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Why 30K?


SSampson
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Why is 30,000 kph the max speed in space?

 

And there has to be a good reason, after all this game goes for realism over gameplay.

 

In closing "why does god need a starship"

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Maybe it's the maximum speed this tech can handle before weird things start to happen. That's why, for example, space engineers has its limit at 110m/s (if I remember correctly) if you go faster you may start to phase through object etc etc.

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No clue but for slowboating to be a desireable option they need to do one of 3 things.

 

1. Safe zones between planets to allow travelers a place to safely log out and create shipping lanes. Bonus is it narrows where pirates need to look and also gives them multiple chances to catch accelerateing and decelerateing ships. Can also be used as a tie in point for roid fields.

 

2. Raise the speed limit either for everyone (not recomeded) or allow ships with a full set of higher tier engines to go faster then 30K to give rare materials and better engines a useage beyond "fluff"

 

3. Create engine mods you can install in any engine to allow you to push past 30K to various degrees depending on the mix of engines and mods that will require rare resources to craft and/or burn warp cells at a very slow rate. (think 1 cell per minute of active acceleration past 30k) Which also gives a reason for people to want rare resources.

 

The current "up to 8 hours in one go" slowboating method is moronic and is likely a HUGE part of why space is so damn abandonded and everyone who has anything like a job or family just warps.

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7 hours ago, Arctic_fox said:

No clue but for slowboating to be a desireable option they need to do one of 3 things.

 

1. Safe zones between planets to allow travelers a place to safely log out and create shipping lanes. Bonus is it narrows where pirates need to look and also gives them multiple chances to catch accelerateing and decelerateing ships. Can also be used as a tie in point for roid fields.

 

2. Raise the speed limit either for everyone (not recomeded) or allow ships with a full set of higher tier engines to go faster then 30K to give rare materials and better engines a useage beyond "fluff"

 

3. Create engine mods you can install in any engine to allow you to push past 30K to various degrees depending on the mix of engines and mods that will require rare resources to craft and/or burn warp cells at a very slow rate. (think 1 cell per minute of active acceleration past 30k) Which also gives a reason for people to want rare resources.

 

The current "up to 8 hours in one go" slowboating method is moronic and is likely a HUGE part of why space is so damn abandonded and everyone who has anything like a job or family just warps.

X5

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I originally thought it was so pirates could catch people but its probably as fra119 says.  The game probably has issues accurately placing us in space if we go faster, which would also be an issue for weapon targeting, I guess.

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2 hours ago, Underhook said:

I originally thought it was so pirates could catch people but its probably as fra119 says.  The game probably has issues accurately placing us in space if we go faster, which would also be an issue for weapon targeting, I guess.

The game currently have issues placing us accurately in space at 30,000 km/h.
The PvP encounters on max speed are so bugged, you can not even imagine. Disappearing ships, teleporting ships, dead cores continue to fly at 30k km/h, etc.
If they will increase the speed limit it will be even more bugged

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2 hours ago, Bobbie said:

Because our movement in space is actual, it's not a trick like for example Elite Dangerous, or any other game for that matter. It is fully simulated.

 

This space is huge, crosses many server boundaries, and needs to take the actual environment into account as you whizz through it. It's amazing this speed is even possible. Imagine if you could fly at that speed through atmo without taking damage. Think the servers could keep up then? Think your pc could keep up? They can't even keep up at 1k let alone 30k.

As far as I can tell, the movement in Elite Dangerous is just as actual (not my word) as it is in DU.  Elite Dangerous is orders of magnitude larger and you can travel at much faster speeds.  The difference as far as I can tell it that Elite renders your 1 ship where as DU renders the many parts of the ship.  

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Everything is balanced to fit the micro universe we would call a solar system that we are currently trapped in. It has a lot to do with limitations of the engine and nature of the voxels and rendering the millions of holes and point cloud data. Essentially a universe is a server and we can barely fill one so there is no need for them to add more. You would think if it were easy then they would be banging out new solar systems to form at least a galaxy or that there would be plenty to explore in other solar systems to at least give us a semi galaxy to play in. It should be as easy as using their world generation tools to spit out planets, run a resource generation script, maybe drop some markets or districts, a jump gate connection via circa 1999 UO/EQ zoning tech and create a network of pathways resembling a galaxy with lots of places to colonize since they are empty.

 

Yet NQ is waiting on developing alien npcs, tech, and all that just to add 1 new solar system as it buys them time to develop content when it should be all made into a script. Since they cant/wont do that they cap your speed, stats, and potential becuase they wont make the galaxy larger. If they did uncap the speed there would be no need for warp which is their only way to drain money for the luxury of fast travel when you would think at this point would be pretty much standard means to travel. It would simply make the game feel incredibly small and so they limit everything because there is no real content to hide that fact.

 

Also who are the PvPers going to gank if you could get out into open space and they actually had to hunt for people rather than sitting in lanes waiting for unsuspecting players or the insane braking times for even a handful of full containers? Where would the huge war JC has wet dreams about each night come crom if there was actual room?

 

I dont know where the idea of dual univers comes from but the micro solar system approach aint going to cut it forever.

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21 minutes ago, Bobbie said:

Elite Dangerous hides the fact that it's all instanced. Whenever you start or stop supercruise, that's a loading screen. It's not one big seamless space like in DU, and it doesn't have everyone and everything in a single instance. DU does, that's the whole point of NQ's Continuous Single Shard Server tech.

In ED there are two single instances for every system - one for normal flight and one for supercruise. Switching between the flight modes also switches the instance. That's what you see as loading screen. However, ship movements are fully simulated in both instances.

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Nonononononono, no.

ED or EvE have nothing in common with DU if we talk about how the game is built. If we want to make comparisons we need to take games like Minecraft, or space engineers, because those are the closest relatives to DU.

 

In ED you don't fly in an universe where every voxel has to be constantly calculated for everyone. You don't pilot ships made of thousands of elements which are actually separated entities with their own effect and that, again, need to be calculated constantly.

 

We can't go above 30k 90% because this tech can't handle higher velocities, but 30k is already a miracle, trust me.

And btw another solar system means NQ has to literally double their servers, which won't happen if the playerbase doesn't increase, and it doesn't look like it's increasing to me.

 

 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Fra119 said:

ED or EvE have nothing in common with DU if we talk about how the game is built. If we want to make comparisons we need to take games like Minecraft, or space engineers, because those are the closest relatives to DU.

That's off-topic. This thread is about the reason for the speed limit and that's not limited to voxel based games. It is a common problem for all time-critical interactions in online games.

 

There is in fact no better comparison than ED because it shows when the speed limit is required and when not. In normal flight mode there are direct interactions between players that need to be handled in real-time. Due to the technical limitation of online games this is not possible if the relative speed is too high. Thus there must be a speed limit in this flight mode. In supercruise there are no such direct interactions. PvP is limited to frame shift interdiction which is not time-critical. Thus, there is no speed limit required in this flight mode.

 

In DU there are always time-critical interactions and the engine can't even handle them at low speeds. Crashing ships due to static constructs or terrain spawning too late is quite common. Thus there must be a speed limit. The 30 km/s is most probably a compromise between too long space travels and too common desync problems in PvP.

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I wouldn't say DU goes for realism at all for technical and gameplay reasons. The solar system and planet scale are shrunk way down, planets don't rotate or orbit the star, there is no physical star, and the lighting is not realistic.

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Anyone here old enough to remember Freelancer? You could slow boat between  stations if you chose, but to get there quickly you used the space lanes. That is how they dealt with times between stops. And the lanes could be disrupted by people and if you weren't paying attention, pvp ensued.

 

As long as your ship is in the space lane, DU could bypass many calculations. Then the only thing the game has to watch for would be... Is the next section functioning? Yes... Passthrough everything and everyone no collisions. No.... Slow speed down, restart all your checks.

 

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Spacelanes would solve that being the only place you could move that fast. Space lanes are an inline series of gates or hoops between two worlds.

 

Maybe this will explain it better :

 

 

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21 hours ago, Bobbie said:

Elite Dangerous hides the fact that it's all instanced. Whenever you start or stop supercruise, that's a loading screen. It's not one big seamless space like in DU, and it doesn't have everyone and everything in a single instance. DU does, that's the whole point of NQ's Continuous Single Shard Server tech.

OK, I understand what you mean now.  Space is continuous in ED though and it is possible to fly across the galaxy in real time (given enough fuel).  So, you could say space is seamless.  The different travel modes are not seamless though.

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41 minutes ago, Underhook said:

Space is continuous in ED though and it is possible to fly across the galaxy in real time (given enough fuel).

No, you can't. You can seamlessly fly between stars, planets and moons within a single system but not between systems.

 

43 minutes ago, Underhook said:

So, you could say space is seamless.  The different travel modes are not seamless though.

Yes, switching between travel modes changes the instance. But normal flight and supercruise are seamless. The original concept for fast travel in ED was similar to the warp drive in DU: auto piloting between POIs. But that has been rejected by the player base.

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34 minutes ago, Bobbie said:

Right but the supercruise space has almost nothing going on except some points of interest markers.

And other players also beeing in supercruise. What else would you expect?

34 minutes ago, Bobbie said:

There's barely any simulation needed for it and possibly not even very detailed flight mechanics.

It is a fully simulated flight model including gravity. There is just no direct interaction with other players or environment. But that's the very purpose of this flight mode - to avoid everything that makes troulble at high speeds.

34 minutes ago, Bobbie said:

Technically you don't even know that you're actually going as fast as it says.

Technically you actually don't go as fast as it says. The frame-shift drive scales everything down - both, according to the lore and in the in-game physics.This way the game engine can handle a much higher speed with the same numerical precision.

34 minutes ago, Bobbie said:

It's just a rendering trick, this is what I mean by trick.

I'll tell you a secret: Everything is a trick in computer games. There is no real universe in your computer. It's just an illusion.

34 minutes ago, Bobbie said:

This is what makes DU different, but that also means you're necessarily going to encounter the limits to what can actually be simulated without tricks.

Do you really think there is a full simulation running during warp in DU?

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9 minutes ago, Bobbie said:

There you go, thank you. And that's exactly what's different about DU with regular travel up to 30k (we're not talking about warp here). There is direct interaction with everything at every scale at any speed, that's why there has to be a speed limit.

No there is no difference. With regular travel there is direct interaction with everything at every scale at any speed in both, ED and DU. That's why there has to be a speed limit. With fast travel (warp in DU or supercruise in ED) there is no direct interaction in both, ED and DU. That is something that all online space sims have in common (due to the same technical limitations).

15 minutes ago, Bobbie said:

Voila, this is my point.

But DU is even worse in this regard. ED has full scale systems at least in normal flight mode. In DU they are scaled down all the time and don't even have orbital mechanics.

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