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Tactician

My biggest worry about this game

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On 21.10.2017 at 12:28 PM, Warden said:

As Lethys said (and given the context of my post you quoted, that in turn quoted a different post that might give it the proper context): Game "rules" don't automatically equal or touch upon all sorts of values or aspects of "reality" as many like to dub it.

 

If you happen to get a super resistant disease or if your job gets replaced or made obsolete (for humans) due to technological advances, that is one thing and somewhat dependent on a higher power that you may not be able to influence or control much or at all.

 

If you start an organization in a game, that's a lot more of control and thus responsibility or blame to bear if things go south due to your own (bad?) decisions that could maybe have been avoided already with sufficient foresight. What I mean is simple: If you try to invent the wheel anew, or, more specifically, try to open up another burger shop while there is 3 others within 500 meters, one should not wonder about a lack of progress or profit, if you get what I mean.

 

More specifically, if people open up organizations here that by style, design and content are already plentiful and / or they are so by in-game location or if organization leaders are simply inept because of being rather unstable, emotional, lashing out and so on, that's simply tough luck. And given the large influx of organizations to be expected, I must also admit that I could not care less. Not because I want to be cocky or uncaring, but because that is the way things go.

 

On a game level, that is - before anyone thinks of real life examples that are surely more dire than losing time in some online game due to bad moves.

Yes, that's why my comment was a sidenote, only partially concerning DU, as the term "natural selection" was used. And it's a term with an real-life origin. So on one side it's only a game, on other side - when backing some claims about the shape of gameplay, people use real-life references all the time, somehow legitimizing their positions by trying to prove that, this is how real life looks like, so the game should resemble it by some distant analogy, and it's only possible way for it to be functioning well (i.e. as they see fit).

Your argument about burger shop, touching free competition aspect on market is very clear, however it doesn't touch many other scenarios which may happen and tend to happen: sabotage, price dumping, black-PR, etc. Economics systems are shaped by participants, but also by rules and regulations by which they function. It's too complicated to sum it up in one example, even in a game environemt. So the degree of your control is something debatable, depending on scenario. Hopefully you know what I mean.

I'm not in any way competent to talk about managing an org in any MMO game, nor planning to be, so yeah...hopefully I'll find my way to exist in non-PvP zone and function somewhere in more neutral parts of the DU galaxy. I don't want to be involved in highly competitive, PvP-driven paradigm in DU, especially if the dynamics of this PvP gameplay would be shaped by people who cut their teeth on it, and for which they want to play DU. And especially, especially at the beginning of my DU experience.

I have to accept the fact of being in some kind of non-EVE originated minority, and I cannot discuss about re-inventing the wheel, if wheel is understood as some "imported" game ecosystem of which I have no closer idea of, except for knowing it's very PvP driven, which is not my thing at all, as I said above. I also don't want to sucked into "ally or enemy" logic, which strikes me as false alternatives system, where my choice is fight someone or join them. I just want to be able to enjoy the game on my terms, not dictated by some conflict and conflict-driven people.

Also - I understand the logic of organizations being as cautious as possible when dealing with strangers on their territory, but I also advocate for some safety mechanisms for unexperienced players and people with no-hostile intentions.

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On 21.10.2017 at 2:20 PM, blazemonger said:

Saying that to defend what's yours you must attack and kill whomever is not a friend is IMO the worst. It shows you are paranoid, self centred and ignorant. It also is a recipe for isolation and eventual solitude. Any and all institutions living by this rule eventually fall and get eradicated.

 

Those who can only sum up the 'bad things' in EVE and can only voice fear that these will negatively impact DU are part of the problem and will generally be part of the negative spiral. EVE has so much that is good, that cares and that provides, DU can only hope it rises to that level over time. The trend I see now is that too many coming from EVE with that negative attitude seem to be willing to apply that exact same attitude in DU. Community mechanics, interactions and politics existing in EVE are there as they evolved over nearly 15 years of the game being active. Other games which saw the same mechanics applied immediately because EVE players moved in quickly went downhill, Albion is a prime example of this.

