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Wardonis

Creative mode

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Hello, I know it's been said before but I feel it kind of needs to be rehashed. We need to have some kind of construction simulator that doesn't require resources. Building anything larger than a fighter just isn't practical any other way. With thoughts towards larger ships like 5-10 man corvettes, destroyers, frigates and cargo haulers, those kinds of ships would take eons to farm material for and were not even talking about battleships, carriers or cruisers that are substantially larger.

 

As a ship designer, I feel this is an incredibly important point. For years I've used minecraft of all things to design ships, and it works, but I could never imagine designing ships like this one without having unlimited resources for design. The resources spent on mistakes and correction alone are massive. This is the largest ship i've built but I have a MUCH larger ship in mind i'd like to try and make one day, but its crazy big, 13.6miles x 7.5miles x 6.2 miles by plan. I doubt i'll ever attempt that design in this game, but i'd like to see it one day.

 

These are a few of the ships I DO want to make in this game.

 

Centurion

 

Trident

 

Maelstrom

 

Valenroth

 

these are just a few of the ships I have in mind, Like I said I have 2 dozen designs, and i'm only 1 person. I still work on them, watch me here if you want. but my point is, i'm sure many other designers feel this way and feel that the lack of a creative mode would be game breaking.

 

 

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If all you want is to design there are many free 3d tools available out there to use during your planning phase. Blender is one of most well rounded open source tools out there.

 

If your looking for a way to import a design to Dual Universe and just add resources to have it built for you on the other hand, I have to object to it. This is not Empyrion and such a method would remove the need for organisations/teams/projects.

 

You really shouldn't expect to be able to build something that large by yourself, at least not in a reasonable time frame. JC said something to this effect in one of the videos (he was referring to people wanting to build a DeathStar).

 

I would like to say here, I'm not saying I'm right and your wrong or anything like that. I just don't think it would work in DU or fit NQs implementation based off what little we have been shown.

Edited by Ezghoul
Clarification

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Hi there, 

 

It's true that:

- Massive Constructs "battlestar cruiser" size or "death star" will require incredible amount of resources and may not (or hardly) be possible to build alone.

- We don't plan to let players import design from 3D tools like 3DS Max, Blender or Zbrush.

 

However:

- It's also true that trial & errors will have a massive cost in resources if designing/prototyping a very large of spaceship must be done in the "real" in-game universe.

- It's also true that it would force all large ship designers to get huge amount of resources just for designing, not even for building. The ideal situation would be that the designer role shouldn't be tied to gather huge amounts of resources (this should be left to the production role).

 

In conclusion:

Yes, having a creative mode inside the game, just for designing purpose (without giving any free resources in the "real" in-game universe) is something we are considering.

However, this is a huge feature to develop, and while we would like to add it to the game, there is a high chance it won't be implemented before the official game release. If it's implemented at some point, it will be probably after, in an expansion.

 

Best Regards,

Nyzaltar.

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Thanx for the heads up. I don't plan to import, DU has a much easier to define system then something like minecraft when it comes to construction. I plan on recapturing the plans ive made 1 ship at a time by replicating them to scale, then refining them. I really hope that a creative tool is something that would be implemented soon after launch if it won't be ready for it.

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It really does make sense to implement this later on in the game as an expansion. There won't be big ships for some time because of various reasons (resources, manpower, skills,..) - better to implement other, more pressing expansions first.

 

As always, thanks for answering nyz

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15 hours ago, NQ-Nyzaltar said:

Yes, having a creative mode inside the game, just for designing purpose (without giving any free resources in the "real" in-game universe) is something we are considering.

However, this is a huge feature to develop, and while we would like to add it to the game, there is a high chance it won't be implemented before the official game release. If it's implemented at some point, it will be probably after, in an expansion.

 

Best Regards,

Nyzaltar.


