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PVP possible in "Safe Zone"


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Hello everybody, 

 

Today i woke up, and learned some lesson in "Hard way" 

 

I was flying around on Alioth with my Medium sized ship, that had some nice L sized parts on it, some of them were Military grade, + territory scanner. I was scanning some unclaimed territories for ores, and found 

3000 KT of Hematite, landed my ship there and started to mine on that spot, I mined for an hour or so, and got only 100k of that hematite in my ships container. It was late, and I thought I am gonna go to sleep and then return on morning to continue my findings to that big Chunk :) 

 

Woke up, and territory was claimed by another player, also noticed that my ship wasn`t there anymore, I thought hmm strange... :) At the end i checked Discord some help, and in notifications window i saw that my ship was destroyed by another player.

 

So, what happened is, I left my ship on unclaimed territory and went OFF , then some other player found me, Claimed that territory while i was offline, then using Maneuver tool moved my ship and placed it on another Dynamic Construct, which on this case was L core sized ship, took it to space outside of safezone, attacked it and destroyed it, and claimed it, at the end they got all my parts from ship. 10 or 12 Vertical booster L, 8 atmo engines L, 2 Military grade Atmo engines L, 4 Space Engines L. 1 Space Engine XL, Large Container with 100k of hematite in there and Territory scanner.

 

What do you think ? Is it and exploit ? 

 

Personally I think that`s and amazing stuff to do in this game, never ever have thinked about this one. Even i learn`d it in hard way and the loss was pretty painful.

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Hey folks,   first of all: don't tell others their statement is "bullshit" or that their assumption is "stupid" - this doesn't help anyone. Keep it nice and let the other party know that you

Hello everybody,    Today i woke up, and learned some lesson in "Hard way"    I was flying around on Alioth with my Medium sized ship, that had some nice L sized parts on it, some

Correct, but there are some minor issues when the child construct doesn’t have landing gear to “attach itself” to the parent construct. So far: -Using the maneuvering tool to place a smaller

This also happened to me.
Got tired, left ship.. logged on the next morning to find that i couldn't mine.
Even tho another player was in his/the hex he seemed busy and there were many trees blocking the physical view of my ship tho it was surely visible on the map.

I got lucky, ship was still there.
I believe they should be able to maneuvre your ship but the ships perms should, prevent them from doing such a thing.
If we want to dock our ships, there are other ways. to code the perms. Private means private.
How about an `allow docking` toggle that evolves into `with org / with public` somewhere down the line.

edit (the following replies and pages occured before this statement was released)
<adding this to page one to reach a greater audience>

  • Parenting Ships - Dragged to PVP Space: This is a hot topic and one we wish to be very clear on. Intentionally parenting any construct without permission of the owner is not intended for game play. A fix has been rolled out that will address the ability to parent constructs together via the maneuver tool. As we have not previously clarified this point, we will not retroactively punish this abuse, as of this moment forward abusing similar bugs/tools to replicate this maneuver in its current state can result in disciplinary actions on an account. [Not Allowed]
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What is "interesting" to me is that this is a rather serious exploit and NQ has been aware of it for at least several days with no comment or action from their end either way.

 

I say it is an exploit since the mechanic used here is not intended to be used as such and while I'd agree with the inevitable "PVP" players coming in and saying that you should not park on an unclaimed territory (which is fair enough), this is also a safe zone and that is where this becomes an exploit.

 

IMO the ability to move another players construct on your tile should only apply to constructs that are parked _once_ you claimed the tile, and not _as_ you claim it. While I understand that at this stage of development a lot of mechanics may not be complete, there are so many half done features and mechanics that the amount of technical debt this creates wil take NQ months to work through. Many things are "quick fixed" (or not even fixed, just the symptoms worked around) with hopefully the intent to come back later and properly resolve an issue but the mountain of to-do items is getting bigger and bigger while NQ is already looking beyond these which leads me to fear we'll be left with these for a long time to come.
 

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37 minutes ago, JoniAdama said:

Hello everybody, 

 

Today i woke up, and learned some lesson in "Hard way" 

 

I was flying around on Alioth with my Medium sized ship, that had some nice L sized parts on it, some of them were Military grade, + territory scanner. I was scanning some unclaimed territories for ores, and found 

3000 KT of Hematite, landed my ship there and started to mine on that spot, I mined for an hour or so, and got only 100k of that hematite in my ships container. It was late, and I thought I am gonna go to sleep and then return on morning to continue my findings to that big Chunk :) 

 

Woke up, and territory was claimed by another player, also noticed that my ship wasn`t there anymore, I thought hmm strange... :) At the end i checked Discord some help, and in notifications window i saw that my ship was destroyed by another player.