 

It's like the kid getting abused at home, who then moves out and starts his own family only to find himself a child abuser because that is what he knows (I know this is a crude comparison and I do not, and I mean NOT, address anyone personally here) . And this IMO is a problem.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, you're advocating the approach of implementing well-working (in your oppinion, of course) mechanics from EVE community (interactions and politics), while cutting off negative aspects (Not Blue Shoot It...I've got that right?)?

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On ‎10‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 4:35 PM, Tactician said:

so been following this game for a short time looks really good but my biggest worry is the sandbox mmorpg aspect, build anywhere, player driven, uh have yu not taken a look at eve online? CCP did the same thing gave players 100% freedom to run there games universe and what did everyone turn into? trolls, griefers and muggers, same damn thing will happen here sorry to say.

That's not always true there is a small percent of people on a server that have that play style over all, but if the devs don't do anything about it then people get fed up soon everyone will jumps on that wagon and it becomes like the wild west! If you steal your a outlaw don't try to sugar coat it but if there are enough people and systems to help keep this in check then it all balances out and people can play the way they want to without things being one sided!

 

Personally I think the outlaw and bounty hunter play style add character to a game as long as its not one sided like I explained : keeping it balanced will be a real challenge and if I remember the  devs said one over night griefer will not be able to destroy you base or ship : it would take a lot of people and coordinated effort to accomplish it and not to mention as long as 1 of your members is on they could put up a good fight and also call for back up form allies and other members! 

 

I can understand your fear from playing other games but I don't think that will be a issue in DU also we are just getting started so lets see how it plays out I am sure they will make adjustments where they are needed.    =)

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1 hour ago, Ghoster said:

So, correct me if I'm wrong, you're advocating the approach of implementing well-working (in your oppinion, of course) mechanics from EVE community (interactions and politics), while cutting off negative aspects (Not Blue Shoot It...I've got that right?)?

 

No, I am saying everyone should play as they feel they should, just that I believe that applying long standing mechanics in EVE verbatim would not be good and that DU needs to evolve on it's own. I believe (and we're seeing this ins EVE) that NBSI will lead to very thin agreements of keeping the peace which when they break, break violently and costly. I think it's a great topic for a good and long discussion someday as it goes way to deep to flesh out here. What I am sharing is _my_ personal feelings on this and how I want to play/what I believe is right. Your or anyone else's mileage may vary..

 

Some game play in EVE may appear abusive, griefing and overly violent but in reality many of these are a result of role play. Good example would be CODE who in EVE are a group fanatics who believe they have the calling to implement order in mining by enforcing buying mining permits from them or be ganked and killed when they come across you. It's a highsec playstyle which you may not approve of, may not appreciate but in the EVE sandbox it's actually perfectly fine and acceptable gameplay. CODE shows up in Nullsec every now and then, but they generally do not last long..

 

It's why many of us will say HighSec in EVE is actually more scary and dangerous that NullSec as in Null you will know what to expect and who to trust (or not) depending on where you are. There is no such 'security' in Highsec where anyone at any time may decide to gank you if what you fly has more value than what they stand to lose when they get Concorded (killed by HighSec police) because they engaged you.

 

Almost no one does anything in EVE 'just because they can'. There is a deep and evolved doctrine and belief system in EVE because it is a game that has been around for a long, long time. As a result the community, politics and economics of the game stand on their own and may sometime parallel real world events or situations but should be left as they are inside the game.

 

For me, I will not take an aggressive position, will not instigate fights or get myself involved in the fights of others. I will make sure though I am prepared to eradicate you if you decide to try and mess with me, my business or the people I fly and work with. DU does not have the (many) safety nets EVE has with regards to your possessions  and that is fine, it does mean though that you need to prepare for the eventuality of someone trying to take what's yours and maybe destroy it or accept the loss.

 

 

Saying you do not appreciate, like or want to partake in PVP at any time would be like playing a soccer match and not wanting to play the ball once it lands at your feet. You may not agree with a player pulling a shirt or making a hard tackle, but it will happen and may happen to you. The only way to ensure it won't is to stay at the sideline and not play.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

For me, I will not take an aggressive position, will not instigate fights or get myself involved in the fights of others. I will make sure though I am prepared to eradicate you if you decide to try and mess with me, my business or the people I fly and work with. DU does not have the (many) safety nets EVE has with regards to your possessions  and that is fine, it does mean though that you need to prepare for the eventuality of someone trying to take what's yours, destroy it or accept the loss.