@NQ-Nyzaltar

Since this might be a added in a future expansion i have been trying to think of a way it could be implemented that makes sense, here's what I've come up with so far:

A player decides he/she wants to design a basic ship or building, wether it's for personal use later or for monetary gain. The first few required pieces of equipment could be:

General Requirements:

1) Architecture & Ship Planning Core (ASP Core)

2) ASP Control Unit

3) ASP Drone Core

4) ASP Drone Dock

5) Minimal entry level skill and Random Waste resources (type doesn't matter just how much mass it provides)

 

NOTE: All components listed above are types of constructs, have modular upgrades scaling with character skills. This gives artistic freedom to design your workspace how you want and upgrade as your characters skill improves.

 

I imagine a new design specialist sitting in a simplistic console chair controlling a small drone. While a Master Designer might be seated on a throne, surrounded by his equipment, fit for the Machine God Emperor and his drone is the size of a small frigate.

Basics of how it works:

The player places the ASP Core in the work area and fills it with waste resources to provide mass. That mass is converted into nano wire mesh and cannot be removed from the Core anymore. When a block is placed nano wire mesh is used to create it, [lore wise] this mesh holds the shape, intended material type, color information etc. of the object being designed. Mesh is uses a 100 (mabey a 1000?) times less mass, so it's very convenient for planning.. but not free.

 

The ASP Core is then connected to the Control Unit (it looks like a chair with a command console). The dock/drone are placed and the dock is connected to a power source. The drone has a limited range based off of the module upgrades and needs to be recharged on it's dock just like a ship needs to be fueled. While controlling the drone the players vision is transferred to it.

 

As I mentioned before my vision of the system would be a visually customizable like any other construct and upgradable. Since designing buildings and ships will be a job within DU, with potential monetary gain, I think characters should have to level into better/bigger equipment.

 

This could also help with player retention, you don't want someone to subscribe for month intending to build a DeathStar and find it's so far beyond their skill that they quit. Instead if they work on smaller projects and they complete them (just like learning to program) they are more likely to continue on as the player gets more comfortable with the in game tools and they get access to new equipment.

 

I would love to hear peoples comments, criticisms or suggestions. I apologise if some of this sounds disjointed or not fully fleshed out, I have been writing this on break at work..

 

Thanks for your time

-Ez

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On 2017-08-03 at 0:16 PM, NQ-Nyzaltar said:

Hi there, 

 

It's true that:

- Massive Constructs "battlestar cruiser" size or "death star" will require incredible amount of resources and may not (or hardly) be possible to build alone.

- We don't plan to let players import design from 3D tools like 3DS Max, Blender or Zbrush.

 

However:

- It's also true that trial & errors will have a massive cost in resources if designing/prototyping a very large of spaceship must be done in the "real" in-game universe.

- It's also true that it would force all large ship designers to get huge amount of resources just for designing, not even for building. The ideal situation would be that the designer role shouldn't be tied to gather huge amounts of resources (this should be left to the production role).

 

In conclusion:

Yes, having a creative mode inside the game, just for designing purpose (without giving any free resources in the "real" in-game universe) is something we are considering.

However, this is a huge feature to develop, and while we would like to add it to the game, there is a high chance it won't be implemented before the official game release. If it's implemented at some point, it will be probably after, in an expansion.

 

Best Regards,

Nyzaltar.

 

Aside from all of this I'd really like it if you would consider a "practice" tool for all of us waiting for the alpha etc. Some sandbox environment where we could get used to voxel editing etc, even if it isn't the final product.
I'm sure you have something like this already, since you've shown us alot of things you have already built so would there be a way to export just the building tool and allowing us to test it? That would surely speed up testing phases if you don't want all the "builders" of the game just sitting around trying to build things the first few weeks or months, but instead go out and try things in the actual game! :)

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@Joakim The alpha is here to test all the mechanics. The day of the release, most of the new players will not be prepared to voxel building.

So we have to ensure that this system is easy enough to understand without any preparation. And if it doesn't, to report our experience and ideas in order to improve it.

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@Ezghoul I think you deserve some feedback on your suggestions:

This ASP-concept is very interesting to enable designing ships together with other players in the actual universe.

