so f'd up right now.  The more NQ listens to people who signed for this game only to try to change the vision, the faster this game will end up in the tank.  Seen it happen.  Every damn time.  No one wants to EVER let builders who LIKE PvP actually have a game where you can build AND have PvP.  I'm so sick of trying to play games with these people who are so afraid of digital bullets running their digital buildings that don't mean anything at all except something to look at.  What a waste of my time to even think that carebear pve players would let us alone and let us have a game built for just us for a change. 

 

Well I'm sure you're going to get your wish because game devs fall for carebear threats of leaving every damn time.  I predict that very soon the only threat to your builds will be the game being shut down due to lack of players.  And when it that happens, please remember that YOU had a hand in its demise.

 

Um, sorry, what - you don't need PvP that revolves around shooting people who are mining and you certainly don't need PvP to build a civilization - indeed civilizations are the opposite of PvP. When you get to be a civilization and a civilized people you have squashed the pirates, etc. you have police forces that site on the troublemakers as much as possible, etc. In short those who haul and mine don't need to care when there is civilization. At least get the analogies right.

 

Nothing to stop PvP happening in the game, the question is what style you have and what is possible. Is it EVE style where the PvP players get to control large parts of the universe? Is it a full open world PvP like say Mortal Online? Is it controlled and consensual like most of the large successful MMOs out there (some have dedicated areas others dedicated servers but it is still controlled).

 

So, stop the misrepresentation. It is more how and not if there is PvP. No one cares if there are PvP zones as long as it doesn't lock up resources and content for the majority. Everyone can then play at being a badass for a while if and when they wish. It is all about have choices - not implementation decisions being forced on you. You get to pick if you want the chance to be blown up - doesn't mean you have to try and force others down the same path.

 

The big issue, though, is it appears too many who want PvP seem to need to force others into being shot at. Seems to be part of the mindset for many. If you can blow up a defenseless ship every so often and shout smack in chat at folks it just doesn't count. Ah well.

 

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1 hour ago, Cheith said:

So, stop the misrepresentation. It is more how and not if there is PvP. No one cares if there are PvP zones as long as it doesn't lock up resources and content for the majority.

 

So it's about T4 & T5 resources now?

 

This game has ALWAYS been advertised as an open PvP game.

 

It was supposed to have one small safe zone on Alioth around the markets.

PvErs complained.

 

Then they added a safe moon.

PvErs complained.

 

Then they expanded it to three whole planets and all the space in between.

PvErs complained.

 

Then they added the surrogate thing so you didn't even have to travel in space at all!

PvErs complained.

 

Now you're complaining about not bein able to mine ore that is basically only useful for people who play PvP?

Call me shocked. 

 

No amount of concession or compromise is good enough for players like you.

 

No worries, you'll get your wish. but I estimate 6 months to a year before you lose ALL of your builds in one fell swoop with no option, whatsoever, to rebuild when the game gets shut down for being so damned boring.

 

Mark my words.

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32 minutes ago, Dhara said:

So it's about T4 & T5 resources now?

 

This game has ALWAYS been advertised as an open PvP game.

 

It was supposed to have one small safe zone on Alioth around the markets.

PvErs complained.

 

Then they added a safe moon.

PvErs complained.

 

Then they expanded it to three whole planets and all the space in between.

PvErs complained.

 

Then they added the surrogate thing so you didn't even have to travel in space at all!

PvErs complained.

 

Now you're complaining about not bein able to mine ore that is basically only useful for people who play PvP?

Call me shocked. 

 

No amount of concession or compromise is good enough for players like you.

 

No worries, you'll get your wish. but I estimate 6 months to a year before you lose ALL of your builds in one fell swoop with no option, whatsoever, to rebuild when the game gets shut down for being so damned boring.

 

Mark my words.

Like me - funny - you don't even know what like me is. But I digress - I want you to not lock content based on PvP, You want to force people to PvP because, well, because yeah whatever. Just because you do. It would appear fighting other people who want to PvP is not enough - you want to fight those that don't want to PvP. Basically you want easy targets.

 

As far as I can tell there are not too many games that got shut down for a lack of PvP. Lack of content, yes. Broken mechanics, yes. Boring mechanics, yes. Too many bugs, yes. 

