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Dealing with Griefers/Resource Depletion

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My question stems for the long term and short. And thats the fact that in the thousands of players that are going to join. [Moderated]Unpleasant behaviors[/Moderated] will emerge. This is relevant in ANY sandbox game. I know you can assign permissions but what about things like ramming? Using the initial resources your given and wasting them on a ram would be detrimental to the resource economy! Speaking of it. What happens when the resource on the planets that we are given runs out? Will resource generate randomly? And what happens after the server has been up for so long? It'll look like the surface of the moon! And how would updates effect gameplay? New things and mechanics getting changed and added. And what about reloading into the game after being gone? How would you load all the changes to the voxels?

Please awenser my questions. Thank you

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My question stems for the long term and short. And thats the fact that in the thousands of players that are going to join.  [Moderated]Unpleasant behaviors[/Moderated] will emerge. This is relevant in ANY sandbox game. I know you can assign permissions but what about things like ramming? Using the initial resources your given and wasting them on a ram would be detrimental to the resource economy! Speaking of it. What happens when the resource on the planets that we are given runs out? Will resource generate randomly? And what happens after the server has been up for so long? It'll look like the surface of the moon! And how would updates effect gameplay? New things and mechanics getting changed and added. And what about reloading into the game after being gone? How would you load all the changes to the voxels?

 

Please awenser my questions. Thank you

Ramming will not be a thing, crash damage of any kind will not be a thing, collision damage will not be a thing. It takes up too much computing resources for a big multiplayer game like this and it encourages destruction, so the devs have already stated that it's not going to happen.

 

We don't know if veins will replenish on planets, or if they are finite, but planets are big enough that running out of resources shouldn't be a problem. If it does become a problem, there might be some fixes (like re-setting certain zones just on the start planet, resource charities, option to start on a fresher palnet, etc).

 

Your machine won't need to download the world in the same way you do in Space Engineers for example, the server tracks the changes in the voxels and your machine will only load your local area, which will scale in size based on player density near you. They actually have some neat tech for this!

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Well, there wil be no resets unless something very very bad happens. Wizard covered mostly everything.

 

They have some special server magic and it only saves the altered voxels.

 

The way the markets work should prevent any place from become void of resources even if technically everything useful is mined out.

 

Theres also several organisations that want to see the beginer noobie planet remain accessible to new players so its unlikely newbies will get stuck there. NQ could do something if they HAD to about it

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I do wonder about how that will work with everyone starting on the same planet. Perhaps they will make it so there are multiple starting points once the game has been going for a while. Or maybe there will be public transportation networks that can help people get to the untapped areas.

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My question stems for the long term and short. And thats the fact that in the thousands of players that are going to join.  [Moderated]Unpleasant behaviors[/Moderated] will emerge. This is relevant in ANY sandbox game. I know you can assign permissions but what about things like ramming? Using the initial resources your given and wasting them on a ram would be detrimental to the resource economy! Speaking of it. What happens when the resource on the planets that we are given runs out? Will resource generate randomly? And what happens after the server has been up for so long? It'll look like the surface of the moon! And how would updates effect gameplay? New things and mechanics getting changed and added. And what about reloading into the game after being gone? How would you load all the changes to the voxels?

 

Please awenser my questions. Thank you

Ramming and easily blowing a hole in a ship is unlikely. Combat will be about knocking out ship systems and finishing with a boarding action and a hack to take the ship. 

 

On resource limits a 100 km planet has 125000 cubic kilometres of rock. If it has only 1000 ore seams per km2  that's a lot of ore. So in a couple of years 20000 people will have to dig though every cubic km to find every ore seam. We are not going to find every ore seam. Australia has sites where the gold rush never mined out the ore. Easier and cheap mines were founds and so the miners moved on leaving some ore untouched. One is 40 km from where I live. It was reopened in the 1980's and is still being mined today 20 years later. 

 

It should be possible to do planetary restoration on a grand scale. Repairing mined out landscapes can be a simple task if rock, dirt and grass are replaceable without a claim. It's easy to create an org to beautify spawn and repair the world. It's even possible to make a filling voxel cheaply to fill holes. It's a simple matter to make restoration an org project or a Nova Quark market NPC transaction.

