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MaximusFireFight

The Only Down Side I See, The AI

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When I first saw a video about this game, I was absolutely crazy. I felt immense excitement and thrill at the idea of such an immersive space business. But I had one issue nagging at my mind. I love..LOVE the player interaction, but there does not seem to be any other way to play it. It seems you HAVE to rely on others to grow any larger than a small business. There should be AI that can manufacture, defend and complete tasks on their own. I want to be a one man empire, or at least only have a small knit group of trusted allies. I quite honestly hate the idea of having to rely on an army of other players for several reasons. While AI have no other mind but to serve, players are ALWAYS looking to grow and rise in the chain of command. Betrayal is 90% a possibility, and 100% possibility if given enough time. Every user is only loyal to themselves, and while I can understand it, I am also frustrated at this downside. I might be wrong? Maybe there are ways you can run an empire with only AI? I also understand this may take away from the fun, but everyone is different. I am sure there are people here that are like me, who like going slow paced, and running a business. In my point of view, having to worry about being betrayed by other and looking over your shoulder or trying to command hundreds of other players..it is impossible. I am not criticizing the player to player format..not at all. I just wish there were more options for people like me, who want a more AI running business. Of course I still want to interact with other players and deal with others and go to war with others, I just want an empire to myself. If there are advanced AI and this option is available, please by all means set me straight.

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Theres no such thing as a true one man empire. Sure u can do stuff alone but to be a force to be reckoned with will take hundreds/thousands of friends working together for comon goals.  ;)

 

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12 hours ago, MaximusFireFight said:

Of course I still want to interact with other players and deal with others and go to war with others, I just want an empire to myself

You can do it already - have an empire on your own with only 5 ppl or so. It just won't be defendable because everyone can just raid you, but you can try....

 

You seem to think that everyone should be able to do everything and that solo players who don't want to bother with politics, betrayal, emergent gameplay, logistics and socializing should get special treatment to be on equal ground with a larger org. Guess what, that won't happen.

You can play in a smaller group. You can play solo. But you CAN'T get the same benefits as larger orgs do. That's the thing with DU: make friends, socialize, get to know ppl and think of a RDMS structure that suits you while at the same time makes it very hard to betray. If you don't want to bother with strangers and big orgs, that's fine. But don't expect to be on equal grounds with them if you don't want to invest as much time and brain in the structure as they do.

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You can't run an empire solo, no-one can. You can be a solo person within an empire just fine though, in fact for an empire those who operate alone are usually of much importance.

 

I'd venture to go as far as make the claim that those who would like to run a solo empire actually are dependent on those who like to work alone within said empire for their very survival.

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8 hours ago, Lethys said:

You seem to think that everyone should be able to do everything and that solo players who don't want to bother with politics, betrayal, emergent gameplay, logistics and socializing should get special treatment to be on equal ground with a larger org. Guess what, that won't happen.

To be fair, it should be fairly easy to disrupt an industry to keep large, established orgs on their toes and to keep things from getting stagnant.

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Why?

 

If a larger org puts in the effort and manages their member's work to the point they build a strong industry that captures a good portion of the market how would a small group or individuals having the ability to disrupt this with little to no effort be good?

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21 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

Why?

 

If a larger org puts in the effort and manages their member's work to the point they build a strong industry that captures a good portion of the market how would a small group or individuals having the ability to disrupt this with little to no effort be good?

It keeps the market competitive and prevents large organizations from getting complacent.

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No, it does not. It destroys the value of effort and doing the work. What is the point of spending time to get to a position where you can reap the benefits of the work when Joe Bloggs can come around and just push your work down the toilet.

 

Games like DU will give you back what you put in, there's no free lunch here and if you want to be better than the other guy you'll have to work for it.

 

 

Small groups with smart members who manage to capitalize on what they know best is what will keep the bigger orgs sharp and focussed. That is not the same as ' it should be fairly easy to disrupt an industry'. Disrupting an industry does not come easy and is not simple to achieve. Not in RL and it certainly should not be in DU or any relevant game.

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8 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

No, it does not. It destroys the value of effort and doing the work. What is the point of spending time to get to a position where you can reap the benefits of the work when Joe Bloggs can come around and just push your work down the toilet.

