Jump to content
Tactician

My biggest worry about this game

Recommended Posts

16 hours ago, Forodrim said:

DU is set to be a game with PVP and non-PVP activities suitable for multiple playstyles. 

NQ will have to make sure that the toxic "harassment for teh lulz" mentallity that some EVE players have will not run rampant in their community. 

 

Harassment for the lulz is relative

 

In EVE one can choose to be a pirate, you hunt and kill those who are going about their business. This is not harassment, it is a play style.

You can also choose t be a (religious) zealot who demands miners have permits in areas you claim to control and gank/kill them if they don't. That is also a play style

This is not the Disney Channel, life is a bitch, HTFU.

 

 

Personally, I go about my business in EVE and intend to do the same in DU. If I come across a hunter/pirate/whatever and they manage to catch/kill me good for them.. I'll reship and be on my way again. DU will be very unforgiving about mismanagement of assets, EVE is actually very simplistic in that regard and offers (IMO) way to many safeguards.

 

It will be interesting to see how the game will handle players being in different time zones, EVE has a timer system where action will be delayed to allow for someone who may be offline and asleep while someone else attacks his assets is up and roaming. It will be a matter of setting up defenses an potentially hiring a security group to watch your stuff when you are away. Plenty of options for game play there..

 

 

Lastly, those who complain and cry about how some EVE players conduct their business will get a rough wake up call in DU.. Besides that, for those who do really do not understand the game they are playing or comprehend the concept of a full loot persistent MMO; If you get killed, you lose the stuff you have on you. If your base gets attacked/destroyed, you lose your stuff. Anyone complaining about this should have done their homework before getting on board. If you do not like this, there's always WOW or any other MMO which will let you just respawn with your inventory intact (or with minimal impact).

 

Again.. HTFU

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

29 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

Harassment for the lulz is relative

What I'm talking about is the mocking and continued harassment of players who are clearly in distress and pissed about what happened to them in game. 

As an example for the toxic mentality you can look at Mittanis harassment at a con of an player including the the statement "if you want to make the guy kill himself, his name is ....". That is no longer a playstyle.

29 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

Lastly, those who complain and cry about how some EVE players conduct their business will get a rough wake up call in DU..

how do you know? there is no information on how DU will handle PVP and looting  etc. The only thing we know so far is that NQ has stated that PVP and nonPVP playstyles will be viable. The EVE Players are the ones that go around claiming it will be free for all PVP / loot everything. 

construct to construct was rather low on their strech goal list, so I would be a bit surprised if that would be the main point of the game. DU will attract a different crowd than EVE and NQ will have to take that into account otherwise they will fail. 

 

I also kind of wonder why EVE players want to make DU into EVE 2.0? if you love EVE so much go back and play EVE. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

Lastly, those who complain and cry about how some EVE players conduct their business will get a rough wake up call in DU.. Besides that, for those who do really do not understand the game they are playing or comprehend the concept of a full loot persistent MMO; If you get killed, you lose the stuff you have on you. If your base gets attacked/destroyed, you lose your stuff. Anyone complaining about this should have done their homework before getting on board.

I feel it's important that people clearly understand the kind of game play that exists in a game before they start playing.

 

Until such time as all DU's systems are implemented and we know what shape the game play will take, I will stress the fact that DU includes non-consensual full-loot FFA-PVP in almost the entire game world. Trying to pretend that "everything will magically be allright for everyone" does nobody any favours. It will just lead to rage-quitting and DU will become "FU" to the disillusioned...

 

DU will be far harsher than EVE-Online. EVE's "high-sec" space is littered with 1000's of 100% safe NPC stations where a player's stuff can be stored in complete safety. DU will have nothing like that. DU will have no 24/7 NPC police force that will instantly respond to punish "criminals". In DU you WILL lose your stuff, and probably fairly regularly...

 

However, I don't intend to insult or ridicule other people's playstyle preferences. Those are just as valid as mine, just not within the rule-set of every game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Forodrim said:

there is no information on how DU will handle PVP and looting  etc.

Not so.

 

We know that you can be attacked anywhere outside the arkship safezone, so the rule set is non-consensual FFA-PVP.

We know that you drop your entire inventory contents on death, so "full-loot" applies. Your killer doesn't get all the loot though, a random part will be destroyed (same as EVE) before the "virtual loot container" pops into the world.

 

33 minutes ago, Forodrim said:

construct to construct was rather low on their strech goal list, so I would be a bit surprised if that would be the main point of the game

You're trying to rationalize things here in a vain attempt to change the nature of the game.

