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Should Larger Ships Require Multiple Players?

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I know this topic has come up before, JC has mentioned the idea, and as far as I know a final decision hasn't been made. Please correct me if I'm wrong. So, this thread is for discussing the pros and cons of multi-player ship piloting/fighting, and whether or not this type of system would be fun in the context of Dual Universe.

 

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Personally, I love the idea, and would really like to see it in DU. The added combat depth, teamwork, and strategy would make the game much more fun and immersive. It would make spaceships feel more like an actual ship you're piloting than a character skin or suit of armor you happen to be wearing, like in EVE. It would also place a power curve on individuals, so one guy in a super epic battleship can't take out an entire fleet himself.

 

That being said, I'm sure some people will be understandably annoyed that they can't fly the Enterprise around the galaxy all by themselves. It also gives large entities an advantage over smaller entities in some regards. For example: In EVE, I was in a scrappy Low-Sec pirate corp, but we still had a Titan to bridge us around places. In DU, I would hope that something like a Titan would require a bunch of people to fly properly, but that would prevent small groups from using that type of ship effectively... which may or may not be a bad thing.

 

Overall, the difference seems to be the degree to which we want to force people into playing as a group. Thoughts? 

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JC said that they are making the game so that 1 person can not fly a large ship effectively.

 

I believe it was this interview he said it in

 

Edit: And to answer your question since the ships are infinity scalable it would be game breaking to allow one person the fly large ships.

 

They have not stated what exactly will be stopping this from happening other then you need a player for each weapon.

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My thoughts are;

 

DU is very much focused on player driven mechanics and player interaction.

LUA scripts are limited as not to replace humans.

 

If you want to command The Enterprise you need a crew. I couldnt be more opposed to the idea of a 1 man army. Because thats what it boils down to, in my opinion.

 

The human factor is 1 of the reasons behind me following and backing the game, to explain my motivations behind this post.

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JC said that they are making the game so that 1 person can not fly a large ship effectively.

 

 

Yes, "effectively", but what exactly does that mean. Or, more importantly for our purposes, what should it mean?

 

That being said, I don't entirely agree that each player should only having access to one gun. I would prefer that players control batteries of guns (say 3-4?), just so you can have tons of guns on every ship, because more lasers flying around hitting things is better, am I right? Something akin to the EVE POS gunner system, where higher skill levels let you use more guns, would be great. That would also increase the necessity for specialization, which is something NQ has said they want. 

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Yes, "effectively", but what exactly does that mean. Or, more importantly for our purposes, what should it mean?

It means that on a 1:1 engagement, a 50-man crewed ship would beat a 1-man crewed ship.

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A lone wolf will never be able to beat a multi-crew for many reasons:

 

- each turret needs a player (GDC meetup video)

- LUA scripted turrets/things have reduced (~60%? Or something) efficiency

- more crew means you can do stuff simultaneously

- solo players should be able to fly small vessels best but should fail in trying to fly a battleship

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A lone wolf will never be able to beat a multi-crew for many reasons:

 

- each turret needs a player (GDC meetup video)

- LUA scripted turrets/things have reduced (~60%? Or something) efficiency

- more crew means you can do stuff simultaneously

- solo players should be able to fly small vessels best but should fail in trying to fly a battleship

 

It's JC's game, but I believe the GDC meetup quote was spoken off the cuff, and not completely thought through.  Yeah, I know... That sounds pretty arrogant.  From my understanding of the devblogs, that quote wouldn't mesh with elements, their DPUs,  and LUA scripting.  Given the interaction described in the devblogs, I could envision an LUA script controlling two turrets, just like a script could control two thrusters.

 

Now the efficacy, of LUA over an actual person isn't in doubt.  A person has much more control.  But I also don't believe there needs to be an LUA "nerf".  At least not until testing proves that its overpowered.

 

More crew DOES mean you can do more stuff simultaneously.  So, the Lone Wolf is most definitely at a disadvantage.

 

In my opinion, a player should be able to attempt to build a one man ship as big as they want.  If they can pull off a one man battleship (not likely), then go for it.

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That being said, I don't entirely agree that each player should only having access to one gun. I would prefer that players control batteries of guns (say 3-4?), just so you can have tons of guns on every ship, because more lasers flying around hitting things is better, am I right? Something akin to the EVE POS gunner system, where higher skill levels let you use more guns, would be great. That would also increase the necessity for specialization, which is something NQ has said they want. 

 

Script a battery of guns to follow the aim of a central, player controlled gun and fire when the player fires?

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It's JC's game, but I believe the GDC meetup quote was spoken off the cuff, and not completely thought through.  Yeah, I know... That sounds pretty arrogant.  From my understanding of the devblogs, that quote wouldn't mesh with elements, their DPUs,  and LUA scripting.  Given the interaction described in the devblogs, I could envision an LUA script controlling two turrets, just like a script could control two thrusters.