 

So, what happened is, I left my ship on unclaimed territory and went OFF , then some other player found me, Claimed that territory while i was offline, then using Maneuver tool moved my ship and placed it on another Dynamic Construct, which on this case was L core sized ship, took it to space outside of safezone, attacked it and destroyed it, and claimed it, at the end they got all my parts from ship. 10 or 12 Vertical booster L, 8 atmo engines L, 2 Military grade Atmo engines L, 4 Space Engines L. 1 Space Engine XL, Large Container with 100k of hematite in there and Territory scanner.

 

What do you think ? Is it and exploit ? 

 

Personally I think that`s and amazing stuff to do in this game, never ever have thinked about this one. Even i learn`d it in hard way and the loss was pretty painful.

I would go to discord and ask NQ stuff for clarification on that. If this is an exploit - and I can't see a way that this is NOT an exploit - that player/org should face consequences of using it. 

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35 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

What is "interesting" to me is that this is a rather serious exploit and NQ has been aware of it for at least several days with no comment or action from their end either way.

 

I say it is an exploit since the mechanic used here is not intended to be used as such and while I'd agree with the inevitable "PVP" players coming in and saying that you should not park on an unclaimed territory (which is fair enough), this is also a safe zone and that is where this becomes an exploit.

 

IMO the ability to move another players construct on your tile should only apply to constructs that are parked _once_ you claimed the tile, and not _as_ you claim it. While I understand that at this stage of development a lot of mechanics may not be complete, there are so many half done features and mechanics that the amount of technical debt this creates wil take NQ months to work through. Many things are "quick fixed" (or not even fixed, just the symptoms worked around) with hopefully the intent to come back later and properly resolve an issue but the mountain of to-do items is getting bigger and bigger while NQ is already looking beyond these which leads me to fear we'll be left with these for a long time to come.
 

This exploit has been reported along side 3 more variations of it that allow players to steal other ships and even destroy your static core to steal your stuff, even on a claimed Sanctuary Moon probably close to a month now. In the case of the OP, they claim the tile to maneuver his ship most likely cause methods 1, 2 and 3 didn’t work out.

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Well to be honest, how can this be and exploit, you have already 2 ingame mechanics to prevent this from happening.

 

1) Just take a territory unit with you, claim that territory, and you can mine there for week, then just take off territory unit and go to the next spot.

2) Just build your ship on L size dynamic core , and then nobody could dock your ship on another core. 

 

I think this is super interesting content, will try it out, sounds super fun and interesting to do. Ofcourse there will be some guy that looses hes ship, but hey just have mechanics to avoid that, just think with your head. :) I would like NQ to never change this, it just makes this game more challenging and forcing you to plan out your mining operations more carefully.  Like in EVE Online, you think you are safe in hi-sec, but that actually not like that, people can gank you anyways. Super cool mechanics perfectly done NQ !!!

 

 

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1 minute ago, JoniAdama said:

Well to be honest, how can this be and exploit, you have already 2 ingame mechanics to prevent this from happening.

 

The exploit is that this is possible in a safe zone where PVP is not supposed to be possible/occur.

The problem is NQ has rushed to open beta because they needed the funding and thus have left so many gaping holes in the game mechanics that we will be seeing exploits like these (and worse) for some time to come.

 

Logging a ticket is your only recourse but NQ is at least three weeks behind on tickets

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2 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

The exploit is that this is possible in a safe zone where PVP is not supposed to be possible/occur.

The problem is NQ has rushed to open beta because they needed the funding and thus have left so many gaping holes in the game mechanics that we will be seeing exploits like these (and worse) for some time to come.

 

Logging a ticket is your only recourse but NQ is at least three weeks behind on tickets

Well technically PVP is not happening in a safe zone, your ship is just taken outside of safe zone and then the crime happens, super exciting about this. Amazing stuff !

I Will never submit ticket for this.. I am more then happy to loose my ship like this just to find out that this is possible. 

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1 minute ago, JoniAdama said:

Well technically PVP is not happening in a safe zone, your ship is just taken outside of safe zone and then the crime happens, super exciting about this. Amazing stuff !

Sorry, no, this is maybe according to "letter of law", but definitely not spirit of law. Safe zone was designed to be safe, not design to trick people into false safety feeling. 

Thats an unintended consequence, not amazing stuff. 

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2 minutes ago, Elrood said:

Sorry, no, this is maybe according to "letter of law", but definitely not spirit of law. Safe zone was designed to be safe, not design to trick people into false safety feeling. 

Thats an unintended consequence, not amazing stuff. 

I am pretty sure that Safe Zone is still safe zone, if you know how to use it as Safe Zone. That is mighty and dangerous reality of an True Sandbox !