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Unless NQ have some ideas up their sleeve, I think both resource depletion and environmental destruction are going to be an issue, most especially in and around spawn points like the Arkship. I've used the analogy before - if you have ever been to a music festival everything looks at best shabby after the third day. How much worse will it be when the festival goes on for years.

 

We don't just have to be concerned with people removing voxels, they will also be randomly placing voxels. Much of this will be people legitimately attempting to get the hang of the game, while some will be trolling by building chasms, walls and generally just making life difficult.

 

While I do appreciate that people may try to self-regulate we should not underestimate how determined and destructive we can be.

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Whether or not environment destruction becomes an issue, one way to restore a planet's surface would be by creating a material recycler. You could take virtually any object or material, and turn it into a lower element. So you could take busted ship parts that aren't worth fixing, and turn them into dirt. You could then use that dirt to help fill in a crater in the planet's surface. Maybe doing this would grant you xp toward some kind of "stewardship" skill.....not sure what type of useful stuff could come of that, maybe a reduced cost to build things on that planet, or as an added bonus to any skill you use on the planet?

 

Just an idea...not sure if it's feasible.

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I think that devs have said that it may be that we can fill areas with dirt (no resources just dirt) so that terrain destruction won't be an issue for building, aesthetics ect. If you want an area filled in just fill it with dirt as most likely no one will mine it if there are no resources left to gain. Don't think its confirmed but something they might be considering

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I think that devs have said that it may be that we can fill areas with dirt (no resources just dirt) so that terrain destruction won't be an issue for building, aesthetics ect. If you want an area filled in just fill it with dirt as most likely no one will mine it if there are no resources left to gain. Don't think its confirmed but something they might be considering

Dirt-fill is actually a pretty darn good solution, but I've gotta say that a mined-out area could look REALLY cool, and I wouldn't want to risk people's underground base tunnel-entrances to cave-in (that would be kinda neat too though).

 

We might find that the size of the start planet will be big enough to make this a non-issue, plus I'm one of those players that helps clean up unsightly areas in games like Minecraft. If the start planet ends up becoming a metropolis, there will likely be landscaping characters helping fix up the place.

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It would help if grass would grow back.

And eventually trees.

 

If I do a really big excavation during my quest for resources I wouldnt want it to just disappear. It would break the rule of persistance and I think it looks cool.

 

If after some time someone wants to fill it up, go for it if you thinks its worth the time and effort. :P

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I'm not sure what you mean by "landscaping characters", WOT, but if you meant some kinda NPC then I like it. The idea of a team of NPC robots flying about the place filling holes and demolishing structures (perhaps just around the Arkship) is appealing. This way the initial spawn point is kept in order leaving everyone free to trash the rest of the planet as they see fit.

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I'm not sure what you mean by "landscaping characters", WOT, but if you meant some kinda NPC then I like it. The idea of a team of NPC robots flying about the place filling holes and demolishing structures (perhaps just around the Arkship) is appealing. This way the initial spawn point is kept in order leaving everyone free to trash the rest of the planet as they see fit.

I meant players that were willing to clean the place up now and then lol.

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It would help if grass would grow back.

And eventually trees.

 

If I do a really big excavation during my quest for resources I wouldnt want it to just disappear. It would break the rule of persistance and I think it looks cool.

 

If after some time someone wants to fill it up, go for it if you thinks its worth the time and effort. :P

 

Or you could have designated mining tiles/hexes in the secure zone which can be mined out for a time and then the tiles are rotated, kind of like crop rotation. As the mined out tile stays "fallow" for a few days/weeks real time, it slowly and automatically recovers to the original state. If the recovery is slow enough players won't really notice it happening (kind of like watching grass grow) and the sever load should be almost nil. Once it's fully recovered, it's ready to be rotated to "mining allowed" again.

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Once it's fully recovered, it's ready to be rotated to "mining allowed" again.

What would be the point?

Resources dont regenerate so you would have to mine out dirt every time you want to go deeper. And I am quite sure that more precious ore will be found deeper then iron or copper. At least I hope so.

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What you call griefing I may call warfare or piracy.   I should, in a sandbox, be able to play the bad guy.

 

Having said that, I would hope that there are safer zones (not entirely safe zones that are narratively dead), but consequences for bad actions just as my piracy should be the consequence of carelessness or greed.   

 

In short, a proper sec system like EVE's where over here all bets are off, but over there the police are 'fierce'.     

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What you call griefing I may call warfare or piracy. I should, in a sandbox, be able to play the bad guy.