 

Avatar vs Avatar combat was in DU from the start. As was the non-consensual full-loot FFA-PVP rule set.

CvC was a stretch goal, not because NQ "didn't really plan on adding combat", but because adding CvC before launch would require significant additional work. CvC was always going to be added, reaching the stretch goal just made the funds available to do it before launch.

 

In every interview that JC has done, you will hear EVE mentioned several times. NQ have adapted many features from EVE., and the influence of EVE on DU's game design is undeniable. EVE players are not trying to shape DU into "EVE 2.0", NQ are leading the way...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

We know that you can be attacked anywhere outside the arkship safezone

plus you can create safezones on your own, expensive but possible. 

 

13 minutes ago, NanoDot said:

We know that you drop your entire inventory contents on death,

source? 

 

"Inspired by EVE" and "will be just like EVE only harsher" are two different things. 

but this discussion is increasingly pointless. Most of the stuff discussed here is not fleshed out in the game, let alone tested (no plan will survive the first contact with the enemy ;) ).

 

I think the concerns about this game are valid, DU as a simple gankbox will fail (and it will be a wasted opportunity). I don't see a large enough audience for a simple gankbox game in the scope of DU. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Forodrim said:

plus you can create safezones on your own, expensive but possible. 

 

source? 

NQ clearly intend the establishing of safezones to be something only a large group of players will attempt. AND they will have to be defended...

 

Arkship shield tech creates the safe zone:

This is the kind of construct that will require a very large number of players and resources to create, and will be made available in the game much later.

However, the energy cost of such a gigantic device, as well as the military protection that will be necessary to protect it against frontal attacks or sabotage, does not make it something you can just build in your garden with some friends. 

source: Arkship Security devblog

 

 

Dropping inventory on death:

You loose your inventory, your ship, possibly also your geographical position (you need to travel back to where you died)

source: Quantum Immortality Devblog

 

All these things might change before launch, but pinning your hopes on that fact is a very risky endeavour, because that's hoping that NQ will completely change the "spirit" of their intended game design...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Forodrim said:

 

What I'm talking about is the mocking .....

As an example for the toxic mentality you can look at Mittanis

A single comment or incident does not warrant a trend or generalization

Was he right? No.. But it's one lapse of reason. 

 

Some players will mine the salt and tears of those who do not understand how the game works.. Getting your ship blown up by a ganker is never 'nice' but it's a fact of life in games such as EVE and DU. As with so many things, do not fly what you can't afford to lose.

 

The sentiment that DU should be a safehaven for carebears who are to risk averse and scared to accept they will need to stand up and defend what's theirs is at best misplaced. If that is what you seek, go play Space Engineers (great game btw.. just saying because there is no PVP if you stay in your own little world).

 

Oh, and a CareBear is not someone who prefers to not PVP, it is someone who does not want to see PVP in what by definition is a PVP environment (and yes, DU will be a PVP environment).

 

Many comments here basically are about a football player complaining there's big guys with Kevlar body armor trying to block them from scoring a goal.

 

1 hour ago, Forodrim said:

how do you know? there is no information on how DU will handle PVP and looting  etc.

Unlike EVE, your assets are never safe. If your base/station gets destroyed it's contents can be looted and/or assets are destroyed. If a citadel in EVE blows up your assets get magically transferred to some other station as 'asset safety'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, Forodrim said:

I think the concerns about this game are valid, DU as a simple gankbox will fail (and it will be a wasted opportunity). I don't see a large enough audience for a simple gankbox game in the scope of DU. 

 

The idea that DU will be a simple gankbox is far, far off from the truth. Many folk crying about this seem to reference experience in EVE and I'm willing to bet these are mostly Highsec Carebears who think that in EVE Highsec is safe while it is far from that, it's scary and dangerous. Highsec is more about risk vs reward than any other region in EVE since as long as your ship's value is higher than mine it is profitable for me to gank and kill you so my buddy can scoop your stuff.. Get rich quick.

 

Actually, I should start a 'GankShip Inc' shipbuilding business in DU. .Probably make a good bit of Quantas .. :P

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@blazemonger

 

Minor corrections :

1) You don't need to be an Amarrian zealot in Providence to run Rentals, the Russians do that just fine in EVE and with great success, most of them don't even care about - or not even know - what the Lore is. I mean, to be honest, isn't EVE about space humans who were trapped after the EVE Wormhole collapsed or some sizzle like that? Then they went to the stone age or something? I don't know, and probably, 90% of the EVE playerbase doesn't know either. As Lord Mandalore said : "EVE's lore is not important".