 

 

Saying you do not appreciate, like or want to partake in PVP at any time would be like playing a soccer match and not wanting to play the ball once it lands at your feet. You may not agree with a player pulling a shirt or making a hard tackle, but it will happen and may happen to you. The only way to ensure it won't is to stay at the sideline and not play.

 

 

I don't appreciate and want to partake in PvP in DU, especially in an early game. I may have to defensively PvP, if I'll be attacked, so I will be have to be prepared for it. Defensive PvP is a forced PvP, not chosen.

And no, let's not compare DU to soccer match, because it's not soccer match, and it's far from anything close to soccer match, too :P

As for the "safety nets" - I think the gameplay is still under developement, at least in more advanced aspects, so we will find out.

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2 hours ago, Ghoster said:

I don't take advices from complete douchebags, and you're famous for it already.

But feel free to make more false assumptions and boost your feeling of superiority.

Btw. English is not my first language, in case you haven't noticed. I'm not perfect at it, nor will ever be.

I would love to see btw. (x2) how many words in modern English or any other language have strictly close meaning in relation to their etymology. But I don't know...maybe languages don't develop and change over time.

I hope you know thorougly some pre-Greek languages too, any person with such deep insight into linguistics and etymology shouldn't be satisfied with speaking only Greek, you know :D 

All I heard is :

"Woof woof, WOOF WOOF *growls* ".

please, contain your rabies. 

English not my first language either... so, you have no excuse? Dayum.

Also, you are part of the problem with society. See, people like you, is the reason why people smarter than you too kthe word "idiot" - which means "Private Citizen" - in Ancient Greece and used it to describe anyone advocating for their civil rights as people - you know, like those pesky peasants who didn't want to live in a caste society. Same people took the word "moron" - which means Baby in Ancient Greece - and used it to describe anyone who made any arguement with an emotional strain behind it.

See, you are the reason humanity is doomed. Smarter people than you, speak words that you can't even comprehend.

Now, keep barking, the smaller canines always bark the loudest.

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8 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

All I heard is :

"Woof woof, WOOF WOOF *growls* ".

please, contain your rabies. 

English not my first language either... so, you have no excuse? Dayum.

Also, you are part of the problem with society. See, people like you, is the reason why people smarter than you too kthe word "idiot" - which means "Private Citizen" - in Ancient Greece and used it to describe anyone advocating for their civil rights as people - you know, like those pesky peasants who didn't want to live in a caste society. Same people took the word "moron" - which means Baby in Ancient Greece - and used it to describe anyone who made any arguement with an emotional strain behind it.

See, you are the reason humanity is doomed. Smarter people than you, speak words that you can't even comprehend.

Now, keep barking, the smaller canines always bark the loudest.

All this knowledge on etymology used only to try to offend your interlocutor? I'm nor impressed, nor suprised to be honest.

Yes, for people like you the only problem with society is probably everyone except you, it's clearly visible. :) You're almost ideal material for some despotic tyrant, though you waste your time on discussing with some "idiot" or "moron" on a game forum...born in the wrong times, eh? In Ancient Greece you could be someone...at least you seem to deeply believe in it.

Btw. claiming no emotional strain on your side? Funny!

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8 minutes ago, Ghoster said:

All this knowledge on etymology used only to try to offend your interlocutor? I'm nor impressed, nor suprised to be honest.

Yes, for people like you the only problem with society is probably everyone except you, it's clearly visible. :) You're almost ideal material for some despotic tyrant, though you waste your time on discussing with some "idiot" or "moron" on a game forum...born in the wrong times, eh? In Ancient Greece you could be someone...at least you seem to deeply believe in it.

Btw. claiming no emotional strain on your side? Funny!

You got baited. I never called YOU an idiot or a moron. Neither did I claim to be superior. Good to see you suffer from an inferiority complex. I bet you must enjoy being the smaller dog. You seem to love barking on this thread.