 

Now the efficacy, of LUA over an actual person isn't in doubt.  A person has much more control.  But I also don't believe there needs to be an LUA "nerf".  At least not until testing proves that its overpowered.

 

More crew DOES mean you can do more stuff simultaneously.  So, the Lone Wolf is most definitely at a disadvantage.

 

In my opinion, a player should be able to attempt to build a one man ship as big as they want.  If they can pull off a one man battleship (not likely), then go for it.

 

I'm in the same boat personally. Disadvantage or not, it's nice for there to be an option for every style versus limiting. If that means solo flying a battleship, then so be it, let it be a testament to whoever setup the scripting for it. 

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Script a battery of guns to follow the aim of a central, player controlled gun and fire when the player fires?

 

Sure, but with LUA scripted guns doing less damage, that's a disadvantage. Generally speaking, I think controlling more than one gun at a time is more fun, up to a certain point of course.

 

That being said, I think 1 gun per person is a mistake because of what it will do to the meta. I'm afraid of a meta where the most effective combat method is strapping the largest gun you can find to as small a ship as will carry it, because those ships would be faster, more maneuverable, and more flexible than a large ship with the same number of guns. There needs to be something that makes having a big ship with lots of guns viable, but not the only option. 

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There hasnt been any details on LUA "nerfed" weapons. You cant confirm the existence of a nerf at this time and whether the nerf is "less damage" vs decreased accuracy.

 

All we know is that it will be less effective.

 

Make way for my spinal mounted super railgun attached to my phalic shaped ship.

 

You're gonna see all sorts of builds. And I would say "Biggest gun on the smallest ship" is a valid strategy.

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I think the size of the crew should depend the number of elements that need to be operated, not the size of the ship.  Elements would include not only weapons, but things like sensors and shields.  It would be reasonable for a very large freighter to require fewer crew members than a much smaller warship.

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I think the size of the crew should depend the number of elements that need to be operated, not the size of the ship.  Elements would include not only weapons, but things like sensors and shields.  It would be reasonable for a very large freighter to require fewer crew members than a much smaller warship.

 

So much this.

 

If I want to create a massive ship the size of the moon, but it only does one thing... and that's thrust forward... I should be able to.

 

However, a more intricate ship should be run with more players.  I'm pretty sure that's what most people mean by a larger ship though, one with more guns... more goodies.

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Yeah, as others have said. You can have any size you want. But you will not be able to operate multiple cannons and other extra functions outside movement alone.

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I think that the whole system regarding how many players are needed is a good idea for a more immersive game-play style, however if people code up an 'AI' of sorts, it should be just as efficient (and possibly even more efficient) than a crew of actual people.
Of course there would be limits, you wouldn't be able to have the 'AI' do much more than perform ship maneuvers, fire several weapons, and maybe set off an alarm upon the sensor picking up something, but it doesn't seem to make sense to me to nerf, or reduce the effectiveness of LUA scripting.

Thinking about the LUA scripting makes me think of the show Dark Matter and the Androids role on board their ship. The Android was able to do many things with the ship, by connecting to its systems through a neural network. It could defend the ship and perform maneuvers very effectively. Not that I am suggesting we would have an android available to our ships, but the possibility to have a smart LUA script do similar things could be possible, couldn't it?

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I think the BIGGEST advantage to multiplayer ships is that you can have multiple LUA scripts running simultaneously. All on multiple players client PCs.

 

You can attempt the same thing with one script, but your PC has limited resources to execute the function/loop. Multiplayer ships will be running LUA in parallel, and will be naturally faster.

 

Im assuming we can only run one script at a time.

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If a script can control two thrusters or two turrets, why couldnt it control one thruster and one turret?

JC said. For a turret you need a player. I don't doubt you can use scripts to run an extra or two outside of your main but it would probably be fixed in aim or wonky to move. But a battle ship with 10 cannons? I don't think one man can use that or even should be able to.

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We'll see

We will yes but I struggle to see why anyone would want to replace humans.

And coding efficient AI is against the lore.

 

In a non hostile, non threatening way I would like to know...

Why do you want to fly a 1 person army?

-is it because of a game fantasy?

-dont like to depend on other people?

 

Multi crew is a unique feature of DU why would you want to get away from that?

Sure humans can be stupid but thats part of the story.

 

I feel the amount of live functions/features of a construct should be tied to crew size. Fly the death star if you must but also being able to repel the entire rebel fleet? No I dont think so.

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I don't really care if someone is able to pilot a battleship alone or not - whatever playstyle he chooses it should be possible. But this game is a MMO with specialized skills so it only makes sense that a reasonably able multi-crew ship will always be able to kill a loner on a 1vs1 in the same ship. Otherwise it would just not make any sense

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From a lore perspective, the LUA scripting is limited as to not recreate AI that can kill us. It makes no sense for someone to create an automated battleship when combat automation is prohibited by the society. Maybe you could link multiple turrets together so that they can all be fired by one person, but can only fire in one direction or at one target.

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