 

Having said that, I would hope that there are safer zones (not entirely safe zones that are narratively dead), but consequences for bad actions just as my piracy should be the consequence of carelessness or greed.

 

In short, a proper sec system like EVE's where over here all bets are off, but over there the police are 'fierce'.

 

This would be a player-driven system, where players who want to protect the appearance/resources of the area would actually have to get actively involved in doing so, I like it!

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It would help if grass would grow back.

And eventually trees.

 

If I do a really big excavation during my quest for resources I wouldnt want it to just disappear. It would break the rule of persistance and I think it looks cool.

 

If after some time someone wants to fill it up, go for it if you thinks its worth the time and effort. :P

NMS handled that quite nicely.

If you blasted a cave, the cave would remain, but within an hour grasses and debris would begin to fill it.

It would begin to look like the procedurally generated caves.

 

The growth of grasses and trees should probably occur at an even slower rate in DU.

I think it might conflict with the devs vision of resource placement and availability, though.

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What you call griefing I may call warfare or piracy.   I should, in a sandbox, be able to play the bad guy.

 

Having said that, I would hope that there are safer zones (not entirely safe zones that are narratively dead), but consequences for bad actions just as my piracy should be the consequence of carelessness or greed.   

 

I think the Griefing concern is ruining the aesthetics by buildings ugly structures and wholes just to ruin the game for others.

 

The Devs have made it clear that resources (except possibly around the arkship) will not regenerate, and they shouldn't.  A big part of the game mechanics is the limited nature of resources in an area forcing organizations to move on.

 

A market for transporting new players to unmined safe zones will certainly develop if needed.  I don't think this will be a problem and I think everyone should spawn at the original arkship, even after the area is depleted.  The original safe zone will organically develop into hubs for organizations who will gladly take new players to unmined safezones as a part of recruitment or just for some cash.

 

I also don't think the world will turn "moon" like.  Strip mining will not be a good option because they will be prime targets for raid.  They will be impossible to secure.

 

The Devs have confirmed that the game will not have realistic physics for planetary structures like caves (it will be like minecraft).  So I think it's fairly safe to assume that players will do the majority of their mining under the surface with limited entry points.

 

I'm actually very excited about these gameplay mechanics because there will always be the risk of running into another player/groups mining shafts or being raided. 

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What you call griefing I may call warfare or piracy.   I should, in a sandbox, be able to play the bad guy.

 

Having said that, I would hope that there are safer zones (not entirely safe zones that are narratively dead), but consequences for bad actions just as my piracy should be the consequence of carelessness or greed.   

 

In short, a proper sec system like EVE's where over here all bets are off, but over there the police are 'fierce'.     

see this is what im afraid of! i down wanna leave (and by leave i mean disconnect) my base that ive built to come back and find that its been raided! greifing is a thing. its not warfare or piracy, piracy is spending time in the game and then building up a ship yourself to steal others stuff, greifing is players getting quick resoursces to do small amounts of damage to important bits of things, and stealing things then just killing themselves in a random location to delete the items! piracy and greifing are 2 VERY different things.

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see this is what im afraid of! i down wanna leave (and by leave i mean disconnect) my base that ive built to come back and find that its been raided! greifing is a thing. its not warfare or piracy, piracy is spending time in the game and then building up a ship yourself to steal others stuff, greifing is players getting quick resoursces to do small amounts of damage to important bits of things, and stealing things then just killing themselves in a random location to delete the items! piracy and greifing are 2 VERY different things.

 

 

To me the point is to make a game where it's almost impossible for griefers to cause their grief.

 

Griefing is something that is sort of hard to define.  But to me it is when one player stops another player from enjoying the game.  And there is nothing that player can do about it.  That last part is important.

 

In Dual the idea is that there will be safe zones provided by arcships for you to hang out in and build your base.  As long as you stay inside the safe zone you should be 100% safe.  It will also be possible to create safe zones or combat free zones outside the arcship safe zone, but i think these will have vulnerabilities that will need to be protected.

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To me the point is to make a game where it's almost impossible for griefers to cause their grief.

 

Griefing is something that is sort of hard to define.  But to me it is when one player stops another player from enjoying the game.  And there is nothing that player can do about it.  That last part is important.