Good to see you are heavily biased though. I was initially going to be mean, but I wanted to check first for some  issues on your end. Now I pity you.

Of course, you'd see pity as an insult "how dare they feel superior than me" you will think ,then go bark a bit more.

Check your ego, it's killing you man. :/

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Just now, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

You got baited. I never called YOU an idiot or a moron. Neither did I claim to be superior. Good to see you suffer from an inferiority complex. I bet you must enjoy being the smaller dog. You seem to love barking on this thread.

Good to see you are heavily biased though. I was initially going to be mean, but I wanted to check first for some  issues on your end. Now I pity you.

Of course, you'd see pity as an insult "how dare they feel superior than me" you will think ,then go bark a bit more.

Check your ego, it's killing you man. :/

That's very deep psychology, man! Cheers!

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If all you want is a multiplayer space combat voxel builder, go play Emyperium, or Space Engineers. This game was pitched as a pvp based sandbox MMORPG with heavy infulence from EVE Online. If you don't want a sandbox mmo, no one is forcing you to play.

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2 hours ago, Tethrazor said:

If all you want is a multiplayer space combat voxel builder, go play Emyperium, or Space Engineers. This game was pitched as a pvp based sandbox MMORPG with heavy infulence from EVE Online. If you don't want a sandbox mmo, no one is forcing you to play.

I played eve since forever ago, I am looking forward to this game due to its similarities to eve plus the construction looks amazing, I hope I get an invite soon

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11 hours ago, Tethrazor said:

If all you want is a multiplayer space combat voxel builder, go play Emyperium, or Space Engineers. This game was pitched as a pvp based sandbox MMORPG with heavy infulence from EVE Online. If you don't want a sandbox mmo, no one is forcing you to play.

You've meant "Empyrion"?

Also - no one said anything about not wanting sandbox. Control mechanisms and culture of play is all. 

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1 hour ago, Ghoster said:

You've meant "Empyrion"?

Also - no one said anything about not wanting sandbox. Control mechanisms and culture of play is all. 

Thing is though, "culture of play" means different things for different people

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3 hours ago, Lethys said:

Thing is though, "culture of play" means different things for different people

Sure, that's why we're discussing it.

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16 hours ago, Tethrazor said:

This game was pitched as a pvp based sandbox

Really ?

 

The KS page simply says:

  • Emergent gameplay : economy, trade, territories, politics and warfare are all player-driven. Both PvP and non-PvP will be possible.

 

That's the beauty of "sandbox" games, they are whatever you want them to be !

 

"PVP will be possible" is a far cry from "the game will be PVP-based". Subtle but important distinction...

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With a astronomically correct universe, anyone can be left alone in DU if they want to. Just boost for a couple of hours in a random direction, and you have a higher chance of winning the lottery then meeting someone else. The only question is if there will be enough random planets/asteroids out there to make this a viable solutions.

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1 hour ago, Ghoster said:

Sure, that's why we're discussing it.

Yeah, but imho that's futile and we will discuss this until the end of time. Because I just have another opinion than you, which is fine, by all means. No one will step down - so yeah...

10 minutes ago, CptLoRes said:

With a astronomically correct universe, anyone can be left alone in DU if they want to. Just boost for a couple of hours in a random direction, and you have a higher chance of winning the lottery then meeting someone else. The only question is if there will be enough random planets/asteroids out there to make this a viable solutions.

It's not astronomical correct, because it just can't be. Even with a velocity of 1000c, you will only be able to reach a very small portion of the galaxy. IF you even hit a planet.....Because space is mostly only that. Space.

 

But yes, you can fly for some time to reach a far away planet in the same system to be somewhat alone, or hide on an asteroid. They said it'll need a couple of hours to reach the farthest planets. And days to weeks (once ftl is invented) to reach a new system

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People should stop bitching about NQ's stance on "scammers won't be penalised for tricking you".

 

People should stop whining about "no, griefers won't be penalised (IRL harrassment is the place where NQ steps in, that's a no-no on so many non-game related reasons)".