However I am more in favor of the VR-Pod suggestion that twerk made a while ago:

... mainly because it would allow to test-fly the design freely inside this Dual-VR-Univesrse. Also the VR universe would be very useful as a "tutorial" environment for new players!  ;)
I could go on with the pros and cons, but basically you should just read this discussion yourself, as it sums up everything quite well.

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@CyberCrunch thanks for the feedback. 

 

I could see taking a design into a VR pod for test flights and for tutorial reasons, that makes sense. In my opinion I think designing should be kept in the world though. Stats/skills should be tied to it some how and there should be a sense of accomplishment when walking into your workspace. It should be easy to tell a new designer from Master designer just from seeing where he builds (imho).

 

This is going to play a major role on the economy and shouldn't be cost free (skill or resource free, although my suggestion is it should be a lot cheaper resource wise then building a prototype).

 

Edit: I don't think test flights & design should be implemented as a single system. I could be wrong but it would probably be easier to maintain and expand if they were separated into two different things.

 

Thanks again for your time and feedback!

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On 2017-08-14 at 9:13 AM, Elildar said:

@Joakim The alpha is here to test all the mechanics. The day of the release, most of the new players will not be prepared to voxel building.

So we have to ensure that this system is easy enough to understand without any preparation. And if it doesn't, to report our experience and ideas in order to improve it.

Quite right. It should be simple enough etc, but I still think - If it's exportable - it would both allow the "engineers" of the game to get some satisfaction, but also allow the same group to actually go into the world and play, and test other mechanics etc. in the alpha and beta tests, instead of sitting around building things. Just seems like a smoother way of doing things to me!

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On 8/3/2017 at 5:36 PM, Wardonis said:

Thanx for the heads up. I don't plan to import, DU has a much easier to define system then something like minecraft when it comes to construction. I plan on recapturing the plans ive made 1 ship at a time by replicating them to scale, then refining them. I really hope that a creative tool is something that would be implemented soon after launch if it won't be ready for it.

According to the most recent Dev Diary, the pre-alpha stage testers will have access to "everything they need to build" out of the gate (without mining, refining, or crafting). The stuff we actually end up building likely won't survive between the test versions and the actual release...

 

But the blueprints will. As a sapphire founder, you will have access to the pre-alpha, which means you can start building Blueprints for these large ships in effectively a creative mode. Now we might not have the right ship elements to get something with so much mass to actually fly yet, there might be extra large thrusters or something that are required but not implemented yet. However, you should be able to build the ship hulls, with whatever ship elements we currently have, and re-fit them in future iterations with newer elements to make them space-worthy.

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Hello all. Based on my experience with the construction of the ships in the games like SE, Avorion, Empyrion i would say that the creative mode is a life NECESSARY. Yeah you can make some ship  in "real universe" for a mining, exploring and fighting - but it is will be a something simple and cheap or just "flyingcube". Maybe you cannot understand what does it construction is mean. But just for example i build not big 20k blocks battleship. I waste over 20 hours to build the hull of the ship then 30 hours to fill it. And then 2 weeks for a test it and make it good and balanced combat ship. If you want do all this thing in the "real game" you need army of miners, builders and defenders.

 

 

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Personally, I think that a 'holo-builder' would be cool where its basically a giant hologram that you can build in. Although as stated above, prototyping should cost resources but for large ships it may just be way too much. So what if the holo-builder cost around 10% of the normal resources without it and you had to say, run power to it (Not sure what this would actually be or even if there is a way to have a direct power input yet) but I think it would allow for greater creative control, especially among smaller corporations.

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You what would be good for a creative mode? A Holodeck. You can build whatever you want, just make sure you save it before you exit to the 'Real' world. Just remember you can only take the blueprints with you.

 

You could have a holodeck outlets as part of the arcship, or you can build one in your base.

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On 9/9/2017 at 8:50 AM, Elildar said:

A Holodeck could be a good solution, indeed.

Being able to load and work on a blueprint with virtual voxels, then save it and leave the room for someone else to use it.

Would also be good for PvP without lasting repercussions too. Like simulating war games and what not. But primarily creative mode of some sort. Or at the very least allow limited combat in an otherwise protected zone.

 

Hopefully it doesn't malfunction or someone turns the safeties... off.