 

Frankly if I lose all of my builds, or whatever, because the game doesn't make it then so be it. My world really doesn't revolve around the games I play. I play for entertainment recognizing that, at some point down the road, I will move on. It might be 6 months, 2 years or 5 years who knows - but eventually I will have done all I want to do and seen all I want to see and built all I want to build. It is all temporary and all virtual. Currently my longest spell playing something was EVE and that (on and off) was 7 years and in the end I gave everything away and trashed the characters as I knew I was not coming back.

 

So, yeah, wipe it - frankly it could do with a wipe in 6 months anyway to get rid of the plots of those who are not subscribed.

 

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People like you = people who choose to play PvP games and then complain about the PvP. 

 

That's what you're doing right?  But then you already knew that because that's what we're talking about.

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8 hours ago, Cheith said:

I want you to not lock content based on PvP, You want to force people to PvP because, well, because yeah whatever.

nope. we want what was promised. we want meaning. we want incentives.

noone forces you to go into the pvp zone. you can always hire someone to do that for you (you know, civilization....trading...stuff like that)

 

8 hours ago, Cheith said:

It would appear fighting other people who want to PvP is not enough - you want to fight those that don't want to PvP. Basically you want easy targets.

again, nope. It's all about incentives. Meaning to what we do

 

If everything is accessible to everyone without any risk then there is nothing to do in those zones and noone will ever settle there - because...why would they?

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If you want a civilization building game you have to give players a way to resolve conflicts beyond just shitposting at one another in and outside of the game. Since conflict is what makes any story interesting, you want to encourage players to get into situations where they come into conflict with something, and hopefully numerous ways to resolve them. That could be conflict with other players, or the environment, or themselves, whatever. Resolving any of these conflicts doesn't necessarily require combat, but let's be honest it's one of the more fun ways especially when you're in a sci-fi setting and get lasers and missiles and shit. Games exist that are fun without resorting to combat, but there's absolutely no hint that NQ is cooking up some sort of amazing and fun new nonviolent systems to blow our minds. I expect we're going to end up fighting a lot of the time. The particulars of how you fight can evolve over time but if fighting is a way you want players to be able to resolve things. The first step is letting them do it.

 

Ultimately though, I'm of the opinion that combat in DU is likely to primarily be a means to an end. It's possible they could come up with a better, more interesting system and maybe they actually pull it off, but there are a lot of rather tedious games out there that prove you don't really need something especially complex or revolutionary if the experience is in service of a larger goal. It doesn't really have to be a seismic shift in how we view space-fighting; in fact, it could remain fairly simple so long as there's actually something people are able to fight over. (Early on, anyway, it would hopefully improve over time.) A surprising number of people already put up with the grinding tedium for almost no reward other than the experience...imagine if they were able to feel like they were achieving something more by getting into those fights.

 

It's interesting to see how many different ideas people have for ways to shoehorn engaging combat into Dual Universe, but I think its future is more likely to lie in providing a scaffolding for peoples' interactions to generate a larger story that people are as interested in reading about as they are in being part of (if not more).

 

TL;DR The game needs conflicts and ways to resolve them, and that'll probably be by fighting cuz NQ doesn't look like it's coming up with anything else.

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You are all off sight !

Either this or either this ! NO .

NQ did it all right and will do all the right way .

 

Starting with safe environments ignited the economy industry and building . Gave players the chance to build their first ship and choose whether they risk it. As it is still now . Imagine there would be pvp from start everywhere then nothing will be produced traded and builded and you couldnt find elements to fight for pvp even . Industry requires a lot of materials to be transferred to a single location  from different places in order to deliver end products .So noone will settle a factory in an unsafe place risking his quanta.

 

Now as we proceed with the game in time and as far as we know NQ will make PVP more engaging in the future . Asteroids and space warfare will eventually bring more players to the battlefield for the materials and stuff they offer. Also remains to be seen if safe zones on outer planets will remain or vanish. So PVP will slowly get in the game more likely . But here are some factors you didnt consider :

One is if you win a battle and take massive loots you want to bring them to a safe environment and store them or sell them . Or big orgs will want to vomit their spoils of war into building . So there has to be a safe environment for that and not carrying it with you in your ship during pvp or risking them in an unsafe environment out in space . Otherwise whats the point of risking you ship in the first place . Even eve has stations where you DEPOSIT your valuable stuff.

And the other is industry ! Industry fuels the economy providing the basics for players . If there isnt a stable safe place to SETTLE your infrastructure then this will become difficult prices will rise and materials will be hard to collect in one place . And then you will probably wont find elements to build a pvp ship and go to fight for .