2) Carebear is an exclusive title for anyone who does only PVE in an MMO for the "lore", like it's a singleplayer game, usually in an Open-World PvP game. I know many traders in EVE who avoid direct PvP for "pretend" reasons, but they have no moral quams ordering a grief-streak from mercs on a person's corp. Thus, I don't think "Carebear" applies in DU, we'll have to come up with another title to "mock" such people, like "Tourists", or "owls" (as they are looking at people like O,O who do PvP and stuff) or "civilians". I mean, hey, if people establish some semblance of "laws of war" (if even possible) "civilians" (AKA people who only do RP stuff and provide into an economy without pvping) can be excluded from being targeted individually - unless they take up guns.

Let's be honest, DU is heavily reliant on the RPer population, we might as well treat them as rare resources - you know, the human kind.

Not that GOONs will care, but some of us space bandits only care to stick it to the "man", not neccessarily the Average Joe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

Many folk crying about this seem to reference experience in EVE and I'm willing to bet these are mostly Highsec Carebears who think that in EVE Highsec is safe.

 

Nah, I usually did Wormhole Hopping to get into Nullsec and hunt for relic and data sites there. 

 

Well, we will see how the specifics will turn out in DU. I'm looking forward to how space fight will work with the DU flight mechanics. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Forodrim said:

Nah, I usually did Wormhole Hopping to get into Nullsec and hunt for relic and data sites there. 

Well, we will see how the specifics will turn out in DU. I'm looking forward to how space fight will work with the DU flight mechanics. 

 

Pretty much same thing, only I live in Sansha space so never have to go far :P

 

While often flying an interceptor when doing relic sites anyway, No issue with bubbles and generally away from a site before a villain decloaks and locks. And in actuallity mostly it's just empty space anyway.. The occasional cat/mouse of getting away from bubbled gates in say an Astero is just fun.

 

As mentioned previously, I only get to Highsec to run event sites really.. And then I take a relatively cheap PVE fitted VNI with fireworks to shoot at lootrobbers.. no need to get worked up and more relaxing an fun that way..

 

I already have a design for a deep space explorer base ship with several smaller utility ships in the hangers to be built in DU. Me and my crew will  just embark and be on our way, to see what's out there..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

And then I take a relatively cheap PVE fitted VNI with fireworks to shoot at lootrobbers.. no need to get worked up and more relaxing an fun that way..

Funny, I started in EVE as a ninja looter :D

Even got a BS to start firing at me, of course he did not hit me and was quickly blown up by Concord. More sweet loot for me. 

 

16 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

I already have a design for a deep space explorer base ship with several smaller utility ships in the hangers to be built in DU. Me and my crew will  just embark and be on our way, to see what's out there..

I plan something similar. not sure about the design, but goal is Deep Space Exploration as well. (already created this https://community.dualthegame.com/organization/gesellschaft-zur-erkundung-des-interstellaren-raum)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/24/2017 at 3:30 PM, Xenoform101 said:

For the builders, unfortunately the building aspect between this game and Empyrion and Space Engineers is as comparable as it is to Minecraft, which it really isn't.

 

So far the most unique aspects of this game is the building and the single massive persistent universe. Those who come for those parts of the game have no other options. They will most likely put up with parts of the game they don't like than those who come for the EVE-like sandbox since if EVE-players don't like other aspects of the game they can just go back to EVE.

 

What annoys me the most is the attitude of players that say "if you don't like it then leave". What is ironic is that in EVE greater numbers matter in wars. Why would it be any different in sales of this game? That basically tells me that those players don't care for the well-being of the game. 

See that is where your view of what this game will be is twisted. Games like this work on a cycle of Build-Destroy.

 

If i'm a crafter/builder, I will need people destroying ships/bases otherwise my job runs out of work. This cycle is what makes sandbox games tick. With out the cycle the game stagnates.

 

So to sum up. PVPers need Crafters to make ships and bases to fly/fight. And Crafters need PVPers out blowing up things in order for there to be a market for their craft. One can not exist without the other.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Tethrazor said:

See that is where your view of what this game will be is twisted. Games like this work on a cycle of Build-Destroy.

 

If i'm a crafter/builder, I will need people destroying ships/bases otherwise my job runs out of work. This cycle is what makes sandbox games tick. With out the cycle the game stagnates.

 

So to sum up. PVPers need Crafters to make ships and bases to fly/fight. And Crafters need PVPers out blowing up things in order for there to be a market for their craft. One can not exist without the other.

Don't get me wrong i have nothing against pvp in general. I just think there should be more incentives for equal or harder fights. Maybe if a ship is completely out-gunned it has more chance of having its salvageable parts completely destroyed. I understand killing for bounty, loot or territory but acts that exist just for the sake of misery like suicide ganking should be heavily discouraged somehow.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, 0something0 said:

I love how people are like

"Anyone who don't want to play a PvP playstyle/worried about secure asset protection/worried about constantly gettinf ganked is a risk-adverse crybaby"

That is totally not what anyone here is saying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Tethrazor said:

If i'm a crafter/builder, I will need people destroying ships/bases otherwise my job runs out of work. This cycle is what makes sandbox games tick. With out the cycle the game stagnates.

 

This, very much.

 

What a lot of people do not get is that (yes again as a compare) in EVE, many wars and even highsec wardecs or miner ganking operations are 'arranged' and/or paid for by industrialists and bankers who rely on the resupply of destroyed assets resulting from said war. It's all relative to "how much do I stand to make by doing this?"

 

While obviously not real world, the economics and politics in EVE, and I would expect in DU as well, are very real and will impact a lot of people in the game. Too many people do no get this component and it's impact on a persistent MMO like EVE or DU.

 

For DU to succeed and grow, ships must be destroyed and rebuilt constantly. It is a player driven economy which needs to be fed. War and conflict (read PVP) is what feeds the economy to a large degree. The DU markets won't survive on selling plants, chairs and tables.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Xenoform101 said:

 I understand killing for bounty, loot or territory but acts that exist just for the sake of misery like suicide ganking should be heavily discouraged somehow.

 

As there is no Concord (Highsec Police in EVE) suicide ganking is less effective by default. A freighter in DU can also be armed to the point where a gank is way to risky.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, blazemonger said:

 

As there is no Concord (Highsec Police in EVE) suicide ganking is less effective by default. A freighter in DU can also be armed to the point where a gank is way to risky.

Plus, you know, the fact that ships in DU aren't pre defined. So either arm your freighters or get people to fly with you. Convoys ftw

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Xenoform101 said:

Don't get me wrong i have nothing against pvp in general. I just think there should be more incentives for equal or harder fights. Maybe if a ship is completely out-gunned it has more chance of having its salvageable parts completely destroyed. I understand killing for bounty, loot or territory but acts that exist just for the sake of misery like suicide ganking should be heavily discouraged somehow.

 

Suicide ganking will only make market prices go up. The people who would do suicide gankings would end up making minerals cost more and more, as resrouces deplete faster, thus making both scarcity AND supply and demand increase. If anything, suicide ganking would make more people buy DACs more easily, mining operations would be a prime-time money-making thing, and mercenaries would have jobs protecting siad miners.

Oh, wait, you are the kind of person who doesn't talk to people in MMOs and wants to "solo that bitch". Yeah, no, that won't work.There is no "Solo miner" in EVCE, those get roflstomped hard.

Also, as Blazemonger and Lethys pointed out, NOBODY limits you from using a warship - like a battleship - then add a lot of containrs in it and use it as a cargo hauler.

But, again, you are the quintessential "MMO-singleplayer" kind of person. Your problem is not ganking, nor griefers, it's the fact you'll have to do that whole "Socialising" thing,

EVE is a great game due to its social aspect. In EVE, you CAN become notorious and infamouis, have legends sprout about you and have people actively talk shit about you cause of your reputation. There is no "reputation bar" to grind in EVE, there is no "Experience bar" to fill - you either learn from being brutally ganked or you don't, there ius no experience points, only raw player intuition.

Your problem lays there, you never learned from ganks. 

Also, you mentioned on another post that "numbers matter"... no they don't. They matter when Titans show up, cause Titans are more like mobile objectives than actual muscle, but not in casual PvP that happens 99% of the time.

Rooks & Kings built their infamy on that principle, 20 vs 100, 20 vs 500, and so on. They have totalled fleets 10:1 stacked against them. how? Player Skill > Numbers.

So, again, we come to a conclusion of you not understanding how the PvP in EVE Works, which means, you never been ina bait fleet, or done Tackle, or done Scouting - the small things about them silly "tactics". Catching an enemy off guard as they land from warp or putting a drag buibble down, can TOTALLY throw them off balanc and let them be fish in a barrel.


Also, to top it off, you assume the game's only attraction is "explode or be exploded". That's not the case. Some other people have made claims on "I worry about the game loop, EVE has a clear game loop". EVE's game loop consists of :

1) Buy ship
2) Hunt for other ships.
3) 1. Explode enemy ship, sell loot, get bigger ship.

3) 2. If  you get exploded, return to 1), and try until you can get bigger ship.

4) Repeat process.


DU is EXACTLY not that. The game is advertised as SANDBOX game, EVE is "sandboxy", but it's pretty linear on what it is about, it's about space mafia wars. DU has no such thing. There are no faction warfares to sell "warfare", there is no "one thing" that in-game funds funnel to. 

Saying "what about the game, if it's easier, it will get more people" is as much a fallacy ,as it is to claim "DU is about PvP" or "DU is about building" or" Du is about X-gameplay".

Most people here who argue for EVE's mechanics, are people who speak of its level of management leisure and market mechanics. MArket drives EVE's "Sandbox", and as far as we EVE players care, we wanna see that kind of meta in DU - cause it's deep.

And EVE suffers from High-Sec people who stay there and do nothing but kill virtual pirates and then whine like babies about "my PVE shi pwas destroyed, boo-hoo, I am not the space commadner I thought I was, boo-hoo".

DEAL with it. Nothing lasts forever.

The very first thing you learn when you move into a proper organisation in EVE is "this is not permanent, we may be evicted one day", or if you have the lucky circumstance of being in an organised alliance where you are part of its military, they will say "don't get attached to this place here, we may relocae" cause oyu know, war fronts relocate, you need to be close to the front line.

You may ask "that's a bit odd, why would an in-game military ask you to not get attached?" Cause most of them pay your ships when destroyed via SRP, you just fly them to battle and show up for fleets.

So, no, the arguement you made "people won't buy into the game if ganking is left free cause those people will get bored of losingtheir ship" is a bullshit arguement, out of aperson who never went to null-sec or even was part of a proper military in EVE Online. We have people who are provided their "footsoldier" ships for free, just cause they showed up, even newbros on Frigates, they are given ECM ships to assist in fleets. 

EVE's problem lays onthe fact they have nothing for the person to entice them to invest in the game in an RP way or activities that are not blowing shit up. When not on a ship, you are just an icon on a chatbox. That's the problem EVE has. Mainstream people can't connect with it to appreciate it. 

DU has SO MANY THINGS non-combat related - building with voxels being only one part of them. The more new gameplay options NQ adds, the mroe people will paly the game. If someone wants to play DU as farmville in FPS mode, they SHOULD be able to do so. If a person wants to play the game as a lone wolf, they should expect the results of being a one man nation - the fact they MUST become a one man army. And if a person wants to be a villain, then it's up to the players to be the police. 

Anyone who has a problem with DU's vision, has a problem with Freedom of Choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, blazemonger said:

For DU to succeed and grow, ships must be destroyed and rebuilt constantly. It is a player driven economy which needs to be fed. War and conflict (read PVP) is what feeds the economy to a large degree. The DU markets won't survive on selling plants, chairs and tables.

That is not entirely true. Unlike EVE, resources are needed in DU for a lot more than shipbuilding and a few citadels or moon-mining towers.

 

Infrastucture in DU will consume resources on scale never seen in EVE.

 

Base and outpost and space station (and later stargate) construction will continuously consume resources, not only due to possible destruction, but because the play area will expand continuously. EVERYTHING in DU is player-built, there are no convenient neutral NPC stations anywhere as there are in EVE, which provide infinite free 100% secure berthing and storage.

 

Fleets  and "reserve ships" will need "safe harbours" all over the place, all those ships are permanently in the world. Outposts will be needed in strategic locations so that larger territory claims and their borders can more easily be patrolled and defended. Fuel and possibly ammo stocks will have to be kept in different places, travel times in DU are real.

 

As certain resources are depleted, mining operations will move further and further away from "HQ". New outposts will be needed to safeguard those operations and provide logistical support, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, CaptainTwerkmotor said:

Saying "what about the game, if it's easier, it will get more people" is as much a fallacy ,as it is to claim "DU is about PvP" or "DU is about building" or" Du is about X-gameplay".

Well put. 

People compare DU to other games a lot, which is fine, and as you said, we eve players mean only certain mechanics by that. That doesn't mean we want eve 2.0, we only want to see that deep gameplay. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect as people realize that DU is a hardcore ffa game, ship designs will get less aesthetically pleasing in favor of practicality because "why should I spend days designing a ship if it will get destroyed anyway?" mentality.

 

It seems like banding into groups of a few dozen like kin Minecraft factions wont be enough and only mega-orgs like Cinderfsll will last a long time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...