 

People should also stop whining about "no safe-space". There is one, it's the Safezone on the Arkship. If you want to live in a sterilised world, be my guest, live in the safezone. If anything, Safezones will be the best prisons, with every single griefer around it waiting like a shark.

PvP extends to markets, it extends to inlfuence, it extends to making deals - which is what politics is for - it extends to competition of any kind in the game. Most of those people, will NOT play fair, on any level.

If you want a fair play MMO, where everyone is honorable and just and a total BORE of a game, DU won't be the game for you.

If you want an MMO where you are " Leader of the Galactic Snowflake Empire's Army and the Most Important Person in the Lore" this is NOT the game for you. This game is about experiencing an in-game world through the eyes of an everyday person, that COULD amount to something epic. You know, adventure? It involves risks. If you run no risks, the game is not fun. 

If you want to play a game that's an MMO, that is sandbox, but not really an MMO, where everything is tailored towards a single-player experience, this game is NOT for you, this game is not one you should venture alone, it will be boring if you do so. Get into an organisation , find the one you find most comfortable hanging out with. If this is not your thing, go play Black Desert Online, I'll bet you love being one of the 1000000 other chosen ones.

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27 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

PvP extends to markets, it extends to inlfuence, it extends to making deals - which is what politics is for - it extends to competition of any kind in the game.

Let's keep it real, shall we ?

 

To the average gamer, "PVP" means pew-pew, i.e. killing other players and/or being killed by them.

 

Most online games involve various forms of competition, but not all of them will be classed as "PVP" games. The "PVP" label is commonly used to describe a very specific form of competition.

 

If you start messing around with the commonly accepted definitions of terms, then you end up in NMS territory... (e.g. NMS is a multiplayer game, because everyone plays in the same shared universe, etc.).

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Just now, NanoDot said:

Let's keep it real, shall we ?

 

To the average gamer, "PVP" means pew-pew, i.e. killing other players and/or being killed by them.

 

Most online games involve various forms of competition, but not all of them will be classed as "PVP" games. The "PVP" label is commonly used to describe a very specific form of competition.

 

If you start messing around with the commonly accepted definitions of terms, then you end up in NMS territory... (e.g. NMS is a multiplayer game, because everyone plays in the same shared universe, etc.).

Thing is, Economic Warfare is still warfare. Violence is not the only kind of fighting. PEople compete in the market, traders outdo one another, people lose ,oney, other people get richer.

That's PvP. Some people get-off on it in EVE Online.

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5 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

That's PvP. Some people get-off on it in EVE Online.

Quite honestly I love the player to player trade. Talking about prices, showing no shame when you ask for the skin on their nose. Markets have their use but I prefer the real time trading. Always a chance you are greeted with a pistol. 

 

Nothing beats a good deal. :P

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21 minutes ago, Falstaf said:

Quite honestly I love the player to player trade. Talking about prices, showing no shame when you ask for the skin on their nose. Markets have their use but I prefer the real time trading. Always a chance you are greeted with a pistol. 

 

Nothing beats a good deal. :P

Sometimes i really wonder how will the whole economic structure evolve in Dual Universe.

I'm of the mind that the game shouldn't provide a form of pre established currency and drive people create the economic network from scratch.

Just imagine player driven Faction States powerful enough to found their very own personal currency.

That would be indeed the pinnacle of emergant gameplay.

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2 hours ago, Armedwithwings said:

Sometimes i really wonder how will the whole economic structure evolve in Dual Universe.

I'm of the mind that the game shouldn't provide a form of pre established currency and drive people create the economic network from scratch.

Having player driven Faction States powerful enough to found their very own personal currency is the pinnacle of emergant gameplay.

Nobody hinders you from using minerals as a tradeable commodity. You got a lot of something, you can exchange it with another person who has a lot of that somethign you want, but they don't got that something you have.

Quanta (the game's currency) is not a "must have". I bet some people will out right denoucne it, as Quanta is easilly infalted, while resoruces are finite in the game and much of those resources is destroyed in combat. So, if you stock up on a resource, you could make a LOTS of Quanta if you dump the product o nthe market at an opportune moment if Quanta is what you are after.

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