 

So PVP WILL be more interesting and the game will have an end goal to spend your money and risk them to gain more . Risk to get your hands in precious T4 and T5 materials (Asteroids and space warfare )and we all know all got some of that materials until now .  Do you think that ruined the game ? Of course not . You will always need more and more...That was just the initial amounts.

PVP is essential in the game because there has to be a sinkhole of quantas of course but in the other hand there has to be a kind of bank also (safe place) . So we must take PVP where it has to be at the exact spot on top of high end materials .That is what is going to happen . Thats the meeting point ... And thats fine !!!

SEE YOU THERE !!!

 

Habitant

Habitants Organization

 

 

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10 hours ago, Dhara said:

People like you = people who choose to play PvP games and then complain about the PvP. 

 

That's what you're doing right?  But then you already knew that because that's what we're talking about.

It is not a PvP game - it is a game that has PvP in it not the same thing. You don't have half the things you have in this game if it is a 'PvP' game and, for the most part, you don't get creative people playing PvP games.

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2 hours ago, Lethys said:

nope. we want what was promised. we want meaning. we want incentives.

noone forces you to go into the pvp zone. you can always hire someone to do that for you (you know, civilization....trading...stuff like that)

 

again, nope. It's all about incentives. Meaning to what we do

 

If everything is accessible to everyone without any risk then there is nothing to do in those zones and noone will ever settle there - because...why would they?

BS - meaning my ass. You want excuses is what you want.

 

Again with the civilization stuff - if there is civilization there is no random PvP. There are armies, police forces, etc. They create safe places where there is economic activity. You want anarchy because there is no significant PvP without anarchy.

 

People settle places for many reasons. Most people don't usually settle in unsafe places. Just the way it is.

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2 hours ago, Splatinum said:

.....

 

TL;DR The game needs conflicts and ways to resolve them, and that'll probably be by fighting cuz NQ doesn't look like it's coming up with anything else.

I am not saying you can't shoot each other - I am just saying you can't shoot anyone just because you decide you should. I am also saying don't lock up content behind a PvP wall. Of course if there is no content I guess this is a moot point and if the PvP crowd have their way there will be very little content - especially out in the areas they wish to control.

 

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31 minutes ago, Habitant said:

.....

 

PVP is essential in the game because there has to be a sinkhole of quantas of course but in the other hand there has to be a kind of bank also (safe place) . So we must take PVP where it has to be at the exact spot on top of high end materials .That is what is going to happen . Thats the meeting point ... And thats fine !!!

SEE YOU THERE !!!

 

Habitant

Habitants Organization

 

 

There is no meeting point - it is still a case of EVE all over again. The big corporations will control the high end ore deposits and sure they will fight over it but that is the way it will be.

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49 minutes ago, Cheith said:

BS - meaning my ass. You want excuses is what you want.

tell me moar about what I want please - you obviously know way better!

 

51 minutes ago, Cheith said:

Again with the civilization stuff - if there is civilization there is no random PvP. There are armies, police forces, etc. They create safe places where there is economic activity. You want anarchy because there is no significant PvP without anarchy.

again, nope. Never said I want anarchy. Maybe stop interpreting my posts and actually start reading them?

 

52 minutes ago, Cheith said:

People settle places for many reasons. Most people don't usually settle in unsafe places. Just the way it is.

RL != a game

 

In a game you have to have some kind of reward for ppl who take risks - Just the way it is

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People make me chuckle when they argue that this game is meant to be a PvP game first and foremost.

 

I have to ask, when you were a fresh player starting, when were you ever taught about PvP?

Remember that starting area? What did they teach you in the shoddy tutorials? Yes, that is correct, building, flying and not much else lol.

 

This game can't and will never be Eve, people have wars in that game because of drama, power tripping and has robust social/org/alliance tools that enable them to do so.

 

PvP is fun in Eve, in which only a SMALL part of the overall population PvP because their industry/NPC missions is fleshed out. PvP is a web browser game in DU. PvP is also not the only factor driving the economy in Eve, a nice chunk is some bozo over reaching in an high level NPC mission and getting sploded, I had my days lol.

Wars are the major economy shifters, but for that you'd have to become Eve like in scale, which ain't happening anytime soon, if DU survives maybe in 5-10 years given they figure out how to manage the spaghetti and are able to grow the pop to Eve levels(unlikely).

 

If in your mind the game has to be about PvP to be successful, then you missed the point entirely.

Either the devs made the wrong game, or you're playing the wrong game.

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