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7 hours ago, Darkarma said:

Would also be good for PvP without lasting repercussions too. Like simulating war games and what not. But primarily creative mode of some sort. Or at the very least allow limited combat in an otherwise protected zone.

 

Hopefully it doesn't malfunction or someone turns the safeties... off.

 

That could be cool. Paying a modest fee to allow organizations to run war-games to help train their military. However, for PvP... I would rather destroy and crush my enemies.

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I'd certainly hope we get a "creative build mode" sooner rather than later.

 

There's a difference between "design" and "construction". Design is a 1-man process, but large-scale construction requires a team.

 

If designing large structures are only possible if you have the materials for building it, that will essentially mean that only a handful of players (the nominated designers in large player orgs) will ever be able to "design" large structures and ships.

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On 8/3/2017 at 6:16 AM, NQ-Nyzaltar said:

Hi there, 

 

It's true that:

- Massive Constructs "battlestar cruiser" size or "death star" will require incredible amount of resources and may not (or hardly) be possible to build alone.

- We don't plan to let players import design from 3D tools like 3DS Max, Blender or Zbrush.

 

However:

- It's also true that trial & errors will have a massive cost in resources if designing/prototyping a very large of spaceship must be done in the "real" in-game universe.

- It's also true that it would force all large ship designers to get huge amount of resources just for designing, not even for building. The ideal situation would be that the designer role shouldn't be tied to gather huge amounts of resources (this should be left to the production role).

 

In conclusion:

Yes, having a creative mode inside the game, just for designing purpose (without giving any free resources in the "real" in-game universe) is something we are considering.

However, this is a huge feature to develop, and while we would like to add it to the game, there is a high chance it won't be implemented before the official game release. If it's implemented at some point, it will be probably after, in an expansion.

 

Best Regards,

Nyzaltar.

Would it be possible to create a mode of the game that is like, "god mode," for the purposes of creation, with the capacity to import blueprints? Or a similar external app that runs on the games engine, with the same capacity?

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Bitmouse said:

Would it be possible to create a mode of the game that is like, "god mode," for the purposes of creation, with the capacity to import blueprints? Or a similar external app that runs on the games engine, with the same capacity?

 

 

The more topics you necro, the better? ;)

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I believe that this idea could have potential. The way I would see it though is that you could go to a builder's area that is really big and have it give you the option to go into "Test" or "Envision" mode where you could construct a design (possibly have it be transparent or grayed out) and when you finish you could save it as a "Template" or "Guide" which then could be like a blueprint but what would happen is you have to activate it and then you could put voxels into the positions inside and build the ship with this "Template" as a kind of transparent sketch that you would have to fill in with real resources to actually make.

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On 9/26/2017 at 11:23 AM, Bitmouse said:

Would it be possible to create a mode of the game that is like, "god mode," for the purposes of creation, with the capacity to import blueprints? Or a similar external app that runs on the games engine, with the same capacity?

 

 

What if there was a creative mode server, and a standard play server, the only thing you could trade between them are blueprints?

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On 8/3/2017 at 6:16 AM, NQ-Nyzaltar said:

- Massive Constructs "battlestar cruiser" size or "death star" will require incredible amount of resources and may not (or hardly) be possible to build alone.

 

I understand that BUILDING a colossal structure will and should take a ton of resources, I have no problem with that, i'm talking about designing one, VERY different. Make a toggle, modified from how Starmade does it.

 

Creative mode on,

-You have access to unlimited resources

-The project is yours

-Those with permission have freedom to work on it while they are also in creative mode

-While in creative mode it cannot be used to fight in pvp, it will deal no damage to enemy ships

-It cannot be used to mine or gather resources

-Weapons fire will only damage base terrain such as untouched asteroids

-When exiting creative mode you port back to where you entered it so it can't be used for travel

-The only thing that can be transferred off of the project is the blue print. 

-Can only have 1 project active at a time

 

Creative mode off,

normal

 

EDIT: Just realized I double posted serves my brain for working in 2 directions at once.

Edited by Wardonis
Oops, double posted

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