 

Games like DU will give you back what you put in, there's no free lunch here and if you want to be better than the other guy you'll have to work for it.

 

 

Small groups with smart members who manage to capitalize on what they know best is what will keep the bigger orgs sharp and focussed. That is not the same as ' it should be fairly easy to disrupt an industry'. Disrupting an industry does not come easy and is not simple to achieve. Not in RL and it certainly should not be in DU or any relevant game.

Monopolies are bad and irl we have antitrust/competition laws to ensure that the market stays competitive. In DU however, it seems that companies will be their own nations, so there needs to be a game mechanic to prevent monopolies from controlling the game. Whats the point of playing the game if you know you are going to get squashed like a fly by the big guys?

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There is such a mechanic, organize, manage and work hard to become better or at least be able to be better at crucial areas.

Ah, and I feel you are overthinking this by quite a bit.

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Since the game still takes a while to appear, you can start by asking your real life friends if they want to play with you in DU , if you are so afraid of being betrayed.  Since we are in an mmorpg, and mmorpg does not stand for many men online roleplay as girl, but for living together in a single world where every action has an influence, I am very proud that NQ will establish a civilization with all players.

 

It doesn't matter if you play alone, as a small or large organization. Who invests more and organizes himself better, gets also the larger yield at the end. And this is the case with every mmorpg where you pay money monthly.

 

It doesn't take AI to run a business because it takes commitment to your customers. Build a reputation, present yourself as trustworthy and make the best prices. Large organizations will usually always outdo you. Because if 100 people have the same thought and agree on a date across all time zones, then no AI can save you from having an advantage.

 

Yes, it can be, that a group of 600(!) men have the numerical advantage, but they are also targeted by the other Orgs, because they will not accept such a monopoly position, because they are onions and because you can break something like that with coordination. It's basically like cutting an onion, slice by slice. Everything can be outlived and things can and always will change in an mmorpg.

 

Otherwise you wouldn't need groups, organisations, you wouldn't have to play together, you wouldn't have to talk or act with each other or you wouldn't even have to make an mmorpg out of it. Exactly what happened with SWTOR and you see where it is now.

 

Beautiful new civilization... *sarcasm *

 

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23 hours ago, MaximusFireFight said:

There should be AI that can manufacture, defend and complete tasks on their own.

Manufacture- I believe there are expansive machines capeable of producing stuff automatically.

Defend- Automated base defense turrets are being looked into. Alternatively, you can build in safezones. 

Complete Tasks- Lua scripting with extensive(but not all-powerful) features are planned with things like wireless networking, interacting with elements, and moving from a to b.

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18 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

There is such a mechanic, organize, manage and work hard to become better or at least be able to be better at crucial areas.

Ah, and I feel you are overthinking this by quite a bit.

'

All it took for the USSR's pipeline dream to go bust was one program and one employee to bring the program. Remember the explosion seen from space? Canadians and Americans at work.

 

Reality makes it easy for exposed industry to be disrupted. That's why ports are well within defensible areas and private/government soldiers are always onboard cargo and oil ships. If Exxon's security scope was limited to its offices and land assets, pirates would have a field day and the company would fold. Having a large memberbase, a large security detail, a large industrial facility isn't what matters to saboteurs. All they care about is where the weak spots are and how they can exploit them. 

 

Well, the reply I quoted was edited. ;)  
But, I'm glad you got the idea. What matters is not how much goes into defending something, but how well it is defended in areas that matter. One man empires, as you have rightly pointed out - fail terribly at that. 

 

Cheers.

'

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On 5/22/2018 at 2:34 AM, Lethys said:

You can do it already - have an empire on your own with only 5 ppl or so. It just won't be defendable because everyone can just raid you, but you can try....

 

You seem to think that everyone should be able to do everything and that solo players who don't want to bother with politics, betrayal, emergent gameplay, logistics and socializing should get special treatment to be on equal ground with a larger org. Guess what, that won't happen.

You can play in a smaller group. You can play solo. But you CAN'T get the same benefits as larger orgs do. That's the thing with DU: make friends, socialize, get to know ppl and think of a RDMS structure that suits you while at the same time makes it very hard to betray. If you don't want to bother with strangers and big orgs, that's fine. But don't expect to be on equal grounds with them if you don't want to invest as much time and brain in the structure as they do.