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5 minutes ago, JoniAdama said:

I am pretty sure that Safe Zone is still safe zone, if you know how to use it as Safe Zone. That is mighty and dangerous reality of an True Sandbox !

Bullshit - if i need to logout in safe zone with newbie ship, this newbie ship has to be safe. Other wise this is newb trolling zone, not safe zone. 

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32 minutes ago, JoniAdama said:

Well technically PVP is not happening in a safe zone

 

Except it is, the action of taking someone else's property _is_ PVP. It is an exploit and needs to be called out as such, so that these actions can have repercussions and then the loophole fixed.

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1 hour ago, JoniAdama said:

Well technically PVP is not happening in a safe zone, your ship is just taken outside of safe zone and then the crime happens, super exciting about this. Amazing stuff !

I Will never submit ticket for this.. I am more then happy to loose my ship like this just to find out that this is possible. 

You are wrong, the other variations of this exploit allows people to actually do the destroying right on the spot, like I said, they used a variation of the exploit to take his ship to the PvP zone cause they couldn’t do it in the tile itself.

Which ever way you want to twist this and go do it yourself for the kicks,  don’t do it, they have already banned 1 person for this. It’s an abused and exploit of a game mechanic that shouldn’t be happening which the only thing for sure is doing it’s delaying the progression of the game, like the devs working on real PvP mechanics instead of fixing shit people come up with.

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1 minute ago, Randazzo said:

Same thing happened to a streamer, live, over a week ago. Even with video proof and a ticket logged, GMs were not able to do anything about it.

 

Always keep a blueprint copy of your ship somewhere safe.

It may have been one of first occurrence - I wouldn't be surprised if they already had policy to deal with that stuff now. 

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While I always admire humans’ ingenuity at circumventing laws, taxes, surcharges, rules and regulations, that is clearly trolling for the sake of trolling.
 

placing a TCU for the sole purpose of carting a construct to the PVP zone is not cheating as such, but it’s clearly bending the rules in a way NQ did not intend or they would have put disclaimers on their safe zone definitions....

 

 As such, it is exploiting a loophole in the ingame logic that should protect against this, pretty much by definition. 
 

while I think severe punitive action again the players doing this might be considered draconian, since it’s not -technically- breaking the EULA, I think, if NQ truly did not forsee/desire this method of... capital gain... they should at least provide the “victim” with remuneration or a magic blueprint to reimburse them and create a temporary patch to at least prevent removal of incumbent constructs until they can consider a proper mechanism...

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2 minutes ago, GraXXoR said:

while I think severe punitive action again the players doing this might be considered draconian, since it’s not -technically- breaking the EULA

There is clear policy about exploiting - announced more than week ago. Not EULA but part of established game rules. 

They use duping items as main example, but I doubt it is any stretch to assume this exploit is affected by the same rules.
 

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8 minutes ago, Elrood said:

There is clear policy about exploiting - announced more than week ago. Not EULA but part of established game rules. 

They use duping items as main example, but I doubt it is any stretch to assume this exploit is affected by the same rules.
 

In that case, anyone who F4s to stop their ship should also be banned?

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but in all seriousness, duping stuff and using actual in game tools to do exactly what they are defined as  (even if not what they were intended for) is a completely different level. 
 

you can move things on your tile...

that is known to all

 

you can dock small cores on larger cores...

that is known to all

 

 

you can fly from the safe zone to the PvP zone...

 

that is known to all
 

You can destroy ships in the PvP zone..

 

that is known to all

 

ergo this is not an actual engine/timing/glitch.  This is straight up use of the rules as provided. 
 

now the dupe bug (apparently) uses actual coding bugs - I’ll be honest I have no idea how anyone found it. Maybe a race condition or -like glitching four XL engines over each other on a construct to save space- is an error in the coding rather than the rules of the tools provided. 
 

Still, it’s all semantics and doing this IS against the spirit of safe zone... 

 

and to quote from Rick and Marty “in bird language, this is considered a dick move.”

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54 minutes ago, Iorail said:

You are wrong, the other variations of this exploit allows people to actually do the destroying right on the spot, like I said, they used a variation of the exploit to take his ship to the PvP zone cause they couldn’t do it in the tile itself.

Which ever way you want to twist this and go do it yourself for the kicks,  don’t do it, they have already banned 1 person for this. It’s an abused and exploit of a game mechanic that shouldn’t be happening which the only thing for sure is doing it’s delaying the progression of the game, like the devs working on real PvP mechanics instead of fixing shit people come up with.

I really can`t believe you are saying such a bullshit. "Delaying the progression of the game" lol dude, if we don`t do stuff like this, that will never be fixed, it`s a part of development... and you are saying they banned 1 person for that. I need official announcement from NQ about this issue, otherwise i don`t believe this is exploit !

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