 

In Dual the idea is that there will be safe zones provided by arcships for you to hang out in and build your base.  As long as you stay inside the safe zone you should be 100% safe.  It will also be possible to create safe zones or combat free zones outside the arcship safe zone, but i think these will have vulnerabilities that will need to be protected.

 

Yes you are 100% safe in the safezone, but outside you are forced to interact with other players as they wish. Consent not needed.

Griefers and pirates are avoided with ease if you know how, plus there will be some mechanics to stop griefing in particular. But if someone wants to ruin your day by killing you repeatedly and puts effort in that (like a spy network, paying people to tell him where you are, getting to know your location of the resurrection node, getting a team together to search for you, ....) it should be possible - albeit at a high price.

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Yes you are 100% safe in the safezone, but outside you are forced to interact with other players as they wish. Consent not needed.

Griefers and pirates are avoided with ease if you know how, plus there will be some mechanics to stop griefing in particular. But if someone wants to ruin your day by killing you repeatedly and puts effort in that (like a spy network, paying people to tell him where you are, getting to know your location of the resurrection node, getting a team together to search for you, ....) it should be possible - albeit at a high price.

Not 100% safe, but verry very much safer than outside. 

 

 

If a person is 100% safe in a safezone, it would make it impossible for wars to have conculsions. A faction would be barricaded inside a safezone, wih wals built around them in it and just wait till reinforcements come.

 

 

I only expect the original Arkship Safezone to be safe. Any other safezone will run on power-cells of some kind, quite possibly being able to be sieged as well.

 

 

And in my opinion, only the starting Safezone should be 100% safe, as it's a place for newbros to experience the game before heading out into the post-apocalyptic wasteland :P

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Not 100% safe, but verry very much safer than outside. 

 

 

If a person is 100% safe in a safezone, it would make it impossible for wars to have conculsions. A faction would be barricaded inside a safezone, wih wals built around them in it and just wait till reinforcements come.

 

 

I only expect the original Arkship Safezone to be safe. Any other safezone will run on power-cells of some kind, quite possibly being able to be sieged as well.

 

 

And in my opinion, only the starting Safezone should be 100% safe, as it's a place for newbros to experience the game before heading out into the post-apocalyptic wasteland :P

yes I was talking about the ark ship safe zone.

 

In the protection bubbles you can create yourself you have to be raidable by various means (as talked about in the shield timer thread)

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see this is what im afraid of! i down wanna leave (and by leave i mean disconnect) my base that ive built to come back and find that its been raided! greifing is a thing. its not warfare or piracy, piracy is spending time in the game and then building up a ship yourself to steal others stuff, greifing is players getting quick resoursces to do small amounts of damage to important bits of things, and stealing things then just killing themselves in a random location to delete the items! piracy and greifing are 2 VERY different things.

"

Yes, yes, piracy and griefing are two different things in some worlds, but in a sandbox, the line is more often than not, merged. 

 

Quote from the Iron Man 2 movie: 

 

 "I'd very much like to leave my house unlocked when I go out, but this isn't Canada..." 

 

The point is, whether or not you like griefing (or "piracy"), it will happen and it will happen to a lot of people. 

 

You have stuff you value? Take the extra trouble and stow it in the Arkzone or get some "influential and powerful" people to secure it for you. Just remember, jewellery is best appreciated when it's worn, not when it's locked up in a container. You could even play the game in "high-sec" (very secure areas) for as long as you want - just don't get frustrated if the game becomes monotonous and lacklustre. There are people who have made themselves rich in Eve by staying in the high-sec alone, but believe me, greater risk = greater reward. Nobody will stop you from playing the game in a fireproof suit with tons of extinguishers by your side, but as always, new discoveries are made by trying new things out. 

 

You certainly won't find a pot of gold by staring at the rainbow. 

 

Let's say someone destroys your base, you have every right to team up with some people or place a bounty on the head of the aggressor. In more cases than not, for the right price, you could ruin his fun. There -- are you now a griefer, because you ruined his fun? No. 

 

Just the same way, anyone can decide to ruin your fun. The best way to stop that from happening is to let them know that you'll ruin theirs' if they piss you off one too many times.  

 

Griefers grief anyone they want to grief and when griefers grief griefers, grab some popcorn, soda and laugh your heart out. 

 

It's a sandbox game, dear friend. The rules are made, enforced and ignored by the players. 

 

Where there is no law, there is no sin.

 

"

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