You are right. I like the way you put this, even if you were kinda rude and brash, and even though some points are a bit rough round the edges. Hmm. I would be more willing to participate in a large empire if there was a tight system that would help... dissuade betrayal I suppose. They still got a lot to work out. I am excited to see the progress. 

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6 hours ago, MaximusFireFight said:

You are right. I like the way you put this, even if you were kinda rude and brash, and even though some points are a bit rough round the edges. Hmm. I would be more willing to participate in a large empire if there was a tight system that would help... dissuade betrayal I suppose. They still got a lot to work out. I am excited to see the progress. 

I hate ppl who can't say what's on their mind so I might sound rude at times lmao

 

We have to wait for the full RDMS system to See where this goes, Bit I'm confident that you can create a Safe system with it

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There is no protection against "betrayal".

 

Sorry, rephrasing: There is no guaranteed ultimate protection against it reaching 100 percent.

 

If or once you start to publicly recruit (strangers) with no deeper 'real' connection to you (in reality, like true friendship or simply knowing that person well enough) you are at an abstract risk for countless reasons. It does not have to happen (to you specifically), but it can. Even if not, someone else could betray you, such as 'allies', clients, etc. Non-members basically.

 

With that in mind, countless people still take that risk and have a great time. Maybe you should not worry about it too much and / or think of ways to lower the risk?

 

In the end, your preferences or expectations are yours. I can hardly say "This is wrong" like I could hardly blame someone for liking a certain music or food, even though I may not share the same opinion or rather preference.

 

But, eh, I'm saying you could have a vastly better time or have more opportunities if you perhaps change the expectations a bit.

 

And in the end, great rewards or profit usually only come with or after taking certain risks. Life is full of abstract or real risks. We have to learn to assess or take them, all in all, I think.

 

 

 

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On 22/05/2018 at 2:23 PM, CoreVamore said:

Theres no such thing as a true one man empire. Sure u can do stuff alone but to be a force to be reckoned with will take hundreds/thousands of friends working together for comon goals.  ;)

 

This is an interesting point, however I think replacing friends with "group members" would make your statement more accurate... It is very rare for people to have more than double digit real friends or even close associates without using the "hello, friend" or "facebook friend" definitions.

 

I suspect that since this game is likely to follow "standard" hunter-gatherer mentality for at least a couple of years, a typical "band → group → community → nation" layered hierarchy will develop with later conglomeration under larger structures.

 

At first, though, the vast majority of effective bands of players will tend to comprise of a handful or two of players.

 

Players will either gather for protection to perform single tasks efficiently and safely and work together with other such bands to form a fully fledged community or they could even  at first just perform complementary tasks to create a mini community.

 

Specialised groups offering particular services would need to cooperate to form larger "communities" which may or may not be part of even larger "nations."

 

The real problem with cooperation is when it ends... Who gets what? That's when communities turn ash or self destruct... 

 

The current laughably stilted political structure we have at the moment with orgs vying for of 1000s of amorphous members will simply fragment, disband, reform and transform once DU goes live under their own lack of structure and new structures form organically from and around them. Groups (small orgs) with clear, simple goals and a solid agenda will thrive and grow, however.

 

TL:DR;  DU seems to be EVE with a player avatar so group play will be almost mandatory.

Having said all that, though, DU is still big enough to support freelancers, sole entities and hermits. But it will be unlikely for them to become "empires" of any renown without opening their doors to others.

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On ‎24‎-‎5‎-‎2018 at 8:29 AM, Warden said:

If or once you start to publicly recruit (strangers) with no deeper 'real' connection to you (in reality, like true friendship or simply knowing that person well enough) you are at an abstract risk for countless reasons. It does not have to happen (to you specifically), but it can. Even if not, someone else could betray you, such as 'allies', clients, etc. Non-members basically.

 

Keep in mind that there are plenty of real life friends that would betray the hell out of you in a game even if just for the lolz.

Plenty of games are based on that. (Poker, Diplomacy, hide & seek are the first 3 that spring to mind.)

Edited by Taniya
Learning to count ;)

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Ironically, when writing the post, I even thought about adding something akin to: "... and even then there is no gurantee" but I think in most classic deep or real friendships the possibility or abstract risk of being seriously back stabbed is very very low to almost non-existant by default at least.

 

Some pranks or jokes? Sure.  Hard betrayal with lots of damage that would sour the relationship? Why would you do that if you intend to play the game and achieve things together?

 

In short, not saying it can never happen but in the given predictions it would have the least risks or likelihoods in my book.

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Just now, Alethion said:

The old adage always rings true. Keep your friends close and your enemies... closer

Or just kill them all! I'm not paranoid at all! And stop following me! :o:P

 

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The way I see it is even if we did have such an AI available, the big orgs will also be able to use it.  So even though you can run a larger business (or empire) than before, so will the larger orgs.  You would be in the exact same place. 

 

But you CAN be rich and live comfortably on your own, if you want. Just come up with an idea, product, service, etc that is so good that everyone has to have it.  Then you don't have to sell everything like a general store would.  Specialize on one special thing and you can keep up with the big guys if you want.

 

I still bet you'll have to hire security.  But you don't necessarily have to buddy up to them or let them in on your secrets  Just hire a team, let them do their thing and pay them well.

 

Good luck :-)

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I generally think that big organizations usually, by default, have the manpower advantage and can generate wealth or certain products better, if we assume the average member contributes. Thus you have more people contribute, logically, compared to smaller groups.

 

In a nutshell things would usually always be harder in smaller groups compared to bigger ones. The smaller the group, the more you need luck or the right contacts or the right actions at the right time to be able to "lift off" or get anywhere.

 

Anything is still possible in theory, but maybe harder or easier depending on the circumstances. In most cases, if you want to be a loner or only work with very few people in a classic fashion, it'll be harder in many cases. Achieving things could, at the same time, perhaps feel more rewarding, no doubt.

 

But at the end of the day, (re)building civilization or making big player states, empires or businesses is a collaborative effort where loners or very small groups may contribute, but never really (collectively) shape the landscape and I do not mean that in an all too literal sense regarding "shaping the landscape". Look at the current or future big organizations to get a feeling of what I could mean or try to convey.

 

Compared to them, how can a one-man or very small personal empire really "compete" or "stand out"? You can be successful individually or on different scales and perhaps manage to obtain a core set of supporters, clients, members, etc. But the big groups will still be known by the average Joe sooner or later and people tend to stick to larger groups from what I can assume or assess so far. Safety in numbers n' all.

 

From what I gathered so far, there is no big or any intend to really have AI be a dominating or key aspect in the game later on, at least not in regards to military conflicts or economic aspects - in short, the players may have to do most of the work themselves with various tools or through effort.

 

I would therefore plan for this, all in all, to be prepared. If it changes and becomes easier? Then it gets easier. If not, you planned ahead.

 

 

-----

 

In short, anything is in theory possible, but large(r) groups usually have abstract or very real advantages over loners or small teams or organizations.

 

As for the "trust thing" I still suggest to try to slowly change the expectations and take a few risks - might become the greatest time spent online you can have, maybe.

 

 

The great game is always in motion, whether you want it or not.

Just like the river flows and the individual drop of water is unable to stop it, can only really go along with it.

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A game like this thrives on the possibilities it offers and people working towards their own and common goals. 

The less restrictions there are - the more open it is to the nature of human behavior and realism. Here we get the

opportunity (these days far to rare in a game) to be all we want to be and have this reflected to us by consequence. 

Humans are it´s worst enemy - Space is the most hostile environment - combine that and inevitably we will face desaster in different forms.

This game might give us the chance to see how we can deal with this and how to grow a society beyond the restrictions we put on ourselves.

I find it "refreshing" to have a game where fear to loose your assets is a thing - where people and groups have to get together 

on a common ground to achieve their goal - where not one singular person has a chance to be the "Master of Universe" because life doesn´t work that way.

 

Yes, it´s still a game and i want to have fun with it ofcause - but this way of "simulation" appeals to me a great deal to be honest.

   

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4 hours ago, RJ_RodassonJenkins said:

 

I find it "refreshing" to have a game where fear to loose your assets is a thing - where people and groups have to get together 

on a common ground to achieve their goal - 

   

You must have missed this game called EVE Online then I guess ;)

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