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some help NQ to develop a better way for the game to be player driven game play, so here it is. add a industry unit that does research of schematics, it does not require any resources only time like the talent tree. this idea will allow players to sell schematics and the market will flow between players rather than getting suck into NQ wallet which doesnt get used, because the ore is only getting used to sell to the bots you have and not for building anything by players which is destroying the game. it was a great idea at the time but now you are still losing players every day. back to the research unit, place the schematic for the unit itself on the market so people can buy and build it, allow the unit to see all the schematics available so players can choose to use the schematics or sell them to other players, that way the in game money circulates. allow players to have multiple of these so they can research different things they want to build or sell. obviously have different time scales for each schematic that it can make. Finally the last point and most important point is this allows for NQ to add new items to the game without having to put the new item on all planets and markets for a price, you just add it to the units list of schematics and the players will start researching it.

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the research unit can be like all the rest of the industry where they can be uncommon, advanced, or rare and require more rare ore to build each one and be able to research higher tier schematics, but most importantly it will make the game completely player driven like what JC wants for the game.

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Also, being able to research schematics on our own, a whole research mechanic to improve schematics would be a wiser and more engaging way to implement that mechanic in the first place - not only having bare bone mechanics which barely even feel good like some Half baked bread . Was talked about a lot in alpha, years before schematics were a thing

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Have some research too that changes stats (is NQ even remotely capable of programming that,  or would it be classified as "high development time"). And have schematics with limited runs. Stuff like this would create so much for industry types.

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100% agree this is how they should have been created, would have made it part of the player eco, NOT part of the weird NQ bot army........  Has got to be my biggest issue with NQ, the sheer number of times they remove stuff from the game (or miss opportunities to add stuff) which will improve community cohesion and interactions.  

- ore bots which create short term solo gameplay loops and wiping out the ore reserves, rather than encouraging sales to players

- removing any reason to pvp at all, zero risk game

- removing player salvaging by stopping people claiming destroyed ships

- the complete lack of ingame communication / marketing channels for people to actually advertise the services / businesses they are making

- lac of player trading terminals and dispensers being not really fit for purpose

- lack of clarity about how territories and player made safe zones will work in the future, so we have a chance to plan

 

The problem isnt as such, there is nothing to do in the game, the issue is there is no way to let anyone know what you are doing in game.  For example, we were making a large commercial / shopping complex but it is all actually pointless at the moment, as there is no way in game to get anyone to shop there.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Moosegun said:

100% agree this is how they should have been created, would have made it part of the player eco, NOT part of the weird NQ bot army........  Has got to be my biggest issue with NQ, the sheer number of times they remove stuff from the game (or miss opportunities to add stuff) which will improve community cohesion and interactions.  

- ore bots which create short term solo gameplay loops and wiping out the ore reserves, rather than encouraging sales to players

- removing any reason to pvp at all, zero risk game

- removing player salvaging by stopping people claiming destroyed ships

- the complete lack of ingame communication / marketing channels for people to actually advertise the services / businesses they are making

- lac of player trading terminals and dispensers being not really fit for purpose

- lack of clarity about how territories and player made safe zones will work in the future, so we have a chance to plan

 

The problem isnt as such, there is nothing to do in the game, the issue is there is no way to let anyone know what you are doing in game.  For example, we were making a large commercial / shopping complex but it is all actually pointless at the moment, as there is no way in game to get anyone to shop there.

 

 

So many good points, which really makes you wonder about all those videos in alpha where they talked about a "player driven universe". I see absolutely NONE of that now, and no sign of it on the immediate horizon. But HEY!, we are getting org wallets with 2 rights.  And a mission system (sorry only hauling, rest will come later TBD, lulz).  

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Just now, JohnnyTazer said:

So many good points, which really makes you wonder about all those videos in alpha where they talked about a "player driven universe". I see absolutely NONE of that now, and no sign of it on the immediate horizon. But HEY!, we are getting org wallets with 2 rights.  And a mission system (sorry only hauling, rest will come later TBD, lulz).  

Not sure if you tried the mission system on the PTS test, but it actually looks quite flexible and open ended.  It COULD end up adding a huge amount to the game.  Org wallets are also a much needed addition.  I am not going to make up my mind about either until they are in the game and we can see the uptake. 

The mission system is a massive step in the right direction, as it allow direct communication about products and services in game, something you generally have to go outside of the game for (Discord etc).  So for the first time, if you crash you can requests repair support, if you run out of fuel you can request fuel support, if you want a product and dont want to go to the market, you can order it for a player to deliver it.  It is a piece of the puzzle, and important piece if it works well.  The biggest issue with the mission system though is that is if FAR more complex a task than a standard MMO mission system due to the fact it is player generated.  This means the number of variables involved are far greater than in a traditional NPC driven world.  So it will be difficult to pull off.  I am interested in seeing how they do it.

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1 minute ago, Moosegun said:

Not sure if you tried the mission system on the PTS test, but it actually looks quite flexible and open ended.  It COULD end up adding a huge amount to the game.  Org wallets are also a much needed addition.  I am not going to make up my mind about either until they are in the game and we can see the uptake. 

The mission system is a massive step in the right direction, as it allow direct communication about products and services in game, something you generally have to go outside of the game for (Discord etc).  So for the first time, if you crash you can requests repair support, if you run out of fuel you can request fuel support, if you want a product and dont want to go to the market, you can order it for a player to deliver it.  It is a piece of the puzzle, and important piece if it works well.  The biggest issue with the mission system though is that is if FAR more complex a task than a standard MMO mission system due to the fact it is player generated.  This means the number of variables involved are far greater than in a traditional NPC driven world.  So it will be difficult to pull off.  I am interested in seeing how they do it.

Ya thats all we get though right. "potential".  I get the mission system can be very good, down the road.  But something like an org wallet should be basic and just be a footnote in the patch, not needing its own devblog, especially when its completely bare bones, 2 rights to it, no separate divisions. etc.  

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Just now, JohnnyTazer said:

Ya thats all we get though right. "potential".  I get the mission system can be very good, down the road.  But something like an org wallet should be basic and just be a footnote in the patch, not needing its own devblog, especially when its completely bare bones, 2 rights to it, no separate divisions. etc.  

That all comes back to the other MASSIVE elephant in the room though, the fact that this is packaged as a launched beta.  Personally I think this was NQ's biggest mistake and one that has gone on to cause problems pretty much across the board.  If this was still and alpha, if this was still testing and making the game for launch in the future, the narrative is completely different.  Would be a big thing to do but if i was NQ, I would consider pulling the plug on the launch and reset it back to alpha.  That is a massive call though, and a very difficult one to navigate.

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16 minutes ago, JohnnyTazer said:

So many good points, which really makes you wonder about all those videos in alpha where they talked about a "player driven universe". I see absolutely NONE of that now, and no sign of it on the immediate horizon. But HEY!, we are getting org wallets with 2 rights.  And a mission system (sorry only hauling, rest will come later TBD, lulz).  

It was initial plan (talked about in one of old 2016 interviews):

 

Baillie also shared that there will be possibility to make blueprints of your creation which will enable mass production and potentially a market for your spaceships and stations.

 

JC: The idea is that we would like to have research where you can take apart your item and research it, so that you can get a blueprint which can also be researched, so that after further time (and dependent on how much effort you put in it and energy and so on and so on) you have a chance to make an improvement to the blueprint. And so, you can have a strategy that will have a lot of research in it – though this is just a philosophy of what we would like to do, as the system does not yet exist.

 

Then for some reason it was scrapped. Likely when EVE guys initialy working with JC left company.

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2 minutes ago, Moosegun said:

That all comes back to the other MASSIVE elephant in the room though, the fact that this is packaged as a launched beta.  Personally I think this was NQ's biggest mistake and one that has gone on to cause problems pretty much across the board.  If this was still and alpha, if this was still testing and making the game for launch in the future, the narrative is completely different.  Would be a big thing to do but if i was NQ, I would consider pulling the plug on the launch and reset it back to alpha.  That is a massive call though, and a very difficult one to navigate.

I think the general public would have also recieved it better if they charged 39.99 or something for a beta package.  Not like they are making hand over fist now with their $7 subs anyways, and people would be more ok with it.  "ok ya its early access beta, but one time charge and I can play all the way to release, then sub".

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3 minutes ago, le_souriceau said:

It was initial plan (talked about in one of old 2016 interviews):

 

 

 

Then for some reason it was scrapped. Likely when EVE guys initialy working with JC left company.

Ya seems like that could have been a very indepth game mecahnic for industry, but was instead scrapped for some cheap "here go buy a schematic from bot so 10seconds later do the same thing you were just doing pre 0.23"

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20 hours ago, JohnnyTazer said:

So many good points, which really makes you wonder about all those videos in alpha where they talked about a "player driven universe". I see absolutely NONE of that now, and no sign of it on the immediate horizon. But HEY!, we are getting org wallets with 2 rights.  And a mission system (sorry only hauling, rest will come later TBD, lulz).  

IDK (I don't know) why it's so hard for people to understand the game is in development.

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1 hour ago, fourteen said:

IDK (I don't know) why it's so hard for people to understand the game is in development.

Oh there is no doubt about that, its the direction development is taking that is of concern.

 

Just check the kickstarter page (if you can find it, none of the links I have found in this forum will go to it anymore).  it talks all about how solo players will be a thing.  Not only is that NOT true anymore, but even small orgs like mine can no longer compete.  Had they said, "join a giant org and be a billionaire  so you can rebuild civilization" or something along those lines, I would never have spent so much money to help fund this game. 

 

But I don't want to play "employees in space" or "space market" or "space miner".  Or whatever you want to call it.  It's not going in the direction we were promised either way. I wanted to run my own small org and set up a business. That was going rather well until we were priced out of the economy.

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2 hours ago, Dhara said:

Oh there is no doubt about that, its the direction development is taking that is of concern.

 

Just check the kickstarter page (if you can find it, none of the links I have found in this forum will go to it anymore).  it talks all about how solo players will be a thing.  Not only is that NOT true anymore, but even small orgs like mine can no longer compete.  Had they said, "join a giant org and be a billionaire  so you can rebuild civilization" or something along those lines, I would never have spent so much money to help fund this game. 

 

But I don't want to play "employees in space" or "space market" or "space miner".  Or whatever you want to call it.  It's not going in the direction we were promised either way. I wanted to run my own small org and set up a business. That was going rather well until we were priced out of the economy.

Genuinely interested how you were "priced out of the economy" I am a duo player and not had any problems but not traded as much recently?

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13 minutes ago, joaocordeiro said:

Research industry is a bad idea for balancing, because it creates another way for the ppl with resources to get an advantage on those that dont. 

then....just....balance .....it correctly? if done well, this would have added WAY more interesting gameplay and many more professions to DU in the first place.

 

I mean, they started with the building aspect of the game for alpha - which makes sense considering you need to build stuff for everything else. Then they did a little industry, pvp and markets which is fine too - the order of features implemented is ok imho (the content and quantity of mechanics not so much but that's another topic)

 

And now they did just throw in schematics without any thought and had to backpeddal a lot afterwards.

Following their first implementation roadmap and considering that research gameplay has been in the idea forum for years, it would have been much MUCH better for them to do the research gameplay first and THEN go for the schematics.

 

Same with energy management too (if we can trust what jc said in interviews - which I don't anymore because he talks too much): they want to make it a bonus at first to ease the players into it - they dont want to have ppl suddenly have to deal with energy and nothing working anymore because of a lack of power. Which makes sense.

0.23 was exactly that: crippling everyone at first instead of creating oppertunities for ppl and the game

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20 minutes ago, Lethys said:

then....just....balance .....it correctly

You cant balance a multiplying factor if the multiplication is the problem. 

 

New_advantage=X*old_advantage

This is the model with this idea. 

Because it stacks on top of quanta generation, number of cores, org count number, time in game, etc. 

 

A balanced model would be:

New_advantage=X+old_advantage

But this would require a research model independent from all those factors above. 

Something like a talent tree gaining the same number of points per sec for every one. 

 

Something 100% not an industry unit. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Lethys said:

Same with energy management too (if we can trust what jc said in interviews - which I don't anymore because he talks too much): they want to make it a bonus at first to ease the players into it - they dont want to have ppl suddenly have to deal with energy and nothing working anymore because of a lack of power. Which makes sense.

0.23 was exactly that: crippling everyone at first instead of creating oppertunities for ppl and the game

Don't worry, I've got your back with the timestamp about power management which will be optional: 

 

 

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1 hour ago, joaocordeiro said:

But this would require a research model independent from all those factors above. 

Something like a talent tree gaining the same number of points per sec for every one. 

And That's what I talk about too.

Thats exactly "balancing it correctly"

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53 minutes ago, Lethys said:

And That's what I talk about too.

Thats exactly "balancing it correctly"

I used using "research industry" as "an industry unit, that can be placed in a construct" and will give a certain research advantage multiplied by the number of units in place. 

Like the op suggested.

And that, suggested by the op, im against it. 

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18 hours ago, Moosegun said:

Genuinely interested how you were "priced out of the economy" I am a duo player and not had any problems but not traded as much recently?

Sure, no problem. 

 

We spent millions building our ships and our warp cells factories and getting a decent start to our infrastructure.  We were all mining most of our game play time to pull that off.  We were finally at a point where we could start taking orders after a few months.  It was already so grindy even back then but there was light at the end of the tunnel and some of our more advanced plans were just in the starting stages.  Meanwhile we could barely find a customer who wanted to pay enough for us to profit at that point, so i was already worried how we were actually gonna pull it off.  But we kept truckin' along anyway knowing that at some point we would be able to mine less and deliver more.  We just had to hang in there.

Then they did the schematics thing.  So we were looking at billions more just to be able to get a minimum of industry built to afford fuel, warp cells , repairs & build new ships, weapons, ammo, and the rest of our infrastructure ( distribution centers, space stations, warp beacons, and so on).  We needed industry to cut the costs of buying all of that retail since our profit margin was so low even before the change. Oh yeah...and we also wanted to actually pay our pilots and builders one day, lol. 

 

And at the same time, our potential customers also had to spend millions or more just to get their stuff back up to speed too. So even less chance of making a profit.  IRL I'd say the new cost of industry bankrupted us.  JC simply didn't want small orgs to play like that.  We were all to be consumers and that just wasn't going to work out for us.   Not if it meant mining most of the time we were in the game spending the rest of it at the markets.  Plus, it just wasn't fun anymore.  Everyone but a couple of guys quit almost simultaneously after a week or so of trying to make it work, including me.  It was just too much grinding and not enough fun